7 ms·

This seems like a practice that would work for some students and hurt others. Some students may not do well with a particular teacher. Being stuck for years wi

by lumost 4y ago

This seems like a practice that would work for some students and hurt others. Some students may not do well with a particular teacher. Being stuck for years with that teacher is a disservice to the student.

bthater 4y ago
This was my experience in schooling two decades ago. I had the same teacher for Grades 1, 4 and 7. This teacher and I did not work well together and I noticeably got worse grades in grades 4 and 7 than I had in the surrounding years. I am sure the teacher was sick of me by the third year as well.
onemoresoop 4y ago
That one student should be able to switch to a different group. If all want to switch then there's a problem with the instructor. Let's look at the opposite end of the spectrum. Student loves an instructor but is needlessly switched to someone new. My point though is that the flexibility to change or stay in the same group should exist.
- kayodelycaon 4y ago
  Tried this. Was not allowed to switch because it would cause an uneven class size. At least, that's what I was told the policy was for.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - nickff 4y ago
    It's probably true; schools are generally run for the benefit and convenience of teachers, not students. The former have a strong union with outsized influence on local elections, whereas the latter don't even vote. The same incentives lead to early school start times which help teachers at the cost of students (particularly teenagers who generally have 'later' circadian rhythms).
    - freditup 4y ago
      Are teachers really the ones pushing for such early starts of school? Anecdotally, most teachers I know don't love waking up at 5am in order to get ready and get to school on time. I always thought the early start was to have enough time in the afternoon and evening for after-school activities, but not sure.
      - kayodelycaon 4y ago
        My understanding was, it's so teenagers can get home before their younger siblings.
      - zerocrates 4y ago
        I believe it's basically sports plus buses (times are staggered so the same buses can be used for several school levels).
    - yamtaddle 4y ago
      > It's probably true; schools are generally run for the benefit and convenience of teachers, not students. This is, emphatically, not even close to true. If someone told you this, they were lying or just had no idea how schools work and were guessing. > early school start times which help teachers at the cost of students A perfect example of how you're veering away from reality with your faulty premise: teachers don't like super-early starts, either! Except the coaches who like having plenty of time for long after-school practices with the sun still up. Parents of athletes may like it, too, just so only one end of their daily schedule changes when their kids' sports are in season (as opposed to having to get them in for an early practice, and pick them up late for a late practice, unable to use the school bus for either end). The justification given for keeping it is usually some combo of "parents want it" (do they? I'm a parent and I fucking don't—but then I don't have any high school athletes in my house yet) and, overriding all other concerns, school sports. Adjusting those schedules may also mean elementary kids start earlier so that the high schoolers can start later, because districts want to be able to stagger bus schedules so they need fewer busses—again, not because teachers are demanding it—which I guess maybe some parents don't like (I'm a parent of elementary kids, and yeah, I'd like them there earlier and the high school kids later, reverse of how most districts do it, but maybe some parents do in fact want their elementary kids starting at 9 o'goddamn-clock when they've already burned 1-2 of their most alert hours for the day, and the high schoolers starting before 8:00, for some reason). It is absolutely not because teachers are demanding to start school before the sun's even up in the Winter.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- beefman 4y ago
  In U.S. public schools, this will not be allowed. Schools already do everything they can to discourage and deny teacher switching requests. Why? Because there is a large difference in quality between teachers, and everyone knows which teachers are best, but administrators aren't allowed to fire a teacher with low enrollment because of switching requests, and face class size limits in the case of the good teachers.
  - MisterBastahrd 4y ago
    I live in the US. My daughter switched classes last year. We transferred to the school system before the start of the school year (a much better one than the previous one which mostly catered to children from lower class families) and as a result, she was behind her classmates for her grade and age group. The teacher was openly derogatory towards her when she didn't understand a concept and refused to help her during open study periods. The child was flat out depressed when having to do anything with the class. We had enough and had a conference call with the principal, her assistant, and the teacher. Our kid was in a new class the next day.
  - svnt 4y ago
    My experience is that they make exceptions to this when a teacher loops, for exactly the reason parent describes.
  - hardtke 4y ago
    When my kids were in public elementary school there was a teacher that was so bad that most families who had children assigned to that teacher simply left the school. The administration was going through the procedure to get the teacher removed but it was going to take more than one year. They finally came up with the solution of having the terrible teacher become a "social studies specialist" and have her teach a few hours weekly to every single classroom in the school, thereby diluting her awfulness among the maximum number of students.
    - anshorei 4y ago
      > diluting her awfulness among the maximum number of students *polluting with her awfulness the maximum number of students
- kbenson 4y ago
  In this scenario switching is not just getting a different teacher, but an entirely new set of classmates as well, meaning the child is willingly walking away from all their friends and acquaintances they've made possibly over years. I suspect the vast majority of students will choose to stay with the current teacher, even if a very poor fit for them, because of that.
  - llbeansandrice 4y ago
    I agree, people struggle to leave jobs with horrible bosses due to other aspects that aren't as big as your friend group and support structure as a child. This sounds awful for those kids. I suppose there's an argument to be made about "preparing for the 'real world'" but still.
  - WaitWaitWha 4y ago
    > In this scenario switching is not just getting a different teacher, but an entirely new set of classmates as well, meaning the child is willingly walking away from all their friends and acquaintances they've made possibly over years. Do they (correct me if I am wrong)? What I have seen in the USA, children indeed would switch classes, but relationships are continued on, especially middle and high schools where free time and extra curricular activities are often in shared space and time across classes.
    - kbenson 4y ago
      It's a matter of perception, not reality. They no longer will see them all day like they are used to, and instead just at specific times. To someone such as myself that didn't share a lot of classes with my good friends that doesn't seem like a big deal. To someone that may have already spent a couple years with these people all day long? That is likely a very scary thing to consider at a young age.
    - vidarh 4y ago
      My sons school (in the UK) intentionally mixed up classes every year through primary school, and I was sceptical at first but it seemed to work quite well, in that they were able to get people away from kids they didn't do well alongside. Obviously mixing like that does not work if you want to keep the kids with the same teacher.
kemiller2002 4y ago
That's what happened to my student. He went to s small elementary school and didn't get along with a particular teacher. He switched schools and bam different kid entirely.
calvinmorrison 4y ago
I had this exact experience. My sister loved our school, but also had all the 'good' teachers. I was in a different roster and ended up not enjoying my classes and eventually dropped out.
onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
Ideally there would be more than one option.
evancoop 4y ago
Seems like, in aggregate, the question is whether adding variance to outcomes is net positive or negative? Some students will receive multiple consecutive years of excellent instruction, others will receive multiple consecutive years of subpar instruction. Does the upside contain innovation and social mobility? Does the downside contain increased disillusionment with school and education broadly? We pull the goalie when the odds are against us and increased variance is desirable. Is this such a case? Sadly, it may be.
- 8note 4y ago
  I had split 3/4 and 5/6 classes, where you stayed with the same teacher and students for both years, with either an older or a younger cohort with you to fill out the other grade Theres at least one benefit outside of having a good teacher for two years - - the teacher starts the second year with context about your skills and what needs improvement. Eg. They can spend the summer knowing how many students are ahead and plan relevant coursework The downside was around not interacting with the students who have the other teacher much for a couple years. Much harder to retain those friends
  - lumost 4y ago
    This assumes that the teacher correctly identified what needs improvement, or cares to improve you. Neither of these are given. My recollection of school was that I was often miss-understood by teachers resulting in net-negative interventions. Sometimes I'd be fortunate and click with the right teacher. In aggregate my current success depends heavily on those few times I clicked.
beebmam 4y ago
The less I interacted with teachers, the better I did. Children can differ so much in how they learn best.
- omegalulw 4y ago
  I would say that's more of a reflection of your teachers then unless you have a really exceptional style of learning.
  - joshspankit 4y ago
    You may have a point in there, but not one that can counter the comment you are replying to. Some bullet points: - Many kids “learn the same”. From the perspective of schools, it’s true that differences in children can sometimes actually be differences in teachers - In some school systems (such as Western public school) the teachers are all railroaded in to teaching the same and having the same attitudes in class. In that way, it’s also possible that a student who has issues with a particular teacher would have issues with many teachers throughout school - Even among the kids who “learn the same”, there are massive differences internally. What we don’t see are the kids who work twice as hard and think that’s the amount of work everyone is doing, or the kids who are auditory learners but learn to read the words aloud in their head in order to remember them, or thousands upon thousands of ways that “non-typical” kids learn to mask their differences while thinking that it’s just what everyone does - Objectively a lot of kids learn differently. We’re at the stage where teachers are taught this as a normal thing. On one hand the school system screens for all sorts of differences that might cause learning issues (like dyslexia), and on the other hand teachers are bringing different teaching styles in to classrooms so that all the “typical” kids can learn in their own style.
LoveMortuus 4y ago
But that's life though. Even when you get a job there are people that you don't get along with, but you still find a way to make it work. If you would just move that student to a teacher that they preferred, might instill wrong perceptions of reality in the kid. They're both humans. Humans can talk and reason, why not use that to try and solve the issues? Edit: Feel free to down vote, but I'm of the opinion that adversity builds character and even more, it makes you into a person that people can rely on in tough situations. I know that parents these days want to make the lives of theirs kids so smooth that they'll never see a 90° degree angle in their life, but that's just not how the world work. At least the majority, I don't know how it's in US and huge cities. I'm from a village where everyone knows everyone.
- darkarmani 4y ago
  > Even when you get a job there are people that you don't get along with, but you still find a way to make it work. You expect a 6 year old to have the insight and emotional maturity to work around with a terrible teacher? Why would they even need a teacher if they could overcome that kind of adversity by themselves?
- JimmieMcnulty 4y ago
  Children aren’t full humans yet, that’s the whole point of doing stuff differently for them…
  - LoveMortuus 4y ago
    That's why it's better to use such a situation for learning.
- anchochilis 4y ago
  People with jobs are free to seek out new jobs. Yoking a student to a bad teacher for 2+ years is the opposite of a real-life situation.
  - LoveMortuus 4y ago
toast0 4y ago
> This seems like a practice that would work for some students and hurt others. We need to figure out how to enact school practices in a way that different people get different practices; ideally lined up with what works for those people. Obviously, if the school is small enough that it's one teacher per grade level, you can't have some kids in the grade loop and others not.
- WalterBright 4y ago
  We already know that that way is - free market schools. Free markets work through mutual consent between provider and providee.
jvvw 4y ago
Also some teachers are better than others! I think two year in a row can have advantages. But different teachers bring different perspectives and different strengths. Sometimes a teacher will magically click in some way with your child and bring something out of them that other teachers hadn't managed. I remember having the same English teacher (as in English literature) for five years (slightly accidentally - we got randomly allocated a couple of times and I ended up with her each time) and I think it gave me a rather narrow view of the subject.

by lumost 4y ago

bthater 4y ago

This was my experience in schooling two decades ago. I had the same teacher for Grades 1, 4 and 7. This teacher and I did not work well together and I noticeably got worse grades in grades 4 and 7 than I had in the surrounding years. I am sure the teacher was sick of me by the third year as well.

onemoresoop 4y ago

That one student should be able to switch to a different group. If all want to switch then there's a problem with the instructor. Let's look at the opposite end of the spectrum. Student loves an instructor but is needlessly switched to someone new. My point though is that the flexibility to change or stay in the same group should exist.

kayodelycaon 4y ago
Tried this. Was not allowed to switch because it would cause an uneven class size. At least, that's what I was told the policy was for.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- nickff 4y ago
  It's probably true; schools are generally run for the benefit and convenience of teachers, not students. The former have a strong union with outsized influence on local elections, whereas the latter don't even vote. The same incentives lead to early school start times which help teachers at the cost of students (particularly teenagers who generally have 'later' circadian rhythms).
  - freditup 4y ago
    Are teachers really the ones pushing for such early starts of school? Anecdotally, most teachers I know don't love waking up at 5am in order to get ready and get to school on time. I always thought the early start was to have enough time in the afternoon and evening for after-school activities, but not sure.
    - kayodelycaon 4y ago
      My understanding was, it's so teenagers can get home before their younger siblings.
    - zerocrates 4y ago
      I believe it's basically sports plus buses (times are staggered so the same buses can be used for several school levels).
  - yamtaddle 4y ago
    > It's probably true; schools are generally run for the benefit and convenience of teachers, not students. This is, emphatically, not even close to true. If someone told you this, they were lying or just had no idea how schools work and were guessing. > early school start times which help teachers at the cost of students A perfect example of how you're veering away from reality with your faulty premise: teachers don't like super-early starts, either! Except the coaches who like having plenty of time for long after-school practices with the sun still up. Parents of athletes may like it, too, just so only one end of their daily schedule changes when their kids' sports are in season (as opposed to having to get them in for an early practice, and pick them up late for a late practice, unable to use the school bus for either end). The justification given for keeping it is usually some combo of "parents want it" (do they? I'm a parent and I fucking don't—but then I don't have any high school athletes in my house yet) and, overriding all other concerns, school sports. Adjusting those schedules may also mean elementary kids start earlier so that the high schoolers can start later, because districts want to be able to stagger bus schedules so they need fewer busses—again, not because teachers are demanding it—which I guess maybe some parents don't like (I'm a parent of elementary kids, and yeah, I'd like them there earlier and the high school kids later, reverse of how most districts do it, but maybe some parents do in fact want their elementary kids starting at 9 o'goddamn-clock when they've already burned 1-2 of their most alert hours for the day, and the high schoolers starting before 8:00, for some reason). It is absolutely not because teachers are demanding to start school before the sun's even up in the Winter.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
beefman 4y ago
In U.S. public schools, this will not be allowed. Schools already do everything they can to discourage and deny teacher switching requests. Why? Because there is a large difference in quality between teachers, and everyone knows which teachers are best, but administrators aren't allowed to fire a teacher with low enrollment because of switching requests, and face class size limits in the case of the good teachers.
- MisterBastahrd 4y ago
  I live in the US. My daughter switched classes last year. We transferred to the school system before the start of the school year (a much better one than the previous one which mostly catered to children from lower class families) and as a result, she was behind her classmates for her grade and age group. The teacher was openly derogatory towards her when she didn't understand a concept and refused to help her during open study periods. The child was flat out depressed when having to do anything with the class. We had enough and had a conference call with the principal, her assistant, and the teacher. Our kid was in a new class the next day.
- svnt 4y ago
  My experience is that they make exceptions to this when a teacher loops, for exactly the reason parent describes.
- hardtke 4y ago
  When my kids were in public elementary school there was a teacher that was so bad that most families who had children assigned to that teacher simply left the school. The administration was going through the procedure to get the teacher removed but it was going to take more than one year. They finally came up with the solution of having the terrible teacher become a "social studies specialist" and have her teach a few hours weekly to every single classroom in the school, thereby diluting her awfulness among the maximum number of students.
  - anshorei 4y ago
    > diluting her awfulness among the maximum number of students *polluting with her awfulness the maximum number of students
kbenson 4y ago
In this scenario switching is not just getting a different teacher, but an entirely new set of classmates as well, meaning the child is willingly walking away from all their friends and acquaintances they've made possibly over years. I suspect the vast majority of students will choose to stay with the current teacher, even if a very poor fit for them, because of that.
- llbeansandrice 4y ago
  I agree, people struggle to leave jobs with horrible bosses due to other aspects that aren't as big as your friend group and support structure as a child. This sounds awful for those kids. I suppose there's an argument to be made about "preparing for the 'real world'" but still.
- WaitWaitWha 4y ago
  > In this scenario switching is not just getting a different teacher, but an entirely new set of classmates as well, meaning the child is willingly walking away from all their friends and acquaintances they've made possibly over years. Do they (correct me if I am wrong)? What I have seen in the USA, children indeed would switch classes, but relationships are continued on, especially middle and high schools where free time and extra curricular activities are often in shared space and time across classes.
  - kbenson 4y ago
    It's a matter of perception, not reality. They no longer will see them all day like they are used to, and instead just at specific times. To someone such as myself that didn't share a lot of classes with my good friends that doesn't seem like a big deal. To someone that may have already spent a couple years with these people all day long? That is likely a very scary thing to consider at a young age.
  - vidarh 4y ago
    My sons school (in the UK) intentionally mixed up classes every year through primary school, and I was sceptical at first but it seemed to work quite well, in that they were able to get people away from kids they didn't do well alongside. Obviously mixing like that does not work if you want to keep the kids with the same teacher.

kemiller2002 4y ago

That's what happened to my student. He went to s small elementary school and didn't get along with a particular teacher. He switched schools and bam different kid entirely.

calvinmorrison 4y ago

I had this exact experience. My sister loved our school, but also had all the 'good' teachers. I was in a different roster and ended up not enjoying my classes and eventually dropped out.

onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago

Ideally there would be more than one option.

evancoop 4y ago

Seems like, in aggregate, the question is whether adding variance to outcomes is net positive or negative? Some students will receive multiple consecutive years of excellent instruction, others will receive multiple consecutive years of subpar instruction. Does the upside contain innovation and social mobility? Does the downside contain increased disillusionment with school and education broadly? We pull the goalie when the odds are against us and increased variance is desirable. Is this such a case? Sadly, it may be.

8note 4y ago
I had split 3/4 and 5/6 classes, where you stayed with the same teacher and students for both years, with either an older or a younger cohort with you to fill out the other grade Theres at least one benefit outside of having a good teacher for two years - - the teacher starts the second year with context about your skills and what needs improvement. Eg. They can spend the summer knowing how many students are ahead and plan relevant coursework The downside was around not interacting with the students who have the other teacher much for a couple years. Much harder to retain those friends
- lumost 4y ago
  This assumes that the teacher correctly identified what needs improvement, or cares to improve you. Neither of these are given. My recollection of school was that I was often miss-understood by teachers resulting in net-negative interventions. Sometimes I'd be fortunate and click with the right teacher. In aggregate my current success depends heavily on those few times I clicked.

beebmam 4y ago

The less I interacted with teachers, the better I did. Children can differ so much in how they learn best.

omegalulw 4y ago
I would say that's more of a reflection of your teachers then unless you have a really exceptional style of learning.
- joshspankit 4y ago
  You may have a point in there, but not one that can counter the comment you are replying to. Some bullet points: - Many kids “learn the same”. From the perspective of schools, it’s true that differences in children can sometimes actually be differences in teachers - In some school systems (such as Western public school) the teachers are all railroaded in to teaching the same and having the same attitudes in class. In that way, it’s also possible that a student who has issues with a particular teacher would have issues with many teachers throughout school - Even among the kids who “learn the same”, there are massive differences internally. What we don’t see are the kids who work twice as hard and think that’s the amount of work everyone is doing, or the kids who are auditory learners but learn to read the words aloud in their head in order to remember them, or thousands upon thousands of ways that “non-typical” kids learn to mask their differences while thinking that it’s just what everyone does - Objectively a lot of kids learn differently. We’re at the stage where teachers are taught this as a normal thing. On one hand the school system screens for all sorts of differences that might cause learning issues (like dyslexia), and on the other hand teachers are bringing different teaching styles in to classrooms so that all the “typical” kids can learn in their own style.

LoveMortuus 4y ago

But that's life though. Even when you get a job there are people that you don't get along with, but you still find a way to make it work. If you would just move that student to a teacher that they preferred, might instill wrong perceptions of reality in the kid. They're both humans. Humans can talk and reason, why not use that to try and solve the issues? Edit: Feel free to down vote, but I'm of the opinion that adversity builds character and even more, it makes you into a person that people can rely on in tough situations. I know that parents these days want to make the lives of theirs kids so smooth that they'll never see a 90° degree angle in their life, but that's just not how the world work. At least the majority, I don't know how it's in US and huge cities. I'm from a village where everyone knows everyone.

darkarmani 4y ago
> Even when you get a job there are people that you don't get along with, but you still find a way to make it work. You expect a 6 year old to have the insight and emotional maturity to work around with a terrible teacher? Why would they even need a teacher if they could overcome that kind of adversity by themselves?
JimmieMcnulty 4y ago
Children aren’t full humans yet, that’s the whole point of doing stuff differently for them…
- LoveMortuus 4y ago
  That's why it's better to use such a situation for learning.
anchochilis 4y ago
People with jobs are free to seek out new jobs. Yoking a student to a bad teacher for 2+ years is the opposite of a real-life situation.
- LoveMortuus 4y ago

toast0 4y ago

> This seems like a practice that would work for some students and hurt others. We need to figure out how to enact school practices in a way that different people get different practices; ideally lined up with what works for those people. Obviously, if the school is small enough that it's one teacher per grade level, you can't have some kids in the grade loop and others not.

WalterBright 4y ago
We already know that that way is - free market schools. Free markets work through mutual consent between provider and providee.

jvvw 4y ago

Also some teachers are better than others! I think two year in a row can have advantages. But different teachers bring different perspectives and different strengths. Sometimes a teacher will magically click in some way with your child and bring something out of them that other teachers hadn't managed. I remember having the same English teacher (as in English literature) for five years (slightly accidentally - we got randomly allocated a couple of times and I ended up with her each time) and I think it gave me a rather narrow view of the subject.