8 ms·

This could be very bad for the people in charge. A metallurgist got 10 years for falsifying reports of steel robustness recently[1], and another 15 years for un

by m00x 4y ago

This could be very bad for the people in charge. A metallurgist got 10 years for falsifying reports of steel robustness recently[1], and another 15 years for uniforms made in China. Selling counterfeits to the military could even get you jailed on treason charges. [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-59186655 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-59186655 [2] https://futurism.com/the-byte/fake-military-gear-china https://futurism.com/the-byte/fake-military-gear-china

650REDHAIR 4y ago
The punishment should be even more severe. It’s a national security risk. The federal government needs more internal audits.
- dc-programmer 4y ago
  This is why folks like Michael Flynn should be no where near positions of power in the military hierarchy
  - encryptluks2 4y ago
    I agree but I think the corruption has existed for a long time and it is going to take a lot of changes and legislation. Basically, maybe in 30 years or more.
    - dc-programmer 4y ago
      I saw a gap to make that point and shot it. There is definitely formidable institutional inertia blocking meaningful change. I’m hoping history does rhyme and we’ll see an adoption of civil service reform policies by both parties like in the late 1800s
      - Spooky23 4y ago
        I’m sure you will. Post COVID hiring will almost certainly result in a lot of idiots as .gov compensation is way out of line with the market.
  - PolygonSheep 4y ago
    I don't think Michael Flynn did a lot of purchasing of parkas and submarine hull castings.
    - netsharc 4y ago
      Corruption spreads down, just look at the "mighty" Russian military. If an org is corrupt (example: Trump admin), the competent, honest, people would stay away, and you just attract idiots, whose motivations might be different to doing the best job possible.
    - dc-programmer 4y ago
      He definitely was not involved in the low level grifts but the fish rots from the head
      - PolygonSheep 4y ago
        He must have done quite a lot of rotting in the whole three weeks he was a national security advisor, especially considering that role has nothing much to do with purchasing components, uniforms, or anything else really.
        dc-programmer 4y ago
        Not sure if you’ve heard but he got in a little trouble for not registering as a foreign agent
- triggercut 4y ago
  More Internal (or external) audits in this case would have no impact. The organisation performing the tests was most likely performing their own internal audits, had that process certified and demonstrated that satisfactorily to certifiers and customers. The only way to counter the risk of a rogue operator trying to cover their tracks is to have a second run from another operator (the risk is then the organisation not the individual), or ideally, and more expensively, have another organisation perform the same tests and a third party confirm an absence of discrepancies. I would prefer the latter as standard but audit is always a trade off between peace of mind and cost. You can demonstrate that a process is superior and mitigates known risks (however unlikely they are) but there will be those that despite operating under in "no failure" environment will ignore the low likelihood, high impact risks because their risk process puts it in the "green" and there are far more pressing things to spend attention and money on.
- unwise-exe 4y ago
  Past some point, I've heard that more excessive punishments don't do much for deterrence. What does help is a certainty of getting caught.
- Spooky23 4y ago
  The government audits a lot. My brother works for a gov agency and he has a unit in his business unit dedicated to audit management. Iirc about 7 employees, who are very busy who just reply to audits. They are an effective tool, but they don’t address all issues.
  - sidewndr46 4y ago
    My experience working with the government is that audits usually addressed compliance with said audits.
  - jessaustin 4y ago
    Officials at the Pentagon boast that they can't be audited. Your brother probably works at a more reliable agency. https://www.npr.org/2021/05/19/997961646/the-pentagon-has-never-passed-an-audit-some-senators-want-to-change-that https://www.npr.org/2021/05/19/997961646/the-pentagon-has-ne...
    - Rebelgecko 4y ago
      Who is boasting?
    - _djo_ 4y ago
      There's a big difference between financial audits, especially at a massive organisation's scale, and process/compliance audits. The claims in that article from Senate aides are a bit misleading, as it's not that unexpected or unreasonable for a department as large and complex as the Pentagon to take years to reach 100% clean audits. After all, it took DHS a decade. It's because interventions don't take effect immediately, with process changes taking time to be planned, rolled out, and have an impact on reporting. As long as the trend keeps moving upward the country is better off than not having audits. The US DoD as a whole has always done a huge amount of compliance auditing both internally and of suppliers, as well as financial auditing at most project and unit levels, outside of the new Congress-mandated top-level auditing requirement.
      - jessaustin 4y ago
triggercut 4y ago
Thanks for sharing the first link. Having worked in subsea for a number of years and co-ordinating a lot of material testing QA/QC, I'm always on the lookout for such cases. It blows my mind why she thought the testing requirements were "stupid". For those unfamiliar, subsea testing requirements set a high-bar (pun intended) because failure in operation is simply not an option. From my non-expert understanding, testing at such low temperatures is not just an order of magnitude factor thing for simulating the operating temperature of the environment, it actually helps put the material in a state to check for other things when under test (maybe increased pressure?). Steel intended for subsea use is not your everyday stuff, apart from it's role in distributing forces, corrosion resistance is designed into the alloy through other elements and the resulting structure (often normalised), to perform even after impact.
- voxadam 4y ago
  There was a thread on the story here on HN ten months ago.[0] [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29161848 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29161848
- specialist 4y ago
  Can you recommend any resources for noobs (laypersons)? What's state of the art and best practices? I've been curious about fraud, counterfeits, grey market, and such for a while. Authenticity, in all domains, seems like a huge problem. And an opportunity. While I was working for a fashion retailer, I suggested we should emphasis our end-to-end chain of custody, so customers knew our Gucci handbags were legit. To contrast us with Amazon & eBay, for example.
elliekelly 4y ago
Wow. Clicking the first link I thought “there’s no amount of money that would make falsifying results worthwhile” but she literally did it for no amount of money. It was just... laziness? It’s almost unbelievable. They had no process to audit or spot check results? Were there just no controls?
- SamPatt 4y ago
  >When confronted with the falsified results, Ms Thomas suggested that in some cases she gave metal positive results because she thought it was "stupid" that the Navy required the tests to be conducted at -100F (-70C) Sounds like arrogance. Given that there hasn't been any known issues with the steel provided, perhaps she's correct that the requirements of the test were stupid. But still not right.
  - userbinator 4y ago
    I think it's stupidity. I'm not even a metallurgist, and yet I know metals and other materials[1] can lose their strength at low temperatures. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Shuttle_Challenger_disaster https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Shuttle_Challenger_disas...
    - Maursault 4y ago
      > I'm not even a metallurgist, and yet I know metals and other materials[1] can lose their strength at low temperatures. I'm not defending her actions, but isn't the coldest ocean water possible still going to be warmer that 24°F? How would a submarine ever get to the top of a mountain at the South Pole (where the -100°F temps are)? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pole_of_Cold https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pole_of_Cold
      - ThrowawayTestr 4y ago
        You test at the extremes so you know it'll perform in the usual.
astura 4y ago
>A metallurgist got 10 years for falsifying reports of steel robustness recently She didn't get 10 years, she "faces up to ten years in prison... She will be sentenced in February" Her sentence ended up actually being considerably less, 2.5 years. https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2022/02/14/metallurgist-gets-25-years-for-faking-steel-test-results-for-navy-subs/ https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2022/02/14/metallur...
nradov 4y ago
This is potentially a serious federal crime but it wouldn't meet the legal definition of treason. Treason is a very specific crime; it's not just anything that harms national security or defrauds the government.
bigtones 4y ago
She did not get 10 years jail. She was sentenced to 2.5 years, with a minimum term of 15 months.
albrewer 4y ago
Looks like she got 2.5 years: https://www.knkx.org/law/2022-02-14/metallurgist-from-auburn-gets-2-5-years-for-faking-tests-on-navy-sub-parts https://www.knkx.org/law/2022-02-14/metallurgist-from-auburn...

by m00x 4y ago

650REDHAIR 4y ago

The punishment should be even more severe. It’s a national security risk. The federal government needs more internal audits.

dc-programmer 4y ago
This is why folks like Michael Flynn should be no where near positions of power in the military hierarchy
- encryptluks2 4y ago
  I agree but I think the corruption has existed for a long time and it is going to take a lot of changes and legislation. Basically, maybe in 30 years or more.
  - dc-programmer 4y ago
    I saw a gap to make that point and shot it. There is definitely formidable institutional inertia blocking meaningful change. I’m hoping history does rhyme and we’ll see an adoption of civil service reform policies by both parties like in the late 1800s
    - Spooky23 4y ago
      I’m sure you will. Post COVID hiring will almost certainly result in a lot of idiots as .gov compensation is way out of line with the market.
- PolygonSheep 4y ago
  I don't think Michael Flynn did a lot of purchasing of parkas and submarine hull castings.
  - netsharc 4y ago
    Corruption spreads down, just look at the "mighty" Russian military. If an org is corrupt (example: Trump admin), the competent, honest, people would stay away, and you just attract idiots, whose motivations might be different to doing the best job possible.
  - dc-programmer 4y ago
    He definitely was not involved in the low level grifts but the fish rots from the head
    - PolygonSheep 4y ago
      He must have done quite a lot of rotting in the whole three weeks he was a national security advisor, especially considering that role has nothing much to do with purchasing components, uniforms, or anything else really.
      - dc-programmer 4y ago
        Not sure if you’ve heard but he got in a little trouble for not registering as a foreign agent
triggercut 4y ago
More Internal (or external) audits in this case would have no impact. The organisation performing the tests was most likely performing their own internal audits, had that process certified and demonstrated that satisfactorily to certifiers and customers. The only way to counter the risk of a rogue operator trying to cover their tracks is to have a second run from another operator (the risk is then the organisation not the individual), or ideally, and more expensively, have another organisation perform the same tests and a third party confirm an absence of discrepancies. I would prefer the latter as standard but audit is always a trade off between peace of mind and cost. You can demonstrate that a process is superior and mitigates known risks (however unlikely they are) but there will be those that despite operating under in "no failure" environment will ignore the low likelihood, high impact risks because their risk process puts it in the "green" and there are far more pressing things to spend attention and money on.
unwise-exe 4y ago
Past some point, I've heard that more excessive punishments don't do much for deterrence. What does help is a certainty of getting caught.
Spooky23 4y ago
The government audits a lot. My brother works for a gov agency and he has a unit in his business unit dedicated to audit management. Iirc about 7 employees, who are very busy who just reply to audits. They are an effective tool, but they don’t address all issues.
- sidewndr46 4y ago
  My experience working with the government is that audits usually addressed compliance with said audits.
- jessaustin 4y ago
  Officials at the Pentagon boast that they can't be audited. Your brother probably works at a more reliable agency. https://www.npr.org/2021/05/19/997961646/the-pentagon-has-never-passed-an-audit-some-senators-want-to-change-that https://www.npr.org/2021/05/19/997961646/the-pentagon-has-ne...
  - Rebelgecko 4y ago
    Who is boasting?
  - _djo_ 4y ago
    There's a big difference between financial audits, especially at a massive organisation's scale, and process/compliance audits. The claims in that article from Senate aides are a bit misleading, as it's not that unexpected or unreasonable for a department as large and complex as the Pentagon to take years to reach 100% clean audits. After all, it took DHS a decade. It's because interventions don't take effect immediately, with process changes taking time to be planned, rolled out, and have an impact on reporting. As long as the trend keeps moving upward the country is better off than not having audits. The US DoD as a whole has always done a huge amount of compliance auditing both internally and of suppliers, as well as financial auditing at most project and unit levels, outside of the new Congress-mandated top-level auditing requirement.
    - jessaustin 4y ago

triggercut 4y ago

Thanks for sharing the first link. Having worked in subsea for a number of years and co-ordinating a lot of material testing QA/QC, I'm always on the lookout for such cases. It blows my mind why she thought the testing requirements were "stupid". For those unfamiliar, subsea testing requirements set a high-bar (pun intended) because failure in operation is simply not an option. From my non-expert understanding, testing at such low temperatures is not just an order of magnitude factor thing for simulating the operating temperature of the environment, it actually helps put the material in a state to check for other things when under test (maybe increased pressure?). Steel intended for subsea use is not your everyday stuff, apart from it's role in distributing forces, corrosion resistance is designed into the alloy through other elements and the resulting structure (often normalised), to perform even after impact.

voxadam 4y ago
There was a thread on the story here on HN ten months ago.[0] [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29161848 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29161848
specialist 4y ago
Can you recommend any resources for noobs (laypersons)? What's state of the art and best practices? I've been curious about fraud, counterfeits, grey market, and such for a while. Authenticity, in all domains, seems like a huge problem. And an opportunity. While I was working for a fashion retailer, I suggested we should emphasis our end-to-end chain of custody, so customers knew our Gucci handbags were legit. To contrast us with Amazon & eBay, for example.

elliekelly 4y ago

Wow. Clicking the first link I thought “there’s no amount of money that would make falsifying results worthwhile” but she literally did it for no amount of money. It was just... laziness? It’s almost unbelievable. They had no process to audit or spot check results? Were there just no controls?

SamPatt 4y ago
>When confronted with the falsified results, Ms Thomas suggested that in some cases she gave metal positive results because she thought it was "stupid" that the Navy required the tests to be conducted at -100F (-70C) Sounds like arrogance. Given that there hasn't been any known issues with the steel provided, perhaps she's correct that the requirements of the test were stupid. But still not right.
- userbinator 4y ago
  I think it's stupidity. I'm not even a metallurgist, and yet I know metals and other materials[1] can lose their strength at low temperatures. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Shuttle_Challenger_disaster https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Shuttle_Challenger_disas...
  - Maursault 4y ago
    > I'm not even a metallurgist, and yet I know metals and other materials[1] can lose their strength at low temperatures. I'm not defending her actions, but isn't the coldest ocean water possible still going to be warmer that 24°F? How would a submarine ever get to the top of a mountain at the South Pole (where the -100°F temps are)? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pole_of_Cold https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pole_of_Cold
    - ThrowawayTestr 4y ago
      You test at the extremes so you know it'll perform in the usual.

astura 4y ago

>A metallurgist got 10 years for falsifying reports of steel robustness recently She didn't get 10 years, she "faces up to ten years in prison... She will be sentenced in February" Her sentence ended up actually being considerably less, 2.5 years. https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2022/02/14/metallurgist-gets-25-years-for-faking-steel-test-results-for-navy-subs/ https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2022/02/14/metallur...

nradov 4y ago

This is potentially a serious federal crime but it wouldn't meet the legal definition of treason. Treason is a very specific crime; it's not just anything that harms national security or defrauds the government.

bigtones 4y ago

She did not get 10 years jail. She was sentenced to 2.5 years, with a minimum term of 15 months.

albrewer 4y ago

Looks like she got 2.5 years: https://www.knkx.org/law/2022-02-14/metallurgist-from-auburn-gets-2-5-years-for-faking-tests-on-navy-sub-parts https://www.knkx.org/law/2022-02-14/metallurgist-from-auburn...