5 ms·

In Europe they've probably gone down the past decade I'd say.

by oxff 4y ago

that_guy_iain 4y ago
For me, it seems they're going up. 5-years ago, I would ask for 65,000€ in Berlin and that would be considered extremely high for my role now it seems 75,000€ is where the asking price is.
- IaacForHire 4y ago
  So 3% per year, or just a little bitover inflation. Still, better than the US where we don't really get inflationary raises.
finikytou 4y ago
in pure Euro no they went up a bit but definitly lower than the cost of living increase. the problem is that in the past decade Europe welcomed Cyprus, Czech Republic,Estonia,Hungary,Latvia, Lithuania,Malta , Poland ,Slovakia,Slovenia,Bulgaria ,Romania, Croatia. Most of those countries were below living standards/salaries of western europe while having for some of them a very strong education system. Romania for instance trains a lot of good devs/it ops. All this qualified workforce can work in any country of europe. Add to this qualified workforce from syria/turkey for germany, North Africa for france and you see that while European companies did not grow like the US one, the pool of talent they can grab is larger than ever. the cake became smaller and Europe did everything it could toblock ambitious tech companies to grow and use the stock market as a wealth tool. they don't even understand that they operate in a global market and that if they tax or limit growth in their own country then the companies will move out. Dublin and Amsterdam for instance became hubs for this reason. There is also the perception in the old world that being a "Techie" is like being a white collar factory worker. Developers are definitly not considered as stars in Europe. Most of the engineers in europe that want to make money work for an american company.
- walthamstow 4y ago
  All the countries you mention apart from Bulgaria, Romania and Croatia were admitted in 2004, which is nearly 20 years ago now.
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    The effects took time to manifest. Now they slowed down.
  - finikytou 4y ago
    it is europe. things go slow but once they are in motion... they first used those countries for lowering blue collar jobs (construction for instance) then white collar, the cloud/saas craze was an accelerator. the covid is one too.
- badpun 4y ago
  > Most of the engineers in europe that want to make money work for an american company. From my experience, most of engineers in Europe who want to make money work are contracting. Contracting money can be similar to what the FAANGs offer here (outside of Switzerland), but taxes are often lower and you don't have to debase yourself with multistage leetcode interviews and intracompany promotion games. However, the US companies may start to up their game here salary-wise - I was recently contacted by a recruiter of a Tier 2 US tech company who said that the TC for a tech lead position in their branch in Poland is around 220k EUR. I hope this is a part of a larger trend.
  - finikytou 4y ago
    in many european countries tax will be 50% for contracting. to make 150k you need to make 300k... you cant take days-off,sick-days, might even need to make more for retirment match vs normal job... it is really not a good way to make money
    - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
      >in many european countries tax will be 50% for contracting This! Contracting is the way if your country of residence has low taxes for freelancers, but if its' the same or higher as a FTE then it sucks.
koevet 4y ago
Not sure about salaries for permanent positions, but contractor rates have definitively gone up in the last 10 years for me.
- tluyben2 4y ago
  They have been rising for the past 30 years for me, but indeed faster the past 10 years.
onion2k 4y ago
In Europe they've probably gone down the past decade I'd say. Outside of the technology hubs like London dev salaries have gone up significantly, largely due to developers being able to work remotely for companies in the technology hubs. I imagine that's a large part of what's exerting downward pressure on wages in those areas.
0x000xca0xfe 4y ago
Yup, just started as an embedded software developer for 50k€ in central Europe, same as most of my friends. It's basically the same as 10 years ago from what I've heard, but COL has increased A LOT since then.
IaacForHire 4y ago
Oof, European salaries are absurdly low. When I first left the USA I was thinking "OK I'll get a nice job in Amsterdam or Denmark" .. Then I saw the cost of living and the low salaries, and waved away that dream.
- Cryptonic 4y ago
  Yes I also though about a move from Germany to the Netherlands but looks like Software is nothing they see worth of paying more than 60-70k€. Here in Germany I earn 110k€, but this is close to the max you can expect as Software Developer. Maybe 120-140k€ if you are a high value asset that bunkers critical knowledge (My company calls it subject matter expert - basically somebody who wrote critical, but unmaintainable code for a decade or more).
- atemerev 4y ago
  Exactly. Here, a software engineer is mostly just another low middle class profession, not even the upper middle. US immigration is hard enough, otherwise half of European software engineers would have moved to the Valley already. (And no, "cheap medicine" and "cheap education" do not exactly cover the difference, at least for software engineers).
- yardie 4y ago
  Worked there as well and our son was constantly haranguing me about wanting to move back. Had to sit him down and explain what my compensation after taxes were and the cost of living compared to the US. He only remembers France as where his family and former schoolmates are.
  - CalRobert 4y ago
    :-( We're looking at NL specifically so our kids can have some freedom, ride their bikes and take public transport, and not be prisoners of suburbia. But the wages are pretty terrible; I've been working remote for US companies (set up my own consulting firm so invoicing is easy) and that's worked pretty well. We'll see if the recession kills it.
rr888 4y ago
London I think the glory days were late 90s and maybe 03-08. Esp when contractors were paying no tax. I think rates have gone up a little since then but cost of living has doubled or tripled.

In Europe they've probably gone down the past decade I'd say.

by oxff 4y ago

In Europe they've probably gone down the past decade I'd say.

For me, it seems they're going up. 5-years ago, I would ask for 65,000€ in Berlin and that would be considered extremely high for my role now it seems 75,000€ is where the asking price is.

IaacForHire 4y ago
So 3% per year, or just a little bitover inflation. Still, better than the US where we don't really get inflationary raises.

finikytou 4y ago

in pure Euro no they went up a bit but definitly lower than the cost of living increase. the problem is that in the past decade Europe welcomed Cyprus, Czech Republic,Estonia,Hungary,Latvia, Lithuania,Malta , Poland ,Slovakia,Slovenia,Bulgaria ,Romania, Croatia. Most of those countries were below living standards/salaries of western europe while having for some of them a very strong education system. Romania for instance trains a lot of good devs/it ops. All this qualified workforce can work in any country of europe. Add to this qualified workforce from syria/turkey for germany, North Africa for france and you see that while European companies did not grow like the US one, the pool of talent they can grab is larger than ever. the cake became smaller and Europe did everything it could toblock ambitious tech companies to grow and use the stock market as a wealth tool. they don't even understand that they operate in a global market and that if they tax or limit growth in their own country then the companies will move out. Dublin and Amsterdam for instance became hubs for this reason. There is also the perception in the old world that being a "Techie" is like being a white collar factory worker. Developers are definitly not considered as stars in Europe. Most of the engineers in europe that want to make money work for an american company.

walthamstow 4y ago
All the countries you mention apart from Bulgaria, Romania and Croatia were admitted in 2004, which is nearly 20 years ago now.
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  The effects took time to manifest. Now they slowed down.
- finikytou 4y ago
  it is europe. things go slow but once they are in motion... they first used those countries for lowering blue collar jobs (construction for instance) then white collar, the cloud/saas craze was an accelerator. the covid is one too.
badpun 4y ago
> Most of the engineers in europe that want to make money work for an american company. From my experience, most of engineers in Europe who want to make money work are contracting. Contracting money can be similar to what the FAANGs offer here (outside of Switzerland), but taxes are often lower and you don't have to debase yourself with multistage leetcode interviews and intracompany promotion games. However, the US companies may start to up their game here salary-wise - I was recently contacted by a recruiter of a Tier 2 US tech company who said that the TC for a tech lead position in their branch in Poland is around 220k EUR. I hope this is a part of a larger trend.
- finikytou 4y ago
  in many european countries tax will be 50% for contracting. to make 150k you need to make 300k... you cant take days-off,sick-days, might even need to make more for retirment match vs normal job... it is really not a good way to make money
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    >in many european countries tax will be 50% for contracting This! Contracting is the way if your country of residence has low taxes for freelancers, but if its' the same or higher as a FTE then it sucks.

koevet 4y ago

Not sure about salaries for permanent positions, but contractor rates have definitively gone up in the last 10 years for me.

tluyben2 4y ago
They have been rising for the past 30 years for me, but indeed faster the past 10 years.

onion2k 4y ago

In Europe they've probably gone down the past decade I'd say. Outside of the technology hubs like London dev salaries have gone up significantly, largely due to developers being able to work remotely for companies in the technology hubs. I imagine that's a large part of what's exerting downward pressure on wages in those areas.

0x000xca0xfe 4y ago

Yup, just started as an embedded software developer for 50k€ in central Europe, same as most of my friends. It's basically the same as 10 years ago from what I've heard, but COL has increased A LOT since then.

IaacForHire 4y ago

Oof, European salaries are absurdly low. When I first left the USA I was thinking "OK I'll get a nice job in Amsterdam or Denmark" .. Then I saw the cost of living and the low salaries, and waved away that dream.

Cryptonic 4y ago
Yes I also though about a move from Germany to the Netherlands but looks like Software is nothing they see worth of paying more than 60-70k€. Here in Germany I earn 110k€, but this is close to the max you can expect as Software Developer. Maybe 120-140k€ if you are a high value asset that bunkers critical knowledge (My company calls it subject matter expert - basically somebody who wrote critical, but unmaintainable code for a decade or more).
atemerev 4y ago
Exactly. Here, a software engineer is mostly just another low middle class profession, not even the upper middle. US immigration is hard enough, otherwise half of European software engineers would have moved to the Valley already. (And no, "cheap medicine" and "cheap education" do not exactly cover the difference, at least for software engineers).
yardie 4y ago
Worked there as well and our son was constantly haranguing me about wanting to move back. Had to sit him down and explain what my compensation after taxes were and the cost of living compared to the US. He only remembers France as where his family and former schoolmates are.
- CalRobert 4y ago
  :-( We're looking at NL specifically so our kids can have some freedom, ride their bikes and take public transport, and not be prisoners of suburbia. But the wages are pretty terrible; I've been working remote for US companies (set up my own consulting firm so invoicing is easy) and that's worked pretty well. We'll see if the recession kills it.

rr888 4y ago

London I think the glory days were late 90s and maybe 03-08. Esp when contractors were paying no tax. I think rates have gone up a little since then but cost of living has doubled or tripled.