6 ms·

>However some of the conversations on the use of cannabis recently have changed from “it’s a drug, but it isn’t that bad” to “it is completely harmless”. Or ev

>However some of the conversations on the use of cannabis recently have changed from “it’s a drug, but it isn’t that bad” to “it is completely harmless”. Or even worse, "it's nothing but beneficial!". And yes, I'm a semi-regular "user"

xattt 4y ago
The same sentiment can be applied to current psychedelics research.
- taurath 4y ago
  Can you post a source for any claim that theyre harmless? I don’t think any reputable researcher has ever said that, but they have started talking about potential for positive effects, which is a far cry from “if you take this it will ruin your life”.
  - kevinpet 4y ago
    You're missing the point of the conversation if you think this is about "reputable researchers".
  - tsol 4y ago
    I don't think there are any researchers saying marijuana is anything but beneficial. It's every day people. Same thing for psychedelics. There was a thread on LSD the other day and I had to point out twice that HPPD happens as a result, and is a disorder that can cause significant mental distress. Honestly I think it only does a disservice to the cause to make claims like that
    - opportune 4y ago
      Agreed, it is the general public propagating this. Just go onto Reddit and you’ll see it everywhere. For cannabis I find the attitude pretty scary, having been a daily user myself several times (including now) and dealing with the side effects. It does have negatives. I would hate for everyone to have to learn that the hard way or for them to misidentify the causes, though even those side effects are pretty mild - some are acutely bad like CHS but it’s more the mild anhedonia as you sober up that I think is the worst. For psychedelics, having dabbled myself, I can confidently say the worst case scenario is very bad and often not talked about. A bad trip can be an intensely traumatic experience. I think it would be possible to get PTSD from such an experience. Ironically my own bad trip was precipitated by lighting up a bowl about 5 hours after taking LSD.
      - tmpz22 4y ago
        I also go through phases of daily use. Quit for awhile, then dip back into it to I.e. deal with flu symptoms, special occasion, or when I really feel the need to disassociate from life’s stresses. I won’t go so far as to say it’s addictive for everyone but it’s is incredibly addictive for me. Daily symptoms include: * wake up more tired * wake up with mild morning sickness * wake up a bit foggy * higher tolerance to caffeine * less general stamina * memory a notch worse in general * less energy for physical activities * increased anxiety while sober * slightly higher sense of paranoia/conspiracy —- Notably I consume only edibles and tinctures, which I think is the driving factor for the mild morning sickness.
        opportune 4y ago
        The morning sickness is called Cannabis Hyperemesis Syndrome(CHS). Well technically the symptoms may need to be more acute (vomiting), but I am pretty sure it’s the same mechanism and cause, just milder. At my peak of consumption I also had it mildly with morning nausea. Though at the time I wasn’t using edibles or tinctures at all, almost exclusively oil cartridges.
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
        rjbwork 4y ago
        It's not super addictive to me currently. When I was a youth I used to great excess and it eventually drove me to using harder drugs - one of which, xanax, or alprazolam, nearly ruined my life. I had to take anti-psychotics for years to deal with the absolute mental clusterfuck that poly drug use, but especially xanax, left me with. I stopped all psychoactive drug use, even alcohol, for quite a number of years. At least 5. I currently only use legal D8, D0, and broad spectrum hemp CBD/CBG/etc. tinctures and edibles. Not daily, maybe 2-3 times a week, after work or on weekends. I mix the three, with a small amount of D0, maybe 5-10mg, maybe 35mg D8, and the broad spectrum to near excess. My experience of your symptom list: * wake up more tired - If I'm up too late (like I am now) the grogginess can be worse. * wake up with mild morning sickness - Not the stomach thing that people tend to talk about. I even have to take some pretty nausea inducing medications each morning and even those don't give me nausea. Strong stomach, I guess. * wake up a bit foggy - Sometimes, especially if I take too much tincture, I have a bit of fog and things "glow". A bit like the afterglow of a psychedelic trip in terms of the way everything seems kind of bright and fuzzy and pleasant and I feel a bit dull. * higher tolerance to caffeine - Hadn't noticed this one explicitly, but I think I have been having two coffees or energy drinks more often since I started using again in the past couple of years. * less general stamina - I don't get this one, though I think I'm less apt to use the stamina. Physically or mentally it is no problem compared to not using I think. * memory a notch worse in general - Definitely true. Most noticeable when watching Jeopardy. I totally failed tonight's Knighted Actors category, only getting Sean Connery, when I absolutely knew and could see the faces of the other 4 answers, but just could not come up with their names. It doesn't seem to affect me much in my work - I definitely think the perspective shift and enabling of more creative and abstract and unusual thinking is a net positive despite the minor memory drawbacks. * less energy for physical activities - I actually find it enhances my desire to do physical activities. Lifting and cycling are both greatly enhanced experiences for me when under the influence, I find. * increased anxiety while sober - Don't really get this, except perhaps when I drink too much caffeine. * slightly higher sense of paranoia/conspiracy - Well, my baseline (see intro paragraph...think "holy shit the government is going to assassinate me and is talking about it openly on television") for this is so abjectly high that I don't notice it at all, or I do notice it briefly while pursuing some random stoned line of thought and laugh at the absurdity.
taberiand 4y ago
But surely no one has been saying that cannabis isn't a risk for pregnant women, let alone that it could be beneficial to smoke it, right?
- zdragnar 4y ago
  Plenty of people are, in fact, saying just that. In fact, I was told not too long ago that it kills cancer cells. Oddly enough, the guy who told me that just went in for a biopsy of a growth on his vocal chords...
- Auracle 4y ago
  Nearly 70% of dispensaries in Colorado recommended cannabis for morning sickness: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5970054/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5970054/
  - PointlessLogin 4y ago
    Question: Are US cannabis dispensaries run by independent qualified medical professionals, or are they simply businesses interested in flogging cannabis to everybody to make as much profit as they can [1]? Given the (bonkers IMHO) profit motive of the US medical industry, I suspect the latter, though I'd be interested to hear from those with experience. [1] Given some of the stuff I've read online, I'm pretty sure they would prescribe cannabis for an ingrowing toenail if you asked.
    - sgent 4y ago
      In most states it is a free for all, especially in non-medical stores. A few of the medical only states require them to be dispensed by a pharmacist, but that is the exception.
  - taberiand 4y ago
    I stand corrected and also oh my God.
acomjean 4y ago
I think some of the confusion stems from the fact the “medicinal” happened in some places before “recreational” happened. At least that’s how it played out in Massachusetts. It required a prescription, so doctors were saying to take it, so it gives it more of a vener of safety. Plus it’s not like it wasn’t readily available for people to try before.
- vineyardmike 4y ago
  > I think some of the confusion stems from the fact the “medicinal” happened in some places before “recreational” happened. At least that’s how it played out in Massachusetts. People are actively marketing it as a pseudo-medical treatment (like OTC drugs, or vitamins), beyond the medicinal designation. I searched for a random dispensary in Watertown MA, and clicked the first edible on their site [1]. The description of the item is below… > Go plant-based pills use an optimal blend of plant medicines, caffeine, and cannabis to create an all-natural performance enhancer for your brain and body. Go’s key ingredients increase blood flow to the brain and body in order to boost mental and physical energy and stamina. This is not at all uncommon to find at various dispensaries and products. Even for products that don’t have additives (as the above one appears to). If you google “cannabis cure cancer” or “cannabis cure X” you;lol find countless thought pieces about how theres new evidence from one random trial that may blow open the door to curing whatever with cannabis. It’s got a very eastern-medicine meets wives-tales meets snake oil vibe. [1] https://watertown-adult.ethoscannabis.com/stores/Ethos-Watertown-Adult-Use/product/go-drops-5mg-100mg https://watertown-adult.ethoscannabis.com/stores/Ethos-Water...
harry8 4y ago
Or even worse, "it's a sure-fire one way trip to an early grave via hell. Winners don't do drugs. Just say no." It hasn't gone away, people continue to go to jail because of this belief. Beyond that when the idiocy of such claims are laid bare and it is evident that it was an insane, designed to scare, mountain of evidence-free lies "for the greater good - if we save even one child...", people stop believing what is said by "authority" on a kind of wholesale basis. Can you blame them? "Weed is a healthfood" isn't really much worse than the just say no truth disaster. People made money out of both sets of lies as well. The pandemic really laid it in stark relief the amount of "authority propagated claims" that were actually wholly evidence-free and the lack of critical assessment of evidence by such authority (remember the "masks don't work, can't be transmitted through the air" line sprouted by people in white coats with PhD after their name claiming "the science"? Be they WHO, Fauci, NHS and all the rest of them?) We all actually had to go and do all that assessment of evidence and probability for ourselves because the authority was both lying and incompetent. No doubt many of us got our assessment "wrong" in avoidable ways if the highly trained had not also decided to "lie for the greater good" and merely stated what was known with the appropriate estimate of its certainty. [1] It's always a mistake to knowingly tell lies leaning on the podium of authority, the interest always comes due and the rate is more than just unreasonably steep. How bad is this one going to be? The incarceration level is bad enough by itself. "What's the evidence for that?" When this provokes anger rather than being directed to published results, it's time to be /very/ suspicious. There hasn't ever been a reckoning for those who claimed authority to repeat lies, demanding their resignation at the minimum seems appropriate. [1] https://www.wired.com/story/the-teeny-tiny-scientific-screwup-that-helped-covid-kill/ https://www.wired.com/story/the-teeny-tiny-scientific-screwu... Decades of trained and qualified anointed robe wearing doctors and scientific researchers believing and repeating something in a textbook, copied from another textbook which got it from a grandparent textbook and never actually asked "what is the evidence in support of that? Where are the studies and replications?" It's really sobering. Do you think the places where you go indoors have updated their airflow accordingly yet? Do we have government minimum standards in building codes yet or even "in the pipeline?" Will you believe "authority" next crisis?
dylan604 4y ago
>Or even worse, "it's nothing but beneficial!" This is something I've seen too. There are people that are pro-medical cannabis because of it's miraculous uses to the point of only using different forms of cannabis in lieu of any other medication. While I believe there's some things cannabis is great for, but I'm not convinced it's that magical. Since we've been prevented from studying it properly because of bullshit laws, we've got some things to look into still.
- jdougan 4y ago
  Yeah, this should have been studied 30 years ago.
pjc50 4y ago
People cannot cope with even the slightest gray area, so they end up saying and doing ridiculous things. Everything has to be 100% good or 100% bad. The political environment makes this worse: if you concede anything at all, it will simply be used as a weapon against you. Of course, it took decades to get people to acknowledge that the harms of some drugs were far less than the harm caused by policing them, and that the harms had been wildly exaggerated for political reasons, so it's not really surprising that people will jump to deny any harm in case it gets banned again.
- PointlessLogin 4y ago
  > People cannot cope with even the slightest gray area, so they end up saying and doing ridiculous things. Everything has to be 100% good or 100% bad. I suggest this binary positioning is a very American phenomenon; the cultural reasons for which I'm unable to suggest a reason for.
  - dumpsterdiver 4y ago
    So you're making a suggestion but you don't know why? Uh... thanks?
    - PointlessLogin 4y ago
      sigh It is possible to observe behaviour without knowing what causes it. "I suggest drinking heavily is a very British phenomenon; the cultural reasons for which I'm unable to suggest a reason for either."
  - d3fault 4y ago
    > I suggest this binary positioning is a very American phenomenon I really don't think so. Binary thinking is something I've personally noticed and thought about for a while, and I think it stems from the human brain just trying to simplify things. In most scenarios, it is far easier (and time efficient) to only consider the 2 extreme options rather than the entire spectrum of possible options, even if those two extremes are far worse than the alternatives. Plus, I've seen Europeans do the same thing all the time [0]. Remember, polarization (which is really just an extension of tribalism imo) isn't an American condition, it's a human condition. [0] I've lived in both the US and Europe

xattt 4y ago

The same sentiment can be applied to current psychedelics research.

taurath 4y ago
Can you post a source for any claim that theyre harmless? I don’t think any reputable researcher has ever said that, but they have started talking about potential for positive effects, which is a far cry from “if you take this it will ruin your life”.
- kevinpet 4y ago
  You're missing the point of the conversation if you think this is about "reputable researchers".
- tsol 4y ago
  I don't think there are any researchers saying marijuana is anything but beneficial. It's every day people. Same thing for psychedelics. There was a thread on LSD the other day and I had to point out twice that HPPD happens as a result, and is a disorder that can cause significant mental distress. Honestly I think it only does a disservice to the cause to make claims like that
  - opportune 4y ago
    Agreed, it is the general public propagating this. Just go onto Reddit and you’ll see it everywhere. For cannabis I find the attitude pretty scary, having been a daily user myself several times (including now) and dealing with the side effects. It does have negatives. I would hate for everyone to have to learn that the hard way or for them to misidentify the causes, though even those side effects are pretty mild - some are acutely bad like CHS but it’s more the mild anhedonia as you sober up that I think is the worst. For psychedelics, having dabbled myself, I can confidently say the worst case scenario is very bad and often not talked about. A bad trip can be an intensely traumatic experience. I think it would be possible to get PTSD from such an experience. Ironically my own bad trip was precipitated by lighting up a bowl about 5 hours after taking LSD.
    - tmpz22 4y ago
      I also go through phases of daily use. Quit for awhile, then dip back into it to I.e. deal with flu symptoms, special occasion, or when I really feel the need to disassociate from life’s stresses. I won’t go so far as to say it’s addictive for everyone but it’s is incredibly addictive for me. Daily symptoms include: * wake up more tired * wake up with mild morning sickness * wake up a bit foggy * higher tolerance to caffeine * less general stamina * memory a notch worse in general * less energy for physical activities * increased anxiety while sober * slightly higher sense of paranoia/conspiracy —- Notably I consume only edibles and tinctures, which I think is the driving factor for the mild morning sickness.
      - opportune 4y ago
        The morning sickness is called Cannabis Hyperemesis Syndrome(CHS). Well technically the symptoms may need to be more acute (vomiting), but I am pretty sure it’s the same mechanism and cause, just milder. At my peak of consumption I also had it mildly with morning nausea. Though at the time I wasn’t using edibles or tinctures at all, almost exclusively oil cartridges.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - rjbwork 4y ago
        It's not super addictive to me currently. When I was a youth I used to great excess and it eventually drove me to using harder drugs - one of which, xanax, or alprazolam, nearly ruined my life. I had to take anti-psychotics for years to deal with the absolute mental clusterfuck that poly drug use, but especially xanax, left me with. I stopped all psychoactive drug use, even alcohol, for quite a number of years. At least 5. I currently only use legal D8, D0, and broad spectrum hemp CBD/CBG/etc. tinctures and edibles. Not daily, maybe 2-3 times a week, after work or on weekends. I mix the three, with a small amount of D0, maybe 5-10mg, maybe 35mg D8, and the broad spectrum to near excess. My experience of your symptom list: * wake up more tired - If I'm up too late (like I am now) the grogginess can be worse. * wake up with mild morning sickness - Not the stomach thing that people tend to talk about. I even have to take some pretty nausea inducing medications each morning and even those don't give me nausea. Strong stomach, I guess. * wake up a bit foggy - Sometimes, especially if I take too much tincture, I have a bit of fog and things "glow". A bit like the afterglow of a psychedelic trip in terms of the way everything seems kind of bright and fuzzy and pleasant and I feel a bit dull. * higher tolerance to caffeine - Hadn't noticed this one explicitly, but I think I have been having two coffees or energy drinks more often since I started using again in the past couple of years. * less general stamina - I don't get this one, though I think I'm less apt to use the stamina. Physically or mentally it is no problem compared to not using I think. * memory a notch worse in general - Definitely true. Most noticeable when watching Jeopardy. I totally failed tonight's Knighted Actors category, only getting Sean Connery, when I absolutely knew and could see the faces of the other 4 answers, but just could not come up with their names. It doesn't seem to affect me much in my work - I definitely think the perspective shift and enabling of more creative and abstract and unusual thinking is a net positive despite the minor memory drawbacks. * less energy for physical activities - I actually find it enhances my desire to do physical activities. Lifting and cycling are both greatly enhanced experiences for me when under the influence, I find. * increased anxiety while sober - Don't really get this, except perhaps when I drink too much caffeine. * slightly higher sense of paranoia/conspiracy - Well, my baseline (see intro paragraph...think "holy shit the government is going to assassinate me and is talking about it openly on television") for this is so abjectly high that I don't notice it at all, or I do notice it briefly while pursuing some random stoned line of thought and laugh at the absurdity.

taberiand 4y ago

But surely no one has been saying that cannabis isn't a risk for pregnant women, let alone that it could be beneficial to smoke it, right?

zdragnar 4y ago
Plenty of people are, in fact, saying just that. In fact, I was told not too long ago that it kills cancer cells. Oddly enough, the guy who told me that just went in for a biopsy of a growth on his vocal chords...
Auracle 4y ago
Nearly 70% of dispensaries in Colorado recommended cannabis for morning sickness: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5970054/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5970054/
- PointlessLogin 4y ago
  Question: Are US cannabis dispensaries run by independent qualified medical professionals, or are they simply businesses interested in flogging cannabis to everybody to make as much profit as they can [1]? Given the (bonkers IMHO) profit motive of the US medical industry, I suspect the latter, though I'd be interested to hear from those with experience. [1] Given some of the stuff I've read online, I'm pretty sure they would prescribe cannabis for an ingrowing toenail if you asked.
  - sgent 4y ago
    In most states it is a free for all, especially in non-medical stores. A few of the medical only states require them to be dispensed by a pharmacist, but that is the exception.
- taberiand 4y ago
  I stand corrected and also oh my God.

acomjean 4y ago

I think some of the confusion stems from the fact the “medicinal” happened in some places before “recreational” happened. At least that’s how it played out in Massachusetts. It required a prescription, so doctors were saying to take it, so it gives it more of a vener of safety. Plus it’s not like it wasn’t readily available for people to try before.

vineyardmike 4y ago
> I think some of the confusion stems from the fact the “medicinal” happened in some places before “recreational” happened. At least that’s how it played out in Massachusetts. People are actively marketing it as a pseudo-medical treatment (like OTC drugs, or vitamins), beyond the medicinal designation. I searched for a random dispensary in Watertown MA, and clicked the first edible on their site [1]. The description of the item is below… > Go plant-based pills use an optimal blend of plant medicines, caffeine, and cannabis to create an all-natural performance enhancer for your brain and body. Go’s key ingredients increase blood flow to the brain and body in order to boost mental and physical energy and stamina. This is not at all uncommon to find at various dispensaries and products. Even for products that don’t have additives (as the above one appears to). If you google “cannabis cure cancer” or “cannabis cure X” you;lol find countless thought pieces about how theres new evidence from one random trial that may blow open the door to curing whatever with cannabis. It’s got a very eastern-medicine meets wives-tales meets snake oil vibe. [1] https://watertown-adult.ethoscannabis.com/stores/Ethos-Watertown-Adult-Use/product/go-drops-5mg-100mg https://watertown-adult.ethoscannabis.com/stores/Ethos-Water...

harry8 4y ago

Or even worse, "it's a sure-fire one way trip to an early grave via hell. Winners don't do drugs. Just say no." It hasn't gone away, people continue to go to jail because of this belief. Beyond that when the idiocy of such claims are laid bare and it is evident that it was an insane, designed to scare, mountain of evidence-free lies "for the greater good - if we save even one child...", people stop believing what is said by "authority" on a kind of wholesale basis. Can you blame them? "Weed is a healthfood" isn't really much worse than the just say no truth disaster. People made money out of both sets of lies as well. The pandemic really laid it in stark relief the amount of "authority propagated claims" that were actually wholly evidence-free and the lack of critical assessment of evidence by such authority (remember the "masks don't work, can't be transmitted through the air" line sprouted by people in white coats with PhD after their name claiming "the science"? Be they WHO, Fauci, NHS and all the rest of them?) We all actually had to go and do all that assessment of evidence and probability for ourselves because the authority was both lying and incompetent. No doubt many of us got our assessment "wrong" in avoidable ways if the highly trained had not also decided to "lie for the greater good" and merely stated what was known with the appropriate estimate of its certainty. [1] It's always a mistake to knowingly tell lies leaning on the podium of authority, the interest always comes due and the rate is more than just unreasonably steep. How bad is this one going to be? The incarceration level is bad enough by itself. "What's the evidence for that?" When this provokes anger rather than being directed to published results, it's time to be /very/ suspicious. There hasn't ever been a reckoning for those who claimed authority to repeat lies, demanding their resignation at the minimum seems appropriate. [1] https://www.wired.com/story/the-teeny-tiny-scientific-screwup-that-helped-covid-kill/ https://www.wired.com/story/the-teeny-tiny-scientific-screwu... Decades of trained and qualified anointed robe wearing doctors and scientific researchers believing and repeating something in a textbook, copied from another textbook which got it from a grandparent textbook and never actually asked "what is the evidence in support of that? Where are the studies and replications?" It's really sobering. Do you think the places where you go indoors have updated their airflow accordingly yet? Do we have government minimum standards in building codes yet or even "in the pipeline?" Will you believe "authority" next crisis?

dylan604 4y ago

>Or even worse, "it's nothing but beneficial!" This is something I've seen too. There are people that are pro-medical cannabis because of it's miraculous uses to the point of only using different forms of cannabis in lieu of any other medication. While I believe there's some things cannabis is great for, but I'm not convinced it's that magical. Since we've been prevented from studying it properly because of bullshit laws, we've got some things to look into still.

jdougan 4y ago
Yeah, this should have been studied 30 years ago.

pjc50 4y ago

People cannot cope with even the slightest gray area, so they end up saying and doing ridiculous things. Everything has to be 100% good or 100% bad. The political environment makes this worse: if you concede anything at all, it will simply be used as a weapon against you. Of course, it took decades to get people to acknowledge that the harms of some drugs were far less than the harm caused by policing them, and that the harms had been wildly exaggerated for political reasons, so it's not really surprising that people will jump to deny any harm in case it gets banned again.

PointlessLogin 4y ago
> People cannot cope with even the slightest gray area, so they end up saying and doing ridiculous things. Everything has to be 100% good or 100% bad. I suggest this binary positioning is a very American phenomenon; the cultural reasons for which I'm unable to suggest a reason for.
- dumpsterdiver 4y ago
  So you're making a suggestion but you don't know why? Uh... thanks?
  - PointlessLogin 4y ago
    sigh It is possible to observe behaviour without knowing what causes it. "I suggest drinking heavily is a very British phenomenon; the cultural reasons for which I'm unable to suggest a reason for either."
- d3fault 4y ago
  > I suggest this binary positioning is a very American phenomenon I really don't think so. Binary thinking is something I've personally noticed and thought about for a while, and I think it stems from the human brain just trying to simplify things. In most scenarios, it is far easier (and time efficient) to only consider the 2 extreme options rather than the entire spectrum of possible options, even if those two extremes are far worse than the alternatives. Plus, I've seen Europeans do the same thing all the time [0]. Remember, polarization (which is really just an extension of tribalism imo) isn't an American condition, it's a human condition. [0] I've lived in both the US and Europe