5 ms·

Totally agree. Which countries are dominating STEM education? Israel, Russia, China , India and a few others which have strict schedules, competition and discip

by nus07 4y ago

Totally agree. Which countries are dominating STEM education? Israel, Russia, China , India and a few others which have strict schedules, competition and discipline. Looking at the failing US model I am starting to believe that finding your path and self motivation may work for 5% while leading the other 95% to slacking , cheap entertainment and failure.

giantg2 4y ago
Discipline is dead here (US). Very few people have discipline as adults, so the kids don't learn it either. Society doesn't value it, so it generally doest pay off. I used to show up early to work, took my responsibilities seriously, and not take shortcuts. Guess what? I get paid the same either way, so what's the point? We're "fat and happy", so something would have to change culturally.
- fineIllregister 4y ago
  > I used to show up early to work, took my responsibilities seriously, and not take shortcuts. Guess what? I get paid the same either way, so what's the point? What do you imagine happens in Israel, Russia, India, or China when people do that? They get profit sharing? Seems unlikely.
  - giantg2 4y ago
    "What do you imagine happens in Israel, Russia, India, or China when people do that?" They don't get fired, maybe get a raise or promotion. In the US, you won't get fired for doing the minimum because they don't have anyone to replace you with who would be better.
- hintymad 4y ago
  I used to think so too, but I changed my view after seeing how high schools work here in the bay area. The schools here are super demanding, and students work crazy hours. It looks to me that the US schools are great for top students: demanding projects, strict disciplines, wide selection of extracurricular activities, abundant resources like AP courses and college programs, access to world-famous labs, professors and engineers, well-designed co-op programs with top companies, and of course, tiger parents who demand high achievements. On the other hand, we had public schools in Baltimore whose median GPA is below 0.5 out of 4. A stark contrast of two worlds. That why it pains me to see that progressives thought that lowering standards would help students in need. The three years of Covid showed exactly the opposite.
  - giantg2 4y ago
    I'm not sure how we can measure the number of students with discipline. GPA isn't a good measure as some kids may get As easily while a less gifted but dedicated student might get a B. Even measuring advanced placement isn't great since not all places have that tract and you still miss those less gifted but dedicated students. Plus, we seem to have a lot of grade inflation over the past 50+ years, which could mean it's easier. There are certainly some students who are really disciplined/dedicated about their school work, but I would guess the number is less than 15%. I did pretty well in school, but likely could have done better if I were really disciplined about school work. I usually rushed through homework and spent just a reasonable amount of time on projects. I'd rather be playing video games or sports, or hanging out with friends. I'd put extra work in on stuff I was interested in and probably learned just as much outside the classroom as in. Even stuff like school band I would rarely practice and still do well (sort of forced into it because the school would give busy work to the non-band members during the occasional practices during school hours). I went to a private school and participated in advance classes, and I still think 15% is about the number of students who studied hard and the rest of us could either do it easily or some would cheat.
ravi-delia 4y ago
Which countries are dominating STEM research? You know, the part that is actually useful instead of just coersive? America, by a long shot.
- lordnacho 4y ago
  Aren't the actual PhD students often from those other countries?
  - hot_gril 4y ago
    Yeah. I've heard many times that the US has the best college and higher education but not so great K-12.
cycomanic 4y ago
Actually the statistics around education have completely different systems from Finland (very student driven learning) as well as Korea and Singapore (very discipline driven) at the topic. The main common factor is that the spend significantly larger fractions than the average on education.

by nus07 4y ago

giantg2 4y ago

Discipline is dead here (US). Very few people have discipline as adults, so the kids don't learn it either. Society doesn't value it, so it generally doest pay off. I used to show up early to work, took my responsibilities seriously, and not take shortcuts. Guess what? I get paid the same either way, so what's the point? We're "fat and happy", so something would have to change culturally.

fineIllregister 4y ago
> I used to show up early to work, took my responsibilities seriously, and not take shortcuts. Guess what? I get paid the same either way, so what's the point? What do you imagine happens in Israel, Russia, India, or China when people do that? They get profit sharing? Seems unlikely.
- giantg2 4y ago
  "What do you imagine happens in Israel, Russia, India, or China when people do that?" They don't get fired, maybe get a raise or promotion. In the US, you won't get fired for doing the minimum because they don't have anyone to replace you with who would be better.
hintymad 4y ago
I used to think so too, but I changed my view after seeing how high schools work here in the bay area. The schools here are super demanding, and students work crazy hours. It looks to me that the US schools are great for top students: demanding projects, strict disciplines, wide selection of extracurricular activities, abundant resources like AP courses and college programs, access to world-famous labs, professors and engineers, well-designed co-op programs with top companies, and of course, tiger parents who demand high achievements. On the other hand, we had public schools in Baltimore whose median GPA is below 0.5 out of 4. A stark contrast of two worlds. That why it pains me to see that progressives thought that lowering standards would help students in need. The three years of Covid showed exactly the opposite.
- giantg2 4y ago
  I'm not sure how we can measure the number of students with discipline. GPA isn't a good measure as some kids may get As easily while a less gifted but dedicated student might get a B. Even measuring advanced placement isn't great since not all places have that tract and you still miss those less gifted but dedicated students. Plus, we seem to have a lot of grade inflation over the past 50+ years, which could mean it's easier. There are certainly some students who are really disciplined/dedicated about their school work, but I would guess the number is less than 15%. I did pretty well in school, but likely could have done better if I were really disciplined about school work. I usually rushed through homework and spent just a reasonable amount of time on projects. I'd rather be playing video games or sports, or hanging out with friends. I'd put extra work in on stuff I was interested in and probably learned just as much outside the classroom as in. Even stuff like school band I would rarely practice and still do well (sort of forced into it because the school would give busy work to the non-band members during the occasional practices during school hours). I went to a private school and participated in advance classes, and I still think 15% is about the number of students who studied hard and the rest of us could either do it easily or some would cheat.

ravi-delia 4y ago

Which countries are dominating STEM research? You know, the part that is actually useful instead of just coersive? America, by a long shot.

lordnacho 4y ago
Aren't the actual PhD students often from those other countries?
- hot_gril 4y ago
  Yeah. I've heard many times that the US has the best college and higher education but not so great K-12.

cycomanic 4y ago

Actually the statistics around education have completely different systems from Finland (very student driven learning) as well as Korea and Singapore (very discipline driven) at the topic. The main common factor is that the spend significantly larger fractions than the average on education.