4 ms·

Is the penetrance and severity of the dysautonomia the same with the vaccine and infection? Does it happen with all vaccines types and virus strains?

by vibrio 4y ago

cjbgkagh 4y ago
It’s hard to say as it’s very hard to collect data on. Lots of viruses can cause it but covid is especially bad for it, worse than EBV which was the main trigger before covid. The mRNA covid vaccine is the only vaccine that I know of that can trigger it.
- vibrio 4y ago
  You have a high level of certainty. what drives it if it's hard to collect data on? Why do you know the mRNA covid vaccine can trigger it? Both BioNTech and Moderna's trigger it equally? Do mRNA technologies against other antigens trigger it? Anything on the penetrance of the disease as a percentage of vaccinated people? Suggesting that EBV is a trigger requires a very robust analysis as it is nearly 100% prevalent virus in adults. The study that linked EBV and MS was an unprecedented tour de force I do not mean to interrogate, but I'm fascinated and looking for details or sources so I can better understand.
  - cjbgkagh 4y ago
    I have a ML/Data Science background. It's hard to collect data on because doctors are bad at diagnosing and are highly inconsistent. Additionally there is political pressure to skew the data as well as social pressure to suppress data. We know because many people have gotten sick from the mRNA covid vaccine, myself included. In these groups there are sensible people who will tell you privately and with no ulterior motives that they can trace down the onset of symptoms to shortly after the vaccine. It's strongly and reasonably suspected to do with the spike protein and the ACE-2 AAbs created by the immune system in response. This protein is the same in mRNA viruses as in the covid virus. We know EBV is a trigger again due to timing of onset of symptoms, most people are doomed to catch it but usually only catch it once. It's not like MS where there is a long delay before onset of symptoms that would muddy the waters. There is plenty of literature around this point.
    - layer8 4y ago
      > In these groups there are sensible people who will tell you privately and with no ulterior motives that they can trace down the onset of symptoms to shortly after the vaccine. That sounds like anecdotal evidence?
      - cjbgkagh 4y ago
        To argue the inverse you'd have to suggest that a substantially large number of people who do not know each other are lying in the exact same way. Such a conspiracy would be highly improbable. These are not partisan hacks or virtue signalers, they are everyday people providing their first hand account in a private manner in the hope that a treatment can be found for their own benefit and that of others. There is a spectrum of quality to evidence and the quantity of anecdotal evidence is a quality of its own. Especially when steps can be made to distill and enrich the data.
        layer8 4y ago
        By anecdotal evidence I mean that “providing their first hand account in a private manner” seems to be your personal experience (otherwise it would be either not private or not first-hand), and I assume that not a large number of people confide to you privately in that way. To put in another way, the claims you put forward here only amount to hearsay. It’s not clear how you think one should take those claims seriously.
        vibrio 4y ago
        yes on one hand, "a substantially large number of people who do not know each other are lying in the exact same way. Such a conspiracy would be highly improbable." and yet: "doctors are bad at diagnosing and are highly inconsistent. Additionally there is political pressure to skew the data as well as social pressure to suppress data" to me this seems like a highly improbably conspiracy without evidence to support. The linkage of covid vaccines ti this phenomenon relies entirely on two 'conspiracy' like trains of logic. From what I can tell this disorder is complex, and the diagnosis is likely difficult. linkage to EBV is an endeavor. EBV and CoV2 have very little in common. As far as I know EBV has no link to ACE-2 antibodies is stated as the driver for COVID vaccine linked disesae. The link to EBV sounds at a best tenuous as the 'timing of infection' of a virus that is in >95% of people is very difficult to study. A quick search process studies that link to many other conditions and vaccines (HPV, DTAP, others) which are not mRNA vaccines and not corona viruses, and have no obvious linkage to ACE-2 Abs. There very well may be something here, but rigorous logic is the way to find it, especially in a world where "Nothing is true and everything is possible" due to the proliferation of misinformation.

Is the penetrance and severity of the dysautonomia the same with the vaccine and infection? Does it happen with all vaccines types and virus strains?

by vibrio 4y ago

Is the penetrance and severity of the dysautonomia the same with the vaccine and infection? Does it happen with all vaccines types and virus strains?

cjbgkagh 4y ago

It’s hard to say as it’s very hard to collect data on. Lots of viruses can cause it but covid is especially bad for it, worse than EBV which was the main trigger before covid. The mRNA covid vaccine is the only vaccine that I know of that can trigger it.

vibrio 4y ago
You have a high level of certainty. what drives it if it's hard to collect data on? Why do you know the mRNA covid vaccine can trigger it? Both BioNTech and Moderna's trigger it equally? Do mRNA technologies against other antigens trigger it? Anything on the penetrance of the disease as a percentage of vaccinated people? Suggesting that EBV is a trigger requires a very robust analysis as it is nearly 100% prevalent virus in adults. The study that linked EBV and MS was an unprecedented tour de force I do not mean to interrogate, but I'm fascinated and looking for details or sources so I can better understand.
- cjbgkagh 4y ago
  I have a ML/Data Science background. It's hard to collect data on because doctors are bad at diagnosing and are highly inconsistent. Additionally there is political pressure to skew the data as well as social pressure to suppress data. We know because many people have gotten sick from the mRNA covid vaccine, myself included. In these groups there are sensible people who will tell you privately and with no ulterior motives that they can trace down the onset of symptoms to shortly after the vaccine. It's strongly and reasonably suspected to do with the spike protein and the ACE-2 AAbs created by the immune system in response. This protein is the same in mRNA viruses as in the covid virus. We know EBV is a trigger again due to timing of onset of symptoms, most people are doomed to catch it but usually only catch it once. It's not like MS where there is a long delay before onset of symptoms that would muddy the waters. There is plenty of literature around this point.
  - layer8 4y ago
    > In these groups there are sensible people who will tell you privately and with no ulterior motives that they can trace down the onset of symptoms to shortly after the vaccine. That sounds like anecdotal evidence?
    - cjbgkagh 4y ago
      To argue the inverse you'd have to suggest that a substantially large number of people who do not know each other are lying in the exact same way. Such a conspiracy would be highly improbable. These are not partisan hacks or virtue signalers, they are everyday people providing their first hand account in a private manner in the hope that a treatment can be found for their own benefit and that of others. There is a spectrum of quality to evidence and the quantity of anecdotal evidence is a quality of its own. Especially when steps can be made to distill and enrich the data.
      - layer8 4y ago
        By anecdotal evidence I mean that “providing their first hand account in a private manner” seems to be your personal experience (otherwise it would be either not private or not first-hand), and I assume that not a large number of people confide to you privately in that way. To put in another way, the claims you put forward here only amount to hearsay. It’s not clear how you think one should take those claims seriously.
        vibrio 4y ago
        yes on one hand, "a substantially large number of people who do not know each other are lying in the exact same way. Such a conspiracy would be highly improbable." and yet: "doctors are bad at diagnosing and are highly inconsistent. Additionally there is political pressure to skew the data as well as social pressure to suppress data" to me this seems like a highly improbably conspiracy without evidence to support. The linkage of covid vaccines ti this phenomenon relies entirely on two 'conspiracy' like trains of logic. From what I can tell this disorder is complex, and the diagnosis is likely difficult. linkage to EBV is an endeavor. EBV and CoV2 have very little in common. As far as I know EBV has no link to ACE-2 antibodies is stated as the driver for COVID vaccine linked disesae. The link to EBV sounds at a best tenuous as the 'timing of infection' of a virus that is in >95% of people is very difficult to study. A quick search process studies that link to many other conditions and vaccines (HPV, DTAP, others) which are not mRNA vaccines and not corona viruses, and have no obvious linkage to ACE-2 Abs. There very well may be something here, but rigorous logic is the way to find it, especially in a world where "Nothing is true and everything is possible" due to the proliferation of misinformation.