5 ms·

Interactive, nonlinear stories == interactive fiction (IF) == text adventure games in the style of 1980s Infocom. It's interesting that the Twine website seems

by pavlov 4y ago

Interactive, nonlinear stories == interactive fiction (IF) == text adventure games in the style of 1980s Infocom. It's interesting that the Twine website seems to actively avoid calling them IF or text adventures or games, and prefers "stories" instead. Maybe the community feels that those labels are too limiting. (I haven't played any contemporary IF or any Twine experiences, so just observing as an outsider.)

kelseyfrog 4y ago
I've made several Twine stories, participated in IF jams, and see folks using IF/stories/&c fairly interchangeably. It could certainly be that Twine keeps a naming convention in order to be neutral, but as an IF writer and therefore more or less a community member, it's not something that I see people fighting over as opposed, say for instance, to the roguelike community.
- the_af 4y ago
  There was one pretty bizarre Twine story about genetically engineered ponies. It was subtle, you didn't realize how gross it was at first reading. It was brilliant. Do you remember the name?
  - RodgerTheGreat 4y ago
    You're probably thinking of Horse Master: The Game of Horse Mastery.
    - the_af 4y ago
      Yes! That one. Thanks!
_ebt8 4y ago
My GR writes IF stories and I think even though there’s ressemblance with the text adventure games it seems that they manage to differentiate themselves by being closer to books and mainstream fiction. It seems like the average IF is read more like a book and less like a game.
- growt 4y ago
  Sorry to be off topic, but what’s a GR? Just a typo of GF? I searched but the only thing I found was Golden Retriever and I don’t think they are very good at writing fiction in general.
  - _ebt8 4y ago
    Whoops yeah, it was indeed GF*
qbasic_forever 4y ago
> interactive fiction (IF) == text adventure games in the style of 1980s Infocom. Not necessarily, infocom style games are just a subgenre of modern interactive fiction nowadays. Infocom style games are enormous and full of obscure puzzles, mazes, etc. that require hours and hours of gameplay. IF has branched out a lot and most stories are written to be completed in less than an hour and typically have less infuriating puzzles or mazes, along with complete help and hint systems. There are tons of award winning IF stories that involve no real combat, puzzles, etc. and are just exploration of interesting environments or talking to characters. Check out some of the winners from the annual IF competition for a great sampling of modern IF: https://ifcomp.org/comp/2021 https://ifcomp.org/comp/2021 Emily Short in particular is someone who really pushes the boundaries of IF, her story Galatea from the early 2000s is a great example of how far beyond Infocom style games IF has gone: https://www.ifwiki.org/Emily_Short https://www.ifwiki.org/Emily_Short and https://ifdb.org/viewgame?id=urxrv27t7qtu52lb https://ifdb.org/viewgame?id=urxrv27t7qtu52lb
- the_af 4y ago
  Emily Short, Zarf, Adam Cadre. All masters breaking the boundaries of the IF genre. Adam Cadre's Photopia [1] made me choke some tears. His 9:05 [2] is darkly comical, and is fun to explore again once you know what it is about. Zarf's Spider and Web [3] is both a thrilling spy tale and a subversion of text adventure mechanics. For those who are never going to play this game, a minor spoiler. The setting is a fictional Cold War-style spy setting, your "adventure" is you being interviewed by your captor, recounting your story so far; for much of the game, whenever you make a false move -- the kind which would result in your death in a traditional adventure -- your captor will just simply tell you "...except that's not what actually happened, is it?" and rewind the story to the last checkpoint, where something has changed. Then there's Rematch [4]. It's essentially a one-move game. One move -- that is, one complex multi-clause sentence -- and you die, except if you figure it out. And the kinds of things you can do in that one move are very complex! --- [1] Photopia: http://adamcadre.ac/if/photopia.html http://adamcadre.ac/if/photopia.html [2] 9:05: http://adamcadre.ac/if/905.html http://adamcadre.ac/if/905.html [3] Spider and Web: https://eblong.com/zarf/zweb/tangle/ https://eblong.com/zarf/zweb/tangle/ [4] Rematch: https://ifdb.org/viewgame?id=22oqimzgf8snv002 https://ifdb.org/viewgame?id=22oqimzgf8snv002
jordanpg 4y ago
The IF community will absolutely go to the mat insisting that Twine, etc. is IF in the same sense as parser games. They are judged side by side in the biggest annual competition. I get that they are trying to be maximally inclusive, but frankly I have no idea what they are talking about. These things are plainly apples and oranges. And there is great value to be found in both. But saying these are directly comparable is roughly analogous to saying a point and click adventure game is comparable to a "quick time event" game. I think the IF community cedes too much ground with respect to parser games in the name of having a bigger tent.
- mwigdahl 4y ago
  This wasn't always the case -- there was a considerable amount of resistance to the idea that choice-based games were equivalent to parser IF in the community as recently as 10 years ago. There were a few related factors that led to the current state, where if anything parser IF is more on the margins than choice-based IF. The first is that choice-based IF is far, far easier to write, debug, and release than parser-based IF. The barrier to entry is _much_ lower. Because of this, the diversity of authors participating in the IF scene expanded quite a bit. Parser-based IF skewed really heavily toward the programmer demographic. Twine and other choice-based options brought in a lot of LGBTQ and minority authors who wanted to tell their stories but didn't have the programming background to do so with a parser-based engine. Twine and other choice-based engines were designed web-first. They incorporated graphics and other visual features enabled by the browser environment while parser-based engines were still effectively stuck in VT-100 emulation mode. Finally, choice-based IF is also often better at simulating interpersonal interaction and conversation than parser-based IF. Parser-based IF stagnated for quite a while. Graham Nelson's Inform 7 programming language was a work of staggering genius, but it was a closed-source one man show for a very long time and didn't update to keep pace with what the choice-based engines were doing. Inform 7 has just recently been open-sourced, with a rearchitected pipeline that should allow for some interesting integrations and enhancements. It will be interesting to see whether there's still sufficient interest around the tool such that the community brings it into the modern era. I certainly hope there is!
  - 4y ago
bttf 4y ago
There is a distinction between Twine games, or choice-based games, and parser games, which are typically called Interactive Fiction games. One provides a pre-set list of choices at branches of narrative, while the other provides a world that the user can explore and manipulate via a palette of text commands.
- jrochkind1 4y ago
  Wait, Twine is _not_ for making "text adventure" style games with a palette of text commands? Somehow I was getting the idea that it was, but when used for shorter stories authors just didn't want to call it "text adventure". but we're actually talking about a different feature set of the game software entirely?
  - jccalhoun 4y ago
    Twine does not lend itself to making Infocom style games easilly. It is more like Choose Your Own Adventure books in that at its simplest it is "do you want to go left or right?" style choices. However, you can use javascript to program more complicated styles of game play.
  - neversaydie 4y ago
    Yes - Twine is for what's called "CYOA" (after the old Choose Your Own Adventure book series) or "choice based" interactive fiction. That type of IF has its origin in gamebooks, and generally consists of sections of text that you move between by picking from a list of choices ("to open the door turn to section 223, to run away turn to section 543", that sort of thing). Digital tools can add more dynamic elements, but generally it's rooted in the experience of reading/playing a Fighting Fantasy or Choose Your Own Adventure type gamebook. The other main type of IF is the "parser" kind - that's the Infocom style where the UI is a bit like a command line, you type arbitrary commands, and get dynamic feedback. The main tool used nowadays for making that type of IF is Inform 7, though there are others.
- djur 4y ago
  The IF community has included choice-based games in "interactive fiction" for a long time now. They're eligible for IFComp and everything.

by pavlov 4y ago

kelseyfrog 4y ago

I've made several Twine stories, participated in IF jams, and see folks using IF/stories/&c fairly interchangeably. It could certainly be that Twine keeps a naming convention in order to be neutral, but as an IF writer and therefore more or less a community member, it's not something that I see people fighting over as opposed, say for instance, to the roguelike community.

the_af 4y ago
There was one pretty bizarre Twine story about genetically engineered ponies. It was subtle, you didn't realize how gross it was at first reading. It was brilliant. Do you remember the name?
- RodgerTheGreat 4y ago
  You're probably thinking of Horse Master: The Game of Horse Mastery.
  - the_af 4y ago
    Yes! That one. Thanks!

_ebt8 4y ago

My GR writes IF stories and I think even though there’s ressemblance with the text adventure games it seems that they manage to differentiate themselves by being closer to books and mainstream fiction. It seems like the average IF is read more like a book and less like a game.

growt 4y ago
Sorry to be off topic, but what’s a GR? Just a typo of GF? I searched but the only thing I found was Golden Retriever and I don’t think they are very good at writing fiction in general.
- _ebt8 4y ago
  Whoops yeah, it was indeed GF*

qbasic_forever 4y ago

> interactive fiction (IF) == text adventure games in the style of 1980s Infocom. Not necessarily, infocom style games are just a subgenre of modern interactive fiction nowadays. Infocom style games are enormous and full of obscure puzzles, mazes, etc. that require hours and hours of gameplay. IF has branched out a lot and most stories are written to be completed in less than an hour and typically have less infuriating puzzles or mazes, along with complete help and hint systems. There are tons of award winning IF stories that involve no real combat, puzzles, etc. and are just exploration of interesting environments or talking to characters. Check out some of the winners from the annual IF competition for a great sampling of modern IF: https://ifcomp.org/comp/2021 https://ifcomp.org/comp/2021 Emily Short in particular is someone who really pushes the boundaries of IF, her story Galatea from the early 2000s is a great example of how far beyond Infocom style games IF has gone: https://www.ifwiki.org/Emily_Short https://www.ifwiki.org/Emily_Short and https://ifdb.org/viewgame?id=urxrv27t7qtu52lb https://ifdb.org/viewgame?id=urxrv27t7qtu52lb

the_af 4y ago
Emily Short, Zarf, Adam Cadre. All masters breaking the boundaries of the IF genre. Adam Cadre's Photopia [1] made me choke some tears. His 9:05 [2] is darkly comical, and is fun to explore again once you know what it is about. Zarf's Spider and Web [3] is both a thrilling spy tale and a subversion of text adventure mechanics. For those who are never going to play this game, a minor spoiler. The setting is a fictional Cold War-style spy setting, your "adventure" is you being interviewed by your captor, recounting your story so far; for much of the game, whenever you make a false move -- the kind which would result in your death in a traditional adventure -- your captor will just simply tell you "...except that's not what actually happened, is it?" and rewind the story to the last checkpoint, where something has changed. Then there's Rematch [4]. It's essentially a one-move game. One move -- that is, one complex multi-clause sentence -- and you die, except if you figure it out. And the kinds of things you can do in that one move are very complex! --- [1] Photopia: http://adamcadre.ac/if/photopia.html http://adamcadre.ac/if/photopia.html [2] 9:05: http://adamcadre.ac/if/905.html http://adamcadre.ac/if/905.html [3] Spider and Web: https://eblong.com/zarf/zweb/tangle/ https://eblong.com/zarf/zweb/tangle/ [4] Rematch: https://ifdb.org/viewgame?id=22oqimzgf8snv002 https://ifdb.org/viewgame?id=22oqimzgf8snv002

jordanpg 4y ago

The IF community will absolutely go to the mat insisting that Twine, etc. is IF in the same sense as parser games. They are judged side by side in the biggest annual competition. I get that they are trying to be maximally inclusive, but frankly I have no idea what they are talking about. These things are plainly apples and oranges. And there is great value to be found in both. But saying these are directly comparable is roughly analogous to saying a point and click adventure game is comparable to a "quick time event" game. I think the IF community cedes too much ground with respect to parser games in the name of having a bigger tent.

mwigdahl 4y ago
This wasn't always the case -- there was a considerable amount of resistance to the idea that choice-based games were equivalent to parser IF in the community as recently as 10 years ago. There were a few related factors that led to the current state, where if anything parser IF is more on the margins than choice-based IF. The first is that choice-based IF is far, far easier to write, debug, and release than parser-based IF. The barrier to entry is _much_ lower. Because of this, the diversity of authors participating in the IF scene expanded quite a bit. Parser-based IF skewed really heavily toward the programmer demographic. Twine and other choice-based options brought in a lot of LGBTQ and minority authors who wanted to tell their stories but didn't have the programming background to do so with a parser-based engine. Twine and other choice-based engines were designed web-first. They incorporated graphics and other visual features enabled by the browser environment while parser-based engines were still effectively stuck in VT-100 emulation mode. Finally, choice-based IF is also often better at simulating interpersonal interaction and conversation than parser-based IF. Parser-based IF stagnated for quite a while. Graham Nelson's Inform 7 programming language was a work of staggering genius, but it was a closed-source one man show for a very long time and didn't update to keep pace with what the choice-based engines were doing. Inform 7 has just recently been open-sourced, with a rearchitected pipeline that should allow for some interesting integrations and enhancements. It will be interesting to see whether there's still sufficient interest around the tool such that the community brings it into the modern era. I certainly hope there is!
- 4y ago

bttf 4y ago

There is a distinction between Twine games, or choice-based games, and parser games, which are typically called Interactive Fiction games. One provides a pre-set list of choices at branches of narrative, while the other provides a world that the user can explore and manipulate via a palette of text commands.

jrochkind1 4y ago
Wait, Twine is _not_ for making "text adventure" style games with a palette of text commands? Somehow I was getting the idea that it was, but when used for shorter stories authors just didn't want to call it "text adventure". but we're actually talking about a different feature set of the game software entirely?
- jccalhoun 4y ago
  Twine does not lend itself to making Infocom style games easilly. It is more like Choose Your Own Adventure books in that at its simplest it is "do you want to go left or right?" style choices. However, you can use javascript to program more complicated styles of game play.
- neversaydie 4y ago
  Yes - Twine is for what's called "CYOA" (after the old Choose Your Own Adventure book series) or "choice based" interactive fiction. That type of IF has its origin in gamebooks, and generally consists of sections of text that you move between by picking from a list of choices ("to open the door turn to section 223, to run away turn to section 543", that sort of thing). Digital tools can add more dynamic elements, but generally it's rooted in the experience of reading/playing a Fighting Fantasy or Choose Your Own Adventure type gamebook. The other main type of IF is the "parser" kind - that's the Infocom style where the UI is a bit like a command line, you type arbitrary commands, and get dynamic feedback. The main tool used nowadays for making that type of IF is Inform 7, though there are others.
djur 4y ago
The IF community has included choice-based games in "interactive fiction" for a long time now. They're eligible for IFComp and everything.