5 ms·

Oof, European salaries are absurdly low. When I first left the USA I was thinking "OK I'll get a nice job in Amsterdam or Denmark" .. Then I saw the cost of liv

Oof, European salaries are absurdly low. When I first left the USA I was thinking "OK I'll get a nice job in Amsterdam or Denmark" .. Then I saw the cost of living and the low salaries, and waved away that dream.

Cryptonic 4y ago
Yes I also though about a move from Germany to the Netherlands but looks like Software is nothing they see worth of paying more than 60-70k€. Here in Germany I earn 110k€, but this is close to the max you can expect as Software Developer. Maybe 120-140k€ if you are a high value asset that bunkers critical knowledge (My company calls it subject matter expert - basically somebody who wrote critical, but unmaintainable code for a decade or more).
atemerev 4y ago
Exactly. Here, a software engineer is mostly just another low middle class profession, not even the upper middle. US immigration is hard enough, otherwise half of European software engineers would have moved to the Valley already. (And no, "cheap medicine" and "cheap education" do not exactly cover the difference, at least for software engineers).
yardie 4y ago
Worked there as well and our son was constantly haranguing me about wanting to move back. Had to sit him down and explain what my compensation after taxes were and the cost of living compared to the US. He only remembers France as where his family and former schoolmates are.
- CalRobert 4y ago
  :-( We're looking at NL specifically so our kids can have some freedom, ride their bikes and take public transport, and not be prisoners of suburbia. But the wages are pretty terrible; I've been working remote for US companies (set up my own consulting firm so invoicing is easy) and that's worked pretty well. We'll see if the recession kills it.
  - yardie 4y ago
    Possibly the opposite! The Euro drop in price has made it competitive for US companies to hire engineers in Europe. The only con is the difference in timezone. Central/South America still has that advantage.
    - CalRobert 4y ago
      Yeah, I just started a contract denominated in USD which has been nice. Time zones are kinda annoying.
2rsf 4y ago
I don't want to pen THIS discussion again, but... the difference is not that big especially if you calculate risk and family in. I live in Sweden with our "known" high taxes and as far as I can tell from conversations with friends and colleagues is that our QUALITY of life is not that different. Of course, YMMV especially if you were a big shot in a big shot place with no family to support, young and healthy.
- pembrook 4y ago
  I don't want to offer the canned rebuttal to this either, but, the free healthcare and education don't make up for a salary potential that maxes out at 2-3X lower than what you could make in the US (especially combined with much lower taxes). The fact is, the Nordics are de-facto the best place in the world to be below average. They're not a great value if your skills offer you above-average earning potential. Sure, your QOL might be similar while working. But in the US, you can retire by 45 on a FAANG salary (even with a family!). That's virtually impossible on the entire continent of Europe as a salaryman.
  - nmarinov 4y ago
    > Sure, your QOL might be similar while working. But in the US, you can retire by 45 on a FAANG salary (even with a family!). That's virtually impossible on the entire continent of Europe as a salaryman. Common idea but in IT it's absolutely possible to retire by 30 in several EU countries. Bulgaria, Romania and it might take more time but you can add Poland and several more to that list. Sure it's not Western Europe but then again the US is not just SV.
yrgulation 4y ago
Try east europe, pays better and lower taxes. Standard of living is improving and accommodation is way better. You have room for growth as well. At least that’s what i see among software engs in Romania. Net pay is lower but take home is better. Heard poland and bulgaria arent far off. Ukraine was also good before the war.
- 988747 4y ago
  In Poland you can make close to $100k per year (as a contractor, not employee), and only have like 18% tax rate on this (12% income tax plus social security payments). So you earn like $6-6.5k monthly after taxes, and all your living expenses are maybe $1.5k. You can save the rest towards your apartment/house (and you need $130-200k for that, or 3-5 years of saving).
  - atraac 4y ago
    That's exactly what I'm doing right now except I get around 70-80k eur as a contractor. Take home as a single 20something guy is insane and allows you to buy a decent house for cash in 3-4 years near a major city. The only thing most people outside don't talk about when it comes to Poland is our insanely terrible and corrupted government, lack of teachers, nurses, doctors, much higher inflation recently, regressing in women's rights, bad air quality in most big cities etc. Public healthcare is in so bad state that you need to go private anyway to get anything done. Also half of our society is still really religious, close minded and anti-west, it's slowly changing but Poland is still pretty hard place to live, f.e. for LGBT people. All those things are stopping me from actually commiting to staying in Poland, besides having my family I hate almost everything about this country.
Melchori 4y ago
Ah come on... You can get a good stable salary in Amsterdam and have a great life...
- IaacForHire 4y ago
  I'm not sure about great. If I had family beyond my wife, sure I think Western Europe would be incredible. Since I don't, I choose to live in a poor country instead of a Western European country. Bought a flat for $100k, spend about $1k per month, and when I am able to find work I put 90% of it into savings.
hiq 4y ago
> European salaries are absurdly low. Counterexample: Zurich, Switzerland.
oxff 4y ago
I know many devs who abandoned the 'high quality of life' of Western Europe for higher pay elsewhere. It is really not all that glamorous to be a dev here.

Cryptonic 4y ago

Yes I also though about a move from Germany to the Netherlands but looks like Software is nothing they see worth of paying more than 60-70k€. Here in Germany I earn 110k€, but this is close to the max you can expect as Software Developer. Maybe 120-140k€ if you are a high value asset that bunkers critical knowledge (My company calls it subject matter expert - basically somebody who wrote critical, but unmaintainable code for a decade or more).

atemerev 4y ago

Exactly. Here, a software engineer is mostly just another low middle class profession, not even the upper middle. US immigration is hard enough, otherwise half of European software engineers would have moved to the Valley already. (And no, "cheap medicine" and "cheap education" do not exactly cover the difference, at least for software engineers).

yardie 4y ago

Worked there as well and our son was constantly haranguing me about wanting to move back. Had to sit him down and explain what my compensation after taxes were and the cost of living compared to the US. He only remembers France as where his family and former schoolmates are.

CalRobert 4y ago
:-( We're looking at NL specifically so our kids can have some freedom, ride their bikes and take public transport, and not be prisoners of suburbia. But the wages are pretty terrible; I've been working remote for US companies (set up my own consulting firm so invoicing is easy) and that's worked pretty well. We'll see if the recession kills it.
- yardie 4y ago
  Possibly the opposite! The Euro drop in price has made it competitive for US companies to hire engineers in Europe. The only con is the difference in timezone. Central/South America still has that advantage.
  - CalRobert 4y ago
    Yeah, I just started a contract denominated in USD which has been nice. Time zones are kinda annoying.

2rsf 4y ago

I don't want to pen THIS discussion again, but... the difference is not that big especially if you calculate risk and family in. I live in Sweden with our "known" high taxes and as far as I can tell from conversations with friends and colleagues is that our QUALITY of life is not that different. Of course, YMMV especially if you were a big shot in a big shot place with no family to support, young and healthy.

pembrook 4y ago
I don't want to offer the canned rebuttal to this either, but, the free healthcare and education don't make up for a salary potential that maxes out at 2-3X lower than what you could make in the US (especially combined with much lower taxes). The fact is, the Nordics are de-facto the best place in the world to be below average. They're not a great value if your skills offer you above-average earning potential. Sure, your QOL might be similar while working. But in the US, you can retire by 45 on a FAANG salary (even with a family!). That's virtually impossible on the entire continent of Europe as a salaryman.
- nmarinov 4y ago
  > Sure, your QOL might be similar while working. But in the US, you can retire by 45 on a FAANG salary (even with a family!). That's virtually impossible on the entire continent of Europe as a salaryman. Common idea but in IT it's absolutely possible to retire by 30 in several EU countries. Bulgaria, Romania and it might take more time but you can add Poland and several more to that list. Sure it's not Western Europe but then again the US is not just SV.

yrgulation 4y ago

Try east europe, pays better and lower taxes. Standard of living is improving and accommodation is way better. You have room for growth as well. At least that’s what i see among software engs in Romania. Net pay is lower but take home is better. Heard poland and bulgaria arent far off. Ukraine was also good before the war.

988747 4y ago
In Poland you can make close to $100k per year (as a contractor, not employee), and only have like 18% tax rate on this (12% income tax plus social security payments). So you earn like $6-6.5k monthly after taxes, and all your living expenses are maybe $1.5k. You can save the rest towards your apartment/house (and you need $130-200k for that, or 3-5 years of saving).
- atraac 4y ago
  That's exactly what I'm doing right now except I get around 70-80k eur as a contractor. Take home as a single 20something guy is insane and allows you to buy a decent house for cash in 3-4 years near a major city. The only thing most people outside don't talk about when it comes to Poland is our insanely terrible and corrupted government, lack of teachers, nurses, doctors, much higher inflation recently, regressing in women's rights, bad air quality in most big cities etc. Public healthcare is in so bad state that you need to go private anyway to get anything done. Also half of our society is still really religious, close minded and anti-west, it's slowly changing but Poland is still pretty hard place to live, f.e. for LGBT people. All those things are stopping me from actually commiting to staying in Poland, besides having my family I hate almost everything about this country.

Melchori 4y ago

Ah come on... You can get a good stable salary in Amsterdam and have a great life...

IaacForHire 4y ago
I'm not sure about great. If I had family beyond my wife, sure I think Western Europe would be incredible. Since I don't, I choose to live in a poor country instead of a Western European country. Bought a flat for $100k, spend about $1k per month, and when I am able to find work I put 90% of it into savings.

hiq 4y ago

> European salaries are absurdly low. Counterexample: Zurich, Switzerland.

oxff 4y ago

I know many devs who abandoned the 'high quality of life' of Western Europe for higher pay elsewhere. It is really not all that glamorous to be a dev here.