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Lithium battery fire cannot be 'put out'- in a normal sense. A fuel tank of petrol needs oxygen to burn, and when you spray foam on it your cut off the oxygen a
by ClumsyPilot 4y ago
Lithium battery fire cannot be 'put out'- in a normal sense. A fuel tank of petrol needs oxygen to burn, and when you spray foam on it your cut off the oxygen and the fire stops.
A battery already contains energy, all the chemicals required for the reaction are already present, and once the energy release starts, sealing it from the environment does not stop the process.
Ebike and drone batteries are large enough to be properly dangerous and fire departments make noises about them but offer no solutions. A fire extinguisher large enough for a 500wh battery weighs 12 kilos - most people can barely lift that!
We have no traceability in the battery supply chain and there is no 'battery safety box' that I could readilly buy. It is not clear if an average metal furniture would contain it. And the regulator is sleeping on the job.
- hackernewds 4y agoFirefighters struggle lifting 24.5 lbs?
- eru 4y agoFirefighters aren't 'most people'. I'd guess that most people can lift 12kg. But lifting and wielding ain't the same.
- simondotau 4y ago12kg is like a two year old child or a small-to-medium sized dog.
- eru 4y agoYes. 12kg shouldn't be much of a problem for most people, if the weight comes in the shape of a dumbbell and stuff ain't on fire. But wielding a toddler-sized implement awkwardly in front of a fire while you are a bit panicking yourself, might be a struggle for many people. Especially since you probably never practiced this, and you might even have to hold the thing one-handed, so you can aim with the other hand
- Ekaros 4y agoWhen you get to 12kg it usually mean a cylinder and a hose. You have the cylinder with handle in one hand and the hose in other.
- toomanybeersies 4y agoFire extinguishers are easier to carry than a dumbbell. They're a tall cylinder with a handle at the top.
- robocat 4y agoAlso it only takes 10-30 seconds to discharge a 30lb fire extinguisher[1] with no pause. This is not a marathon. [1] scroll down to table in https://blog.qrfs.com/66-ultimate-guide-to-fire-extinguisher-types-servicing-and-uses/ https://blog.qrfs.com/66-ultimate-guide-to-fire-extinguisher...
- ClumsyPilot 4y agoI mean average housewife and grandpa. Also you are not benchpressing in optimal position, you need to hold it at an awkward angle.
- londons_explore 4y agoThe main reaction in a 'lithium battery fire' is the solvent for the electrolyte vaporizing and burning. So actually a battery can be put out by removing oxygen.
- audunw 4y agoAfter the electrolyte has vaporised, the problem is the anode and cathode being permanently shorted, which will keep generating heat and igniting other things. I guess you can prevent the initial fire from breaking out, but if the fire has already started, it's too late. I'm not an expert, so I could be wrong.
- code_duck 4y agoMost job applications for positions with any sort of physical aspect (grocery, hardware stores, maintenance) ask whether the applicant can lift 50 lbs (23 kg) over their head.
- eunos 4y agoIncluding (I heard) semiconductor engineers. Imagine carrying dozens of kg while wearing PPE.
- kwhitefoot 4y agoNot where I come from (UK) and not where I live (Norway). Can anyone else comment on how widespread this sort of requirement actually is?
- failedengineer 4y agoEvery job I've applied for that required any level of physical work had "must be able to lift 50 lbs" as a requirement. It's a little heavier than a step ladder, bags of potatoes, flour, cement and gravel are typically in that range as well. It's not an unreasonable requirement. You typically won't lift them overhead, but floor-to-shoulder is a very common lift.
- elihu 4y agoI think the standard procedure in EV car fires is to just dump water on it to conduct the heat away as fast as possible, and to keep dumping water on it until the batteries can no longer self-ignite -- which can take awhile.
- Arubis 4y agoPossibly amateurish take: dumping water on an alkali metal seems like not a great idea (unless you want _more_ fire, in which case by all means go for it)
- lazide 4y agoThe good news is, water is cold (generally), doesn't combust (generally), and there is a LOT of it. So spraying water, while it can make it spicier for a bit, allows you to suck away enough heat fast enough that it works okayish. It's the scalable, but not ideal, solution generally. Current guidance is don't bother with anything else, just spray it until the flames stop.
- elihu 4y agoI've wondered if maybe it's possible to pack batteries with a relatively harmless material that undergoes a very energy-intensive phase change. Water's the obvious choice, but it tends to drain away rather than stick around long enough to turn to steam. Maybe there's a better material, or ways to design battery cooling systems so that a burning battery turns into a very efficient steam generator, and thus can be cooled adequately with much less water. I've also wondered if maybe EV's should be designed with an easy-to-access coolant loop. For instance, maybe you have a fixture you can connect a garden hose to in order to pump cold water through channels in the battery modules for emergency cooling. (Most EVs have liquid cooling already, so this could be in addition to that, or maybe you hook into the existing system and the already-present coolant gets flushed out.)
- trhway 4y ago>Water's the obvious choice, but it tends to drain away rather than stick around long enough to turn to steam. just add something gel-forming into the water or some fiber/dust (even just gluten flour) that absorbs a lot of water and turns into kind of watery dough.
- almost_usual 4y agoSo what happens after the next big earthquake in a place like SF?
- themitigating 4y agoWhy would an earthquake directly cause batteries to set on fire? They are already subjected to significantly more vibration and movement in EVs
- sudosysgen 4y agoCrushing.
- almost_usual 4y agoBig earthquake implies things like UMBs collapsing.
- p1mrx 4y agoWhat are UMBs?
- rzzzt 4y agoUpper Memory Blocks, the area between the 640 KiB and 1 MiB range that becomes available on 286+ machines in real mode once the A20 address line is no longer held low by the keyboard controller.
- p1mrx 4y agoThanks, I should add MEMMAKER.EXE to my earthquake kit.
- proto_lambda 4y agoNo idea, but from context, maybe they meant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_Dwelling_Unit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_Dwelling_Unit? Really weird phrasing either way.
- zelon88 4y agoI often wonder about this while hiking or riding my dirt bike out on the trails. Gas powered dirt bikes are prohibited almost everywhere due to risk of fire and chemical contamination. However, more and more I am seeing e-bikes ripping around on hiking trails that would get me and my dirt bikes a hefty fine and impound. The risk of fire and contamination is practically the same. And these e-bikes are typically driven by the same people who would call the cops on a gas powered bike on the same trail. The irony is they ride and do peaceful yoga on trails that were made by motor vehicles whose owners were probably gentrified out of their homes. Go figure.
- almost_usual 4y agoI’m surprised e-bikes are allowed, they’re also prohibited on the trails here and considered OHV. Regarding fire I’d be worried about the hot exhaust on a dry 100+ day.
- zelon88 4y agoMost trail bikes come from the factory with spark arrestors with the major exception being cheap Chinese branded bikes. And I don't think the temperature of the exhaust stream would be enough to light a match 6" away from the tip of the muffler. You'd have to reef on the bike and park it in a pile of dry leaves up to the exhaust header for temperature alone to start a fire. The problem is when you dump the bike. If you dump it on a tree or a rock you can fracture the gas tank (releasing fuel) or the crankcase (releasing oil). Or if you tip the bike completely over the fuel will eventually be released. Releasing these doesn't imply fire is inevitable. You still need ignition. If a fire starts you can try to smother it. On an electric bike the same situation applies. If you dump the bike and fracture the battery (that is often attached to the downtube of the frame) then you will have a catastrophic chemical reaction. Thermal runaway is almost guaranteed. You can't even put it out by smothering it. Furthermore, most lithium battery controllers in consumer devices are proprietary and most consumers have no idea what their true capabilities and thresholds are. Some batteries might be inherently safer than others due to simple firmware that they don't know exists and have no visibility into. There's really no hiding the capabilities of an analog machine.
- z991 4y ago> there is no 'battery safety box' that I could readilly buy Take a look at Bat-Safe LiPo boxes. They are designed to contain the heat and prevent your entire house from going up from a drone battery fire.
- TT-392 4y agoBought one of these a while ago, super happy with the peace of mind these things provide. (I am using it mostly for drone batteries). I hope I'll never have to find out how well it actually works first hand though.
- ClumsyPilot 4y agookay, their largest box is actually big enough to deal with am ebike battery, this could work!
- chmod775 4y ago> A fire extinguisher large enough for a 500wh battery weighs 12 kilos - most people can barely lift that! Almost everyone can lift that overhead. 90% of men and more than 50% of women can lift a bit more than twice that overhead. It's a common job requirement. There would have to be something really wrong for an adult to struggle lifting 12kg. That's a large watermelon, and unlike the melon, the fire extinguisher got a handle. Handheld fire extinguishers top out at that weight - because the vast majority of people will be able to use them and it's better to have two than make them any bigger.
- spyke112 4y agoWhere on earth do you get 12 kg watermelons? Genuine curious, the ones imported here in Denmark I would guess are big if they're around 3 kg.
- Double_a_92 4y agoWarmer countries. E.g. in Italy the common water melons are at least half a meter long.
- colaco 4y agoThe same in Portugal. Ours can be very big.
- Gravityloss 4y agoI guess we can conclude a watermelon is a really bad weight reference unit!
- dotancohen 4y ago$ units You have: 1 watermelon You want: grapes * 907.19 / 0.0011023
- 4y ago
- girvo 4y ago> 12 kilos - most people can barely lift that! Not that I'm disagreeing with your overall point, but this I find particularly surprising? My electric scooter weighs 14 kilograms and I carry it everywhere. That said, adding an extra 12 kilos to my backpack would be annoying, for sure.
- mellavora 4y agoHuh. I add 15kg of weight plates to my backpack, for fun. And I walk to work.
- beeforpork 4y agoHuh, I put 30kg of lead on each leg for fun when hiking, when jogging to work, anytime, really. Plus that heavy backpack, of course!
- aidenn0 4y agoI considered doing that, but it was more easier to just gain 15kg of weight to my actual body.
- raldi 4y ago12kg is 26 pounds. Most people can hold a bowling ball, which weights about half that, in one hand without too much difficulty.
- mschuster91 4y agoIn doubt, take two metal buckets, fill both of them half with sand, and when a lithium device starts smoking put it in one bucket and smother it with sand, or at least place the charger in the bucket. Friend of mine does that with e-cigarette batteries.
- Scoundreller 4y agoI think the commercial aircraft solution is to just put them in jugs of water.
- sgjohnson 4y agoA 5 gallon (18.9 L) jug of water weighs... well, almost 19 kilos, and most people have no problem lifting one.
- waste_monk 4y ago>Ebike and drone batteries are large enough to be properly dangerous and fire departments make noises about them but offer no solutions. A suitable fireproof containment bag + fire-resistant gloves is about $1200 AUD (Brimstone Preventer [1], but I'm sure alternatives are available. This one is small phone/tablet sized and rated for 10k mAh). But most people won't purchase a < $100 fire extinguisher, let alone a battery fire containment device. >A fire extinguisher large enough for a 500wh battery weighs 12 kilos - most people can barely lift that! SafeWork Australia (our national OSHA body) recommend loads be kept below about ~16 to 20kg for a single person without mechanical assistance[2] (or up to 55kg with), and most packaging for heavy boxes recommends two person lift starting around 25 to 36kg. 12kg should be trivial for most adults. [1] https://www.powdersafe.com.au/fire-containment-bag-small-tablet-phone https://www.powdersafe.com.au/fire-containment-bag-small-tab... [2] https://www.safeworkaustralia.gov.au/system/files/documents/1702/nationalcodeofpractice_manualhandling_nohsc2005-1990_archivepdf.pdf https://www.safeworkaustralia.gov.au/system/files/documents/...
- blub 4y agoYes, proper ones are super-expensive. I’ve seen people also use ammo cases with vents cut out, but those won’t stop gases and might actually inadvertently function as a flame thrower.
- jaclaz 4y agoThe standard weight (derived by US NIOSH studies) that can be lifted in workplaces is 30 kg, hence most heavy packages are 25 kg (think of a bag of cement/plaster/etc.) in most EU, see: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31465982 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31465982
- zenexer 4y ago> This Bag Has Contained 10,000 mAh Thermal Runaway Events. Is it just me, or is their choice to use mAh—a meaningless unit in this context—a major red flag? Five figures for a bag, and they can’t even get their units right? Is there some “standard voltage” of which I’m not aware? > Our bags were tested on 4 separate occasions with an overheated laptop, each containing a 3,500mAh - 4500mAh Lithium-Ion battery. The computers melted and burned during these 1 hour tests. The bags showed zero exterior damage. The pull over flaps combined with our carbon liner also absorbed a significant amount of smoke. That’s meaningless unless we know the voltage. Amp-hours don’t measure energy. > Tests were conducted with an overheated laptop and cell phone battery (combined capacity of 8,000 mAh- twice as much power as a typical laptop). Our bag passed this test with 100% containment. Amp-hours don’t measure power—that’d be watts. Neither are measures of energy. This is misleading at best. Maybe I’m being pedantic, but if I’m paying five figures for a bag and trusting my life with this company, I think it’s fair to expect technical correctness in the product description. This reads like a scam—maybe it isn’t, but the wording is far from reassuring.