11 ms·
Framework Ethernet Expansion Card is now available
- Jiejeing 4y agoIt does look a bit cheap, and the protruding part is not aesthetically pleasing, but at least it has good specs. I wish they could make it work while keeping it the same form factors as the other parts.
- liminalsunset 4y agoThe problem with the protruding part is that the Ethernet port itself is thicker than the laptop body itself. In this case, even if they were to go the route that some thin laptops use (hinged collapsible port), it would likely hit the table due to the thinness of the laptop. If you put the port on a little cable, you're back to the USB-C dongle thing.
- Jiejeing 4y agoYes, I know there is no good engineering solution unless you accept to have thicker expansion cards on both sides (e.g. with rubber pads on the bottom) that would be used as slightly elevated support for the laptop.
- ChuckNorris89 4y agoIt wouldn't hit the table because foldable Ethernet ports fold up, not down. https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2017/12/8/16750574/pop-out-ethernet-jack https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2017/12/8/16750574/p...
- danudey 4y agoMore moving parts reduces reliability. Also, most laptops with collapsable ethernet ports do indeed fold down. I've seen dozens of them, but I've never seen a port like the one you posted (probably because it's a terrible idea, but maybe for other reasons).
- kibwen 4y agoAlthough, to be fair, it would certainly drive home the Framework's repairability after the fifth time that the collapsible port breaks. :P
- dannyw 4y agoWe can make airplanes. I'm sure we can make a folding Ethernet port that is reliable enough. I will never accept bad design. This is bad design.
- smm11 4y agoWhy do I think "desktop" when I see such fast-access ability?
- rektide 4y ago80Gbps usb4 2.0 host-to-host connectivity is 32x faster. (2^5 magnitudes.) Coming soon to almost all decent laptops.
- soneil 4y agoI use 10gig for a dedicated link to a NAS. It drives me nuts that easily-accessible networking is so far behind storage speeds. SATA-I (2003) is faster than gigabit ethernet. SATA-II (2004) is faster than 2.5GigE. So why 2.5GigE on a laptop? So when you're at your desk, where your laptop spends 90%+ of its life, your bulk storage can have access speeds that are at least from this century, if only just.
- vardump 4y ago2.5 Gbit/s is slow when we're talking about storage. Even for a laptop. Some folks work with large files, like large VMs, raw video, etc.
- liminalsunset 4y agoThis is a nice throwback to the form factor of PCMCIA cards for really old laptops - the original expansion card slot for notebook computers. [1] The cards often had to stick out, whether to host a thick connector or an antenna. Here, we see a miniaturized version of that form factor... Later, this was replaced by ExpressCard, but that never took off as much as PCMCIA cards. Back in the day, laptops came with one or two PCMCIA slots, which could be used to add full size IEEE1394, USB, Ethernet, or even Wi-Fi ports. I remember having to use an ORiNOCO Gold Wi-Fi card to get online back in the day. I had a desktop that had a slot in the front that it plugged into [1] https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=pcmcia&iax=images&ia=images https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=pcmcia&iax=images&ia=images
- sschueller 4y agoSadly USB-C is not the same as PCMCIA or PCIe.
- reisse 4y agoUSB-C (as a connector) is perfectly capable of delivering PCI Express via either Thunderbolt or USB4.
- qwerty456127 4y ago> delivering PCI Express via either Thunderbolt or USB4. What's the difference?
- pdpi 4y agoMy understanding is that, roughly, TB3 ⊂ USB4 ⊂ TB4. The USB4 spec is based on TB3, and (mostly?) requires TB3 compatibility, and TB4 is effectively USB4 plus bells and whistles. I think this goes to the point of USB4 ports with all the optional features qualifying as TB4 ports.
- kcb 4y agoNeeds pretty expensive chipsets to do that though
- ortusdux 4y agoPrevious discussion (yesterday): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32814453 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32814453
- micromacrofoot 4y agotransparent cases in electronics seem to be making a comeback lately
- HeckFeck 4y agoNow we just need to get them tinted in every colour of the rainbow, and we're back on the hueful road we foolishly abandoned.
- throwaway742 4y agoI miss beige.
- sschueller 4y agoI'll repeat what I said in yesterday's thread. I want to see SFP ports. Specifically SFP28 so I can stick in my 25gbit fiber modules etc. There is no way to get SFP28 on a laptop to my knowledge as USB-C (yet, USB 4 could do it) is not fast enough. It has to interface directly with PCIe.
- jbotdev 4y agoWhat would you do on one of these laptops that would take advantage of a 25Gb connection?
- sschueller 4y agoConnect it to my internet connection [1]. [1] https://www.init7.net/en/internet/fiber7/ https://www.init7.net/en/internet/fiber7/
- alexchantavy 4y agoWhoa, 25Gb symmetrical for normal consumers? Is this Switzerland only?
- AdamJacobMuller 4y agoI don't think there's anything normal about someone who has 25Gbit at home.
- sschueller 4y agoThat is what people said when I had a 1.5mbit T1 line at home providing internet to my neighbors via 802.11b bridges back in the late 90'.
- sschueller 4y agoYes Switzerland only but I did just recently see an article on HN of the first US provider that was going to offer it.
- TapamN 4y agoI don't understand what the advantage of an expansion card that sticks out like that is over using something external on a cable. The main point of the self contained expansions is that you are unlikely to loose them and they can safely travel around with the device. With a card that protrudes like that, if you want to put the laptop in a bag, you have to take the card out, or risk damaging the card and/or laptop as the protrusion gets levered around. The expansion cards plug into USB-C connectors that are soldered directly onto the motherboard, so the risk of damaging the motherboard though the expansion card does exist (although it's probably not that likely, and any damage would probably be localized to just the motherboard's USB connector). With a external Ethernet port, you can have the USB expansion card in between the motherboard and the USB Ethernet device, to prevent wear on the motherboard's connector when repeatedly connecting and disconnecting the device. So what's the gain by using the expansion card format, when it can't permanently live in the laptop? You might as well just use a cable. I guess maybe if you only carry the laptop by hand and have to constantly use Ethernet, like if you're debugging a network installation, it would be good? But a regular USB Ethernet port seems like it would be more practical for most cases.
- Terretta 4y agoUPDATE: After replying to parent, I read further and saw others mentioned XJACK seventeen hours ago, the actual technology the PCMCIA I mention is using. - - — > card that sticks out like that remember PCMCIA cards? back in those good old days of laptops taking a universal expansion card physical format, the Ethernet cards often had a spring loaded pop-out jack to hold the Ethernet cable. look at the picture for this on wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PC_Card https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PC_Card https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PC_Card#/media/File:XJACK_network_card_extended.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PC_Card#/media/File:XJACK_netw... Framework is simply “doing it wrong”. // disclaimer: I own the latest Frame.work model, my bias to want their success is strong enough that I bought one
- kelnos 4y agoI was thinking the same thing. Sure, this is better than a dongle in some ways, but is still an order of magnitude worse than the normal, flush-fitting expansion cards. I do recall someone on the Framework subreddit saying that they carry a laptop around with them on a shop/factory floor, but mostly use wired ethernet when they stop and put it down on a workbench. Using a dongle wouldn't be great because it'd be something that would swing around unpredictably as he'd walk around a crowded room with lots of people and machines running. So in this case, this expansion card would probably be a useful step up from a dongle. Regardless, a retractable "XJACK"[0] from the PCMCIA days might have been a better choice for this, if the hardware could be made "short" enough in that dimension. Downside there is of course fragility; I imagine they're easy to snap off. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XJACK https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XJACK
- bosswipe 4y agoA better design for ethernet on thin laptops is a hinge that expands when the cable is plugged in: https://1.img-dpreview.com/files/p/TS560x560~forums/59371721/f0aa2e5238734c6ead1706c6c7c4114d https://1.img-dpreview.com/files/p/TS560x560~forums/59371721...
- distantsounds 4y agothere might be a patent around it, unfortunately.
- causality0 4y agoWhy's it stick out the side? I thought we mastered folding ethernet jacks twenty years ago.
- pikminguy 4y agoThat depends on your definition of "mastered" we certainly know how to make them but I don't think there's ever been an example that wasn't cumbersome, fragile, or both.
- causality0 4y agoHow is this cumbersome or fragile? https://i.imgur.com/CgAMAp3.jpg https://i.imgur.com/CgAMAp3.jpg
- bioemerl 4y agoI think where these guys made a mistake was not designing some sort of back slot for things like this where you could put a slab on the back of the laptop. Slab on the back would have enough space, it wouldn't look so weird and cheap, and you could put all sorts of fun stuff back there like an actual docking module. Or extra batteries. I would be amazed if this thing sells much at all, because having that big square thing come out of the side of the laptop just looks like it's asking to break. It looks wrong, it feels wrong, and it's just not going to work.
- ImprovedSilence 4y ago>> It looks wrong, it feels wrong, and it's just not going to work. Eh, the RJ-45 jack is thicker than the laptop, I think this is good enough of a solution for now. And I’m someone that would spring for the ethernet adapter. I’d consider getting a framework, but I’d start by buying the low end of everything, and just see how many years I could keep running it, ship of Theseus style. That said, it wouldn’t be my main dev machine…
- bioemerl 4y agoIt's thicker, but is there a USB-C 2.5gbps dongle on the market? I can't imagine someone opting for this sort of solution over a dongle.
- andreareina 4y agoFor occasional plugging in a dongle I keep in by bag would be preferred. For frequent plugging in that gets cumbersome and I'd prefer the module or if I were feeling extravagant a dongle permanently attached to each ethernet cable.
- jagger27 4y agoYeah there are plenty of cheap ones to choose from.
- firecall 4y agoWhy do we still have the RJ45 connectors at all? We've transitioned other technologies. Is the industry so focused on WiFi that they are just hoping it will go away for end user devices? Surely even if the data-centre a compact alternative would be a cost saving due to taking up less space? What am I missing here?
- PostOnce 4y agoWho is "we"? What other technology? I can not begin to imagine how many facilities on this earth require a man, a laptop, and an ethernet cable. Jesus it must be _a lot_. Ethernet isn't going anywhere. Serial ports haven't gone anywhere. I literally was in a factory 2 hours ago where they are manufacturing new, >$100,000 machines that have both serial and ethernet ports, both of which will remain standards for god knows how many decades. We use USB dongles for the serial stuff now, but even that is not possible for some applications iirc.
- alex_suzuki 4y ago> a man, a laptop, and an ethernet cable I know the setup you’re alluding to, but hey… surely the job could also be done by a woman?
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- PostOnce 4y agoI'm sorry but your ageism offends me. Are we just going to exclude teens and children? Can a 15 year old not operate a laptop? "Man" and "Woman" imply adults, and ageism is not okay. Do you see how fast this type of cultural revolution bullshit goes downhill? Someone else can always be more sanctimonious. I of course used "man" in place of "person" as has been common (and correct) for thousands of years. Man can mean "mankind" or "a person", and does not exclusively mean "male", and never has. Sort of like how "guys" now means "people". In fact, "man" meant person before it meant "male", it literally predates the English language. It's so old it predates writing. It's one of the oldest words we have. https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=man https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=man Next time, don't assume the worst in people, and don't be so sanctimonious. Not every turn of phrase is an act of malice.
- eternityforest 4y agoI really like the USB based expansion card system. Not sure this is really the best implementation, but I could see a lot of applications for a similar format, if it didn't stick out as much. We finally have one good connector that almost everyone seems to trust, that is both cheap and reliable. I bet there's a lot of places it can be used. I'd like to see a home automation hub that had expansion ports like this for adding multiple radios. Or a Raspberry Pi class device that just had these connections so you could choose exactly what ports you need. But I kind of have some doubts about this particular use case. I think it will be pretty specialist. USB to ethernet adapters are cheap. In the future, I could see moving towards direct USB connections. Routers might someday have a usb network port built in. You could have wall outlets that expose the network as a USB to ethernet dongle. Long term that would seem to be a bit nicer, just not have any bulky Ethernet anywhere near mobile stuff , hide it behind permanently mounted converters.
- zapdrive 4y agoI'd rather buy a 35$ USB-C dongle from Amazon that comes with Ethernet, 3 USB 2.0 ports, couple USB-C ports, SD card reader and an HDMI.
- neilv 4y agoDoes anyone happen to know whether there's been business analysis on a TrackPoint option for the Framework laptop? Anecdotally, ThinkPads have a substantial following, and there's also been concerns about more recent Lenovo quality and design choices, and there's arguably a question-mark wrt some security threat models. I'm curious what the business numbers would look like, for what Framework could do, and how many ThinkPad devotees they could convert.
- komadori 4y agoNot an answer, but nrp commented previously ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32181892 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32181892 ) that the tooling costs for a pointing stick would be in the region of half a million dollars. My gut feeling is that you could recoup that, but it might not be the most effective way for them to spend that capital right now. If nothing else, I'd like to see a crowdfunding campaign for it so I can put my money where my mouth is ;-).
- neilv 4y agoVery helpful, thank you. Looks like some of that cost is to redo something that was already done. If turns out that doesn't make sense right now, then maybe there's another opportunity if they later have to redo tooling anyway for other reasons.
- TOGoS 4y agoI have a Framework laptop, and it's pretty nice, I guess, but I would not have minded it being a few mm thicker, and then this could have been a more normal module. I never understood the appeal of paper-thin laptops.
- silon42 4y agoYup, too thin is a serious downside to this laptop and many others... Even new Thinkpads have this problem.
- bodge5000 4y agoIt feels like we're way past the point of people caring about how thin a device is. There was a period of time when the biggest spec a phone could have was how thin they got it, but we've moved past that. Especially in a laptop, I worry about thermals, I doubt they're a problem on the Framework but I cant help but worry.
- Ekaros 4y agoI find it even more strange design decision as this is marketed as repairable machine. Surely a few more millimetres would have made many many things substantially easier. And I'm pretty sure the core target audience would have accepted it.
- vaylian 4y agoIt was already announced in early development that this is going to be an oversized expansion card. No bad surprises here. And if this is sitting as stable as the other expansion cards, then there should not be much of an issue transporting it. I'm a bit surprised that there is no blog post about the release of the ethernet card yet.
- esskay 4y agoThis just makes me mad that we never came up with a newer ethernet standard that allowed for smaller ports. I know it creates a ton of compatability problems but its just so unnecesserily huge when you consider its only 8 pins. You could half the height and retain the lock-in clip functionality quite easily.
- gsich 4y agoThere are newer standards. But so many to chose from.
- cesarb 4y ago> This just makes me mad that we never came up with a newer ethernet standard that allowed for smaller ports. AFAIK, there's one, IEC 61076-3-124, but it doesn't seem to be very common.
- flacebo 4y agoI think you highly underestimate the compatibility problems it would cause. You'd have to replace the global networking infrastructure. Starting from every wall plug to the switches and backbone devices. The new connector would have to be easily crimpable, and hopefully as cheap as RJ45, I don't think you could go much slimmer. All of this just so your end device can be a little bit slimmer. Definitely not worth it. Using both at the same time so you could leave the backbone alone might work, but this already exists in the form of a usb type-c network adapter.
- bodge5000 4y agoI wish there was a modern laptop with something like the Thinkpad Ultradock, where the laptop connects to a stand-dock via a connection on the bottom. If you do your typing on the laptop keyboard itself, they provide a nice bit of elevation, charging and loads of ports, and can be disconnected by just pressing a button. I doubt we'll see it again, even Thinkpad ditched it iirc. But it feels like it'd be perfect for Framework, as the ports on the dock itself could be modular like the laptop. I'd largely solve the problem of this ethernet port not looking flush, as it'd set out of view. Probably just wishful thinking
- cesarb 4y ago> [...] via a connection on the bottom [...] Probably just wishful thinking The bottom of the Framework expansion cards is exposed, so it would be possible to design an expansion card which exposed a dock connection on the bottom. It wouldn't be as good as the dock connection on these old Thinkpad and Dell laptops, which was centered, since the Framework expansion cards are on the sides and not on the center; but it could be made by a third party, without having to wait for the laptop manufacturer.