5 ms·

I thought it reduces the severity of the illness, does it not?

Hoasi 4y ago
TMWNN 4y ago
But, as I understand it, does not affect how contagious the person is. Given that, reducing the severity of the illness is arguably counterproductive, as it reduces the odds that the person will go out and about as opposed to staying at home away from others.
- mrtesthah 4y ago
  >Given that, reducing the severity of the illness is arguably counterproductive Sounds like misanthropy to me.
AnonCoward42 4y ago
The narrative around the vaccine flip-flopped so often that it is pretty unclear what it is actually doing. Our health minister (Karl Lauterbach/Germany) actually said that it accelerates symptoms, so they stay at home earlier than those without. It's just so versatile it does everything and the opposite at this point.
- mrtesthah 4y ago
  The narrative of anti-vaxxers has flip-flopped so often that it's pretty unclear what they think vaccines are actually doing.
  - AnonCoward42 4y ago
    I am from Germany and I am - like 95% or so of my fellow Germans - vaccinated myself, so what are you talking about?
    - mrtesthah 4y ago
    - cbg0 4y ago
      How can you and 95% of your fellow Germans be vaccinated when the vaccination rate is below 80% in Germany? https://www.google.com/search?q=germany+covid+vaccination+rate https://www.google.com/search?q=germany+covid+vaccination+ra...
      - AnonCoward42 4y ago
        You said anti-vaxxer which encompasses all vaccinations, but especially in Germany it makes no sense. In Germany most people are vaccinated[1] against something, so they are not oppossed to vaccines necessarily. This illustrates the blind crusade against people that do not want to participate in the mRNA therapy study that is still being conducted. [1]:https://www.gbe-bund.de/gbe/abrechnung.prc_abr_test_logon?p_uid=gast&p_aid=0&p_knoten=FID&p_sprache=D&p_suchstring=4198 https://www.gbe-bund.de/gbe/abrechnung.prc_abr_test_logon?p_... (vaccination rates among child school starters)
dekhn 4y ago
The effects are extremely small for variants that arose recently. If there is a new round of vaccines that work on current and future variants, it would make more sense to get vaccinated.
- ribosometronome 4y ago
  There is a new round of vaccines that work on BA5, the dominant variant as of August in the US.
  - dekhn 4y ago
    (yes; this is recent news; everything I'm describing above is about the previous round of viruses. The new vaccines are in only limited availabiltiy right now)
    - ribosometronome 4y ago
      Oh. My bad. I thought you said "There's no value proposition to vaccination at this point."
      - dekhn 4y ago
        Even boosters are a bit of a question in my mind. I had forgotten they were already approved recently. There really ahsn't been much discussion at UCSF about it other than "it's available we're still evaluating data before making recommendations". What I should have said was "nobody should take the pre-bivalent boosters with any expectation of seeing a reduction in infection chances, or severity of disease, based on our current understanding of omicron, while bivalent boosters seem promising, even though we have extremely limited data and won't know for sure until after the winter cycle."
- lowdest 4y ago
  Like the Omicron booster that has limited availability?
scoofy 4y ago
I listen to TWiV, and the prominent virologists there are suggesting that we don't actually know. In some of the latest episodes, they discuss frankly the fact that yearly boosters may or may not actually have any meaningful impact for normal healthy folks. They get into the details of why we know annual influenza boosters are effective, and that we really don't know whether COVID boosters will have the same effect. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/This_Week_in_Virology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/This_Week_in_Virology https://youtu.be/hwPhF7v4G4M?t=1240 https://youtu.be/hwPhF7v4G4M?t=1240 https://youtu.be/jbPlhaHytm0?t=2449 https://youtu.be/jbPlhaHytm0?t=2449
- dekhn 4y ago
  This is correct: the current position of the medical establishment is that we simply don't have enough data to make an extremely strong argument for vaccines for healthy people.
  - tylerhou 4y ago
    To be clear, do you mean no additional benefit for booster vaccines (not the original series)?
    - dekhn 4y ago
      I don't know enough about the boosters yet (and nobody does). We'll have a better idea in January after the winter cycle is winding down.
      - trention 4y ago
        And nobody knows enough about the flu vaccine currently yearly formulation in every year of the last 50+, but it was still recommended and administered to 40+% of US adults. Covid-related antivaxxism is just latent antivaxxers finally coming clean.
    - scoofy 4y ago
      Watch the TWiV videos, they go into detail, and I time stamped them

But, as I understand it, does not affect how contagious the person is. Given that, reducing the severity of the illness is arguably counterproductive, as it reduces the odds that the person will go out and about as opposed to staying at home away from others.

mrtesthah 4y ago
>Given that, reducing the severity of the illness is arguably counterproductive Sounds like misanthropy to me.

AnonCoward42 4y ago

The narrative around the vaccine flip-flopped so often that it is pretty unclear what it is actually doing. Our health minister (Karl Lauterbach/Germany) actually said that it accelerates symptoms, so they stay at home earlier than those without. It's just so versatile it does everything and the opposite at this point.

mrtesthah 4y ago
The narrative of anti-vaxxers has flip-flopped so often that it's pretty unclear what they think vaccines are actually doing.
- AnonCoward42 4y ago
  I am from Germany and I am - like 95% or so of my fellow Germans - vaccinated myself, so what are you talking about?
  - mrtesthah 4y ago
  - cbg0 4y ago
    How can you and 95% of your fellow Germans be vaccinated when the vaccination rate is below 80% in Germany? https://www.google.com/search?q=germany+covid+vaccination+rate https://www.google.com/search?q=germany+covid+vaccination+ra...
    - AnonCoward42 4y ago
      You said anti-vaxxer which encompasses all vaccinations, but especially in Germany it makes no sense. In Germany most people are vaccinated[1] against something, so they are not oppossed to vaccines necessarily. This illustrates the blind crusade against people that do not want to participate in the mRNA therapy study that is still being conducted. [1]:https://www.gbe-bund.de/gbe/abrechnung.prc_abr_test_logon?p_uid=gast&p_aid=0&p_knoten=FID&p_sprache=D&p_suchstring=4198 https://www.gbe-bund.de/gbe/abrechnung.prc_abr_test_logon?p_... (vaccination rates among child school starters)

dekhn 4y ago

The effects are extremely small for variants that arose recently. If there is a new round of vaccines that work on current and future variants, it would make more sense to get vaccinated.

ribosometronome 4y ago
There is a new round of vaccines that work on BA5, the dominant variant as of August in the US.
- dekhn 4y ago
  (yes; this is recent news; everything I'm describing above is about the previous round of viruses. The new vaccines are in only limited availabiltiy right now)
  - ribosometronome 4y ago
    Oh. My bad. I thought you said "There's no value proposition to vaccination at this point."
    - dekhn 4y ago
      Even boosters are a bit of a question in my mind. I had forgotten they were already approved recently. There really ahsn't been much discussion at UCSF about it other than "it's available we're still evaluating data before making recommendations". What I should have said was "nobody should take the pre-bivalent boosters with any expectation of seeing a reduction in infection chances, or severity of disease, based on our current understanding of omicron, while bivalent boosters seem promising, even though we have extremely limited data and won't know for sure until after the winter cycle."
lowdest 4y ago
Like the Omicron booster that has limited availability?

scoofy 4y ago

I listen to TWiV, and the prominent virologists there are suggesting that we don't actually know. In some of the latest episodes, they discuss frankly the fact that yearly boosters may or may not actually have any meaningful impact for normal healthy folks. They get into the details of why we know annual influenza boosters are effective, and that we really don't know whether COVID boosters will have the same effect. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/This_Week_in_Virology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/This_Week_in_Virology https://youtu.be/hwPhF7v4G4M?t=1240 https://youtu.be/hwPhF7v4G4M?t=1240 https://youtu.be/jbPlhaHytm0?t=2449 https://youtu.be/jbPlhaHytm0?t=2449

dekhn 4y ago
This is correct: the current position of the medical establishment is that we simply don't have enough data to make an extremely strong argument for vaccines for healthy people.
- tylerhou 4y ago
  To be clear, do you mean no additional benefit for booster vaccines (not the original series)?
  - dekhn 4y ago
    I don't know enough about the boosters yet (and nobody does). We'll have a better idea in January after the winter cycle is winding down.
    - trention 4y ago
      And nobody knows enough about the flu vaccine currently yearly formulation in every year of the last 50+, but it was still recommended and administered to 40+% of US adults. Covid-related antivaxxism is just latent antivaxxers finally coming clean.
  - scoofy 4y ago
    Watch the TWiV videos, they go into detail, and I time stamped them