5 ms·

That one student should be able to switch to a different group. If all want to switch then there's a problem with the instructor. Let's look at the opposite en

That one student should be able to switch to a different group. If all want to switch then there's a problem with the instructor. Let's look at the opposite end of the spectrum. Student loves an instructor but is needlessly switched to someone new. My point though is that the flexibility to change or stay in the same group should exist.

kayodelycaon 4y ago
Tried this. Was not allowed to switch because it would cause an uneven class size. At least, that's what I was told the policy was for.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- nickff 4y ago
  It's probably true; schools are generally run for the benefit and convenience of teachers, not students. The former have a strong union with outsized influence on local elections, whereas the latter don't even vote. The same incentives lead to early school start times which help teachers at the cost of students (particularly teenagers who generally have 'later' circadian rhythms).
  - freditup 4y ago
    Are teachers really the ones pushing for such early starts of school? Anecdotally, most teachers I know don't love waking up at 5am in order to get ready and get to school on time. I always thought the early start was to have enough time in the afternoon and evening for after-school activities, but not sure.
    - kayodelycaon 4y ago
      My understanding was, it's so teenagers can get home before their younger siblings.
    - zerocrates 4y ago
      I believe it's basically sports plus buses (times are staggered so the same buses can be used for several school levels).
  - yamtaddle 4y ago
    > It's probably true; schools are generally run for the benefit and convenience of teachers, not students. This is, emphatically, not even close to true. If someone told you this, they were lying or just had no idea how schools work and were guessing. > early school start times which help teachers at the cost of students A perfect example of how you're veering away from reality with your faulty premise: teachers don't like super-early starts, either! Except the coaches who like having plenty of time for long after-school practices with the sun still up. Parents of athletes may like it, too, just so only one end of their daily schedule changes when their kids' sports are in season (as opposed to having to get them in for an early practice, and pick them up late for a late practice, unable to use the school bus for either end). The justification given for keeping it is usually some combo of "parents want it" (do they? I'm a parent and I fucking don't—but then I don't have any high school athletes in my house yet) and, overriding all other concerns, school sports. Adjusting those schedules may also mean elementary kids start earlier so that the high schoolers can start later, because districts want to be able to stagger bus schedules so they need fewer busses—again, not because teachers are demanding it—which I guess maybe some parents don't like (I'm a parent of elementary kids, and yeah, I'd like them there earlier and the high school kids later, reverse of how most districts do it, but maybe some parents do in fact want their elementary kids starting at 9 o'goddamn-clock when they've already burned 1-2 of their most alert hours for the day, and the high schoolers starting before 8:00, for some reason). It is absolutely not because teachers are demanding to start school before the sun's even up in the Winter.
    - lumost 4y ago
      like daylight savings, I think everyone feels compelled to pretend there is a reason for this madness. I don't believe there is any purpose in the current school start time, but it's been this way for ages. I'm sure it works for at least some people - but I don't see any reason why student athletes couldn't practice in the morning and spare the rest of us.
      - yamtaddle 4y ago
        The sports-parent and coach lobby in high schools is often one of the stronger interest groups. I've known teachers to advocate for later starts in meetings (again: it really, really isn't due to some powerful cabal of ordinary teachers who just looooove starting school incredibly early) and be told sports are the reason it's not gonna happen (plus having to re-do bus schedules—admin hates working). Also, I can report that the old trope of high school athletes getting grades adjusted or being given way more leeway on disciplinary issues, which one might hope was now only observable on retro 80s movie nights, is still very much a real thing. Most teachers hate that crap, too, but administrators, coaches, and sports-parents all like the preferential treatment for athletes.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - 8note 4y ago
    My understanding is that schools are run for the convenience of administrators, who want metrics based performance to look at like butts in seats, test scores, cost per student, etc
    - pc86 4y ago
      I have no doubt administrators have a large role to play in this but "test scores" and "cost per student" seem like perfectly fine metrics by which to judge schools, no?
      - femiagbabiaka 4y ago
        Metrics are meaningless without context, useful only for snap judgements by peanut galleries. Judging by metric is an pernicious antipattern that sounds good but the public and politicians rarely have the time for the contextualization necessary to make truly “data-driven decisions”. This is true outside of school management as well.
      - throwaway0a5e 4y ago
        "I literally don't have the time to cover the Indian Wars or Jim Crow south while still covering what I need to cover so my students can pass the state standardized test" -A teacher I was talking to last week Point is, test scores aren't perfect.
        brnt 4y ago
        What's the alternative?
        WalterBright 4y ago
        The idea is to get rid of all standardized testing, so that there will be no contraindications to the story of public school excellence.
  - femiagbabiaka 4y ago
    Oh wow. You know U.S. labor is in a terrible place when AFT is described as a powerful union with an outsized influence on elections. (It’s exactly the opposite, actually, the only power teachers have left is the power to strike.)
    - Kamq 4y ago
      > the only power teachers have left is the power to strike. That's the only power any worker has. Pay and/or other powers tend to correlate to how often the worker ceases to work and/or how expensive it would be to replace them (true for both union and non-union workers).
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
beefman 4y ago
In U.S. public schools, this will not be allowed. Schools already do everything they can to discourage and deny teacher switching requests. Why? Because there is a large difference in quality between teachers, and everyone knows which teachers are best, but administrators aren't allowed to fire a teacher with low enrollment because of switching requests, and face class size limits in the case of the good teachers.
- MisterBastahrd 4y ago
  I live in the US. My daughter switched classes last year. We transferred to the school system before the start of the school year (a much better one than the previous one which mostly catered to children from lower class families) and as a result, she was behind her classmates for her grade and age group. The teacher was openly derogatory towards her when she didn't understand a concept and refused to help her during open study periods. The child was flat out depressed when having to do anything with the class. We had enough and had a conference call with the principal, her assistant, and the teacher. Our kid was in a new class the next day.
- svnt 4y ago
  My experience is that they make exceptions to this when a teacher loops, for exactly the reason parent describes.
- hardtke 4y ago
  When my kids were in public elementary school there was a teacher that was so bad that most families who had children assigned to that teacher simply left the school. The administration was going through the procedure to get the teacher removed but it was going to take more than one year. They finally came up with the solution of having the terrible teacher become a "social studies specialist" and have her teach a few hours weekly to every single classroom in the school, thereby diluting her awfulness among the maximum number of students.
  - anshorei 4y ago
    > diluting her awfulness among the maximum number of students *polluting with her awfulness the maximum number of students
kbenson 4y ago
In this scenario switching is not just getting a different teacher, but an entirely new set of classmates as well, meaning the child is willingly walking away from all their friends and acquaintances they've made possibly over years. I suspect the vast majority of students will choose to stay with the current teacher, even if a very poor fit for them, because of that.
- llbeansandrice 4y ago
  I agree, people struggle to leave jobs with horrible bosses due to other aspects that aren't as big as your friend group and support structure as a child. This sounds awful for those kids. I suppose there's an argument to be made about "preparing for the 'real world'" but still.
- WaitWaitWha 4y ago
  > In this scenario switching is not just getting a different teacher, but an entirely new set of classmates as well, meaning the child is willingly walking away from all their friends and acquaintances they've made possibly over years. Do they (correct me if I am wrong)? What I have seen in the USA, children indeed would switch classes, but relationships are continued on, especially middle and high schools where free time and extra curricular activities are often in shared space and time across classes.
  - kbenson 4y ago
    It's a matter of perception, not reality. They no longer will see them all day like they are used to, and instead just at specific times. To someone such as myself that didn't share a lot of classes with my good friends that doesn't seem like a big deal. To someone that may have already spent a couple years with these people all day long? That is likely a very scary thing to consider at a young age.
  - vidarh 4y ago
    My sons school (in the UK) intentionally mixed up classes every year through primary school, and I was sceptical at first but it seemed to work quite well, in that they were able to get people away from kids they didn't do well alongside. Obviously mixing like that does not work if you want to keep the kids with the same teacher.

kayodelycaon 4y ago

Tried this. Was not allowed to switch because it would cause an uneven class size. At least, that's what I was told the policy was for.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
nickff 4y ago
It's probably true; schools are generally run for the benefit and convenience of teachers, not students. The former have a strong union with outsized influence on local elections, whereas the latter don't even vote. The same incentives lead to early school start times which help teachers at the cost of students (particularly teenagers who generally have 'later' circadian rhythms).
- freditup 4y ago
  Are teachers really the ones pushing for such early starts of school? Anecdotally, most teachers I know don't love waking up at 5am in order to get ready and get to school on time. I always thought the early start was to have enough time in the afternoon and evening for after-school activities, but not sure.
  - kayodelycaon 4y ago
    My understanding was, it's so teenagers can get home before their younger siblings.
  - zerocrates 4y ago
    I believe it's basically sports plus buses (times are staggered so the same buses can be used for several school levels).
- yamtaddle 4y ago
  > It's probably true; schools are generally run for the benefit and convenience of teachers, not students. This is, emphatically, not even close to true. If someone told you this, they were lying or just had no idea how schools work and were guessing. > early school start times which help teachers at the cost of students A perfect example of how you're veering away from reality with your faulty premise: teachers don't like super-early starts, either! Except the coaches who like having plenty of time for long after-school practices with the sun still up. Parents of athletes may like it, too, just so only one end of their daily schedule changes when their kids' sports are in season (as opposed to having to get them in for an early practice, and pick them up late for a late practice, unable to use the school bus for either end). The justification given for keeping it is usually some combo of "parents want it" (do they? I'm a parent and I fucking don't—but then I don't have any high school athletes in my house yet) and, overriding all other concerns, school sports. Adjusting those schedules may also mean elementary kids start earlier so that the high schoolers can start later, because districts want to be able to stagger bus schedules so they need fewer busses—again, not because teachers are demanding it—which I guess maybe some parents don't like (I'm a parent of elementary kids, and yeah, I'd like them there earlier and the high school kids later, reverse of how most districts do it, but maybe some parents do in fact want their elementary kids starting at 9 o'goddamn-clock when they've already burned 1-2 of their most alert hours for the day, and the high schoolers starting before 8:00, for some reason). It is absolutely not because teachers are demanding to start school before the sun's even up in the Winter.
  - lumost 4y ago
    like daylight savings, I think everyone feels compelled to pretend there is a reason for this madness. I don't believe there is any purpose in the current school start time, but it's been this way for ages. I'm sure it works for at least some people - but I don't see any reason why student athletes couldn't practice in the morning and spare the rest of us.
    - yamtaddle 4y ago
      The sports-parent and coach lobby in high schools is often one of the stronger interest groups. I've known teachers to advocate for later starts in meetings (again: it really, really isn't due to some powerful cabal of ordinary teachers who just looooove starting school incredibly early) and be told sports are the reason it's not gonna happen (plus having to re-do bus schedules—admin hates working). Also, I can report that the old trope of high school athletes getting grades adjusted or being given way more leeway on disciplinary issues, which one might hope was now only observable on retro 80s movie nights, is still very much a real thing. Most teachers hate that crap, too, but administrators, coaches, and sports-parents all like the preferential treatment for athletes.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- 8note 4y ago
  My understanding is that schools are run for the convenience of administrators, who want metrics based performance to look at like butts in seats, test scores, cost per student, etc
  - pc86 4y ago
    I have no doubt administrators have a large role to play in this but "test scores" and "cost per student" seem like perfectly fine metrics by which to judge schools, no?
    - femiagbabiaka 4y ago
      Metrics are meaningless without context, useful only for snap judgements by peanut galleries. Judging by metric is an pernicious antipattern that sounds good but the public and politicians rarely have the time for the contextualization necessary to make truly “data-driven decisions”. This is true outside of school management as well.
    - throwaway0a5e 4y ago
      "I literally don't have the time to cover the Indian Wars or Jim Crow south while still covering what I need to cover so my students can pass the state standardized test" -A teacher I was talking to last week Point is, test scores aren't perfect.
      - brnt 4y ago
        What's the alternative?
      - WalterBright 4y ago
        The idea is to get rid of all standardized testing, so that there will be no contraindications to the story of public school excellence.
- femiagbabiaka 4y ago
  Oh wow. You know U.S. labor is in a terrible place when AFT is described as a powerful union with an outsized influence on elections. (It’s exactly the opposite, actually, the only power teachers have left is the power to strike.)
  - Kamq 4y ago
    > the only power teachers have left is the power to strike. That's the only power any worker has. Pay and/or other powers tend to correlate to how often the worker ceases to work and/or how expensive it would be to replace them (true for both union and non-union workers).

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

beefman 4y ago

In U.S. public schools, this will not be allowed. Schools already do everything they can to discourage and deny teacher switching requests. Why? Because there is a large difference in quality between teachers, and everyone knows which teachers are best, but administrators aren't allowed to fire a teacher with low enrollment because of switching requests, and face class size limits in the case of the good teachers.

MisterBastahrd 4y ago
I live in the US. My daughter switched classes last year. We transferred to the school system before the start of the school year (a much better one than the previous one which mostly catered to children from lower class families) and as a result, she was behind her classmates for her grade and age group. The teacher was openly derogatory towards her when she didn't understand a concept and refused to help her during open study periods. The child was flat out depressed when having to do anything with the class. We had enough and had a conference call with the principal, her assistant, and the teacher. Our kid was in a new class the next day.
svnt 4y ago
My experience is that they make exceptions to this when a teacher loops, for exactly the reason parent describes.
hardtke 4y ago
When my kids were in public elementary school there was a teacher that was so bad that most families who had children assigned to that teacher simply left the school. The administration was going through the procedure to get the teacher removed but it was going to take more than one year. They finally came up with the solution of having the terrible teacher become a "social studies specialist" and have her teach a few hours weekly to every single classroom in the school, thereby diluting her awfulness among the maximum number of students.
- anshorei 4y ago
  > diluting her awfulness among the maximum number of students *polluting with her awfulness the maximum number of students

kbenson 4y ago

In this scenario switching is not just getting a different teacher, but an entirely new set of classmates as well, meaning the child is willingly walking away from all their friends and acquaintances they've made possibly over years. I suspect the vast majority of students will choose to stay with the current teacher, even if a very poor fit for them, because of that.

llbeansandrice 4y ago
I agree, people struggle to leave jobs with horrible bosses due to other aspects that aren't as big as your friend group and support structure as a child. This sounds awful for those kids. I suppose there's an argument to be made about "preparing for the 'real world'" but still.
WaitWaitWha 4y ago
> In this scenario switching is not just getting a different teacher, but an entirely new set of classmates as well, meaning the child is willingly walking away from all their friends and acquaintances they've made possibly over years. Do they (correct me if I am wrong)? What I have seen in the USA, children indeed would switch classes, but relationships are continued on, especially middle and high schools where free time and extra curricular activities are often in shared space and time across classes.
- kbenson 4y ago
  It's a matter of perception, not reality. They no longer will see them all day like they are used to, and instead just at specific times. To someone such as myself that didn't share a lot of classes with my good friends that doesn't seem like a big deal. To someone that may have already spent a couple years with these people all day long? That is likely a very scary thing to consider at a young age.
- vidarh 4y ago
  My sons school (in the UK) intentionally mixed up classes every year through primary school, and I was sceptical at first but it seemed to work quite well, in that they were able to get people away from kids they didn't do well alongside. Obviously mixing like that does not work if you want to keep the kids with the same teacher.