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> I've refused to hire an english major young woman on my development team even under extreme pressure from management because she's a women, but also because s

> I've refused to hire an english major young woman on my development team even under extreme pressure from management because she's a women, but also because she's the CTO's wife's niece That's not "woke", that's just garden variety nepotism.

stuckinhell 4y ago
That's the point, "woke" gives garden variety nepotism a nice shiny ESG approved cover.
- kadoban 4y ago
  If we get rid of everything that some asshole can use as cover, there's not going to be a lot left.
  - stuckinhell 4y ago
    "Woke" is very different that other types of cover. "Woke" gets celebrated and praised, and people have to pretend that hire wasn't hired due to nepotism. As a manager whose been thru this rodeo, let me tell you what happens. 1. We have to have a mini celebration for "woke but really nepotistic" hire at big corporation. 2. We can never mention that persons skill or the "real" reason they got hired. 3. It gives the "elites" far more power to harass people via HR if they don't like the nepotism 4. The non-nepotism hires can become bitter and resentful, even more so when they have to pickup extra work for no department praise or celebrations if the "woke" hire is bad. I also have to give cover for the "woke" hire. 5. My team starts to collapse, and I have to negotiate all sorts of shit to keep my talented hires. It's just an absolute nightmare when managing a high performance results required teams.
  - colpabar 4y ago
    I agree with everything stuckinhell said as she seems to have some first hand experience with this, but I'd like to add that frankly it's just disgusting to use things like civil rights as a corporate HR move. People marched and risked a lot of real things to achieve the rights that we all have today. Now "wokeness" (which used to be cool btw) has been co-opted by corporations and we all have to pretend that a company hiring an unqualified woman who happens to be related to someone on the C-suite is progress just because she's a woman. It makes me sick, and I don't understand how anyone can defend this bullshit.
- Sir_Liigmaz 4y ago
  I work in bank fraud and I have seen several articles celebrating 'girl bosses' who are just trust fund kids. Or a gay CEO that embezzled $30 million. Like yay progress, I guess..?
colpabar 4y ago
It's not "garden variety" nepotism, it's woke nepotism, and it's why so many people have issues with diversity initiatives.
- tptacek 4y ago
  The word "woke" here is just doing the job of establishing it at "the kind of nepotism I find threatening", right? Later (The score on this is absolutely my fault for being much too casual about the point I was trying to make.)
  - exolymph 4y ago
    Seems like the word "woke" is doing the job of establishing "the kind of critique of nepotism that I find threatening" in your own case...
  - colpabar 4y ago
    Another reason people don't like diversity initiatives is that whenever you try to have an honest conversation about its problems, you get accused of ridiculous things, like being racist/sexist/etc or thinking nepotism is good.
    - tptacek 4y ago
      Nobody thinks nepotism is good (or at least, nobody on this thread does). But there are more- and less- threatening versions of it.
      - colpabar 4y ago
        I don't understand what your point is. A company hiring a woman with no relevant experience because she's the niece of the CTO is bad. A company hiring a woman with no relevant experience because she's the niece of the CTO but it's ok this time because she's a woman also seems bad. The former is "garden variety" nepotism, and we all agree it's bad. The latter is the new "woke" nepotism, but it's really the same as the former, with the "woke" part being used as an excuse. How does that benefit anyone other than the people doing the nepotism?
nescioquid 4y ago
I've seen commentary that links the idea of elite overproduction to the rise of preoccupation with diversity within business and more generally within the culture. That's how I took the parent's comment, anyway, and that nepotism was additionally involved in the anecdote just substantiates the elite overproduction argument.

stuckinhell 4y ago

That's the point, "woke" gives garden variety nepotism a nice shiny ESG approved cover.

kadoban 4y ago
If we get rid of everything that some asshole can use as cover, there's not going to be a lot left.
- stuckinhell 4y ago
  "Woke" is very different that other types of cover. "Woke" gets celebrated and praised, and people have to pretend that hire wasn't hired due to nepotism. As a manager whose been thru this rodeo, let me tell you what happens. 1. We have to have a mini celebration for "woke but really nepotistic" hire at big corporation. 2. We can never mention that persons skill or the "real" reason they got hired. 3. It gives the "elites" far more power to harass people via HR if they don't like the nepotism 4. The non-nepotism hires can become bitter and resentful, even more so when they have to pickup extra work for no department praise or celebrations if the "woke" hire is bad. I also have to give cover for the "woke" hire. 5. My team starts to collapse, and I have to negotiate all sorts of shit to keep my talented hires. It's just an absolute nightmare when managing a high performance results required teams.
- colpabar 4y ago
  I agree with everything stuckinhell said as she seems to have some first hand experience with this, but I'd like to add that frankly it's just disgusting to use things like civil rights as a corporate HR move. People marched and risked a lot of real things to achieve the rights that we all have today. Now "wokeness" (which used to be cool btw) has been co-opted by corporations and we all have to pretend that a company hiring an unqualified woman who happens to be related to someone on the C-suite is progress just because she's a woman. It makes me sick, and I don't understand how anyone can defend this bullshit.
Sir_Liigmaz 4y ago
I work in bank fraud and I have seen several articles celebrating 'girl bosses' who are just trust fund kids. Or a gay CEO that embezzled $30 million. Like yay progress, I guess..?

colpabar 4y ago

It's not "garden variety" nepotism, it's woke nepotism, and it's why so many people have issues with diversity initiatives.

tptacek 4y ago
The word "woke" here is just doing the job of establishing it at "the kind of nepotism I find threatening", right? Later (The score on this is absolutely my fault for being much too casual about the point I was trying to make.)
- exolymph 4y ago
  Seems like the word "woke" is doing the job of establishing "the kind of critique of nepotism that I find threatening" in your own case...
- colpabar 4y ago
  Another reason people don't like diversity initiatives is that whenever you try to have an honest conversation about its problems, you get accused of ridiculous things, like being racist/sexist/etc or thinking nepotism is good.
  - tptacek 4y ago
    Nobody thinks nepotism is good (or at least, nobody on this thread does). But there are more- and less- threatening versions of it.
    - colpabar 4y ago
      I don't understand what your point is. A company hiring a woman with no relevant experience because she's the niece of the CTO is bad. A company hiring a woman with no relevant experience because she's the niece of the CTO but it's ok this time because she's a woman also seems bad. The former is "garden variety" nepotism, and we all agree it's bad. The latter is the new "woke" nepotism, but it's really the same as the former, with the "woke" part being used as an excuse. How does that benefit anyone other than the people doing the nepotism?

nescioquid 4y ago

I've seen commentary that links the idea of elite overproduction to the rise of preoccupation with diversity within business and more generally within the culture. That's how I took the parent's comment, anyway, and that nepotism was additionally involved in the anecdote just substantiates the elite overproduction argument.