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You kinda lose me by repeatedly mixing up "asking questions" with bad management. I now believe the opposite. In my 3rd year of computer science degree, I took

You kinda lose me by repeatedly mixing up "asking questions" with bad management. I now believe the opposite. In my 3rd year of computer science degree, I took a management course on a lark. Scariest sentence I heard at the time was "a good manager need not be subject matter expert". And first decade of my career I believed that was a horrible idea. Now I don't. A team lead needs to be domain expert. I want a manager to be good at management - risk analysis, planning, stakeholder communication, etc - and willing to ask questions, seek input and learn. I don't need my manager to know how to create new indexes in db2 or troubleshoot Weblogic or set up integration broker. I need them to ask questions, interact with and listen to the team, keep us informed, fix as much politics crap as possible, ensure we are well integrated with other teams and projects, etc. (note that this is orthogonal from office vs wfh. You can ask questions and engage team remotely easily enough if you choose to, and you can do it tactfully and productively if you try).

yunohn 4y ago
> I want a manager to be good at management - risk analysis, planning, stakeholder communication, etc - and willing to ask questions, seek input and learn. Yeah… OP wasn’t talking about questions like those. The managers being discussed are ones that rely on those questions, and don’t build up knowledge, to do /all/ of their job. Also, I’ve yet to meet a manager who was actually good at “risk analysis & planning”. I guess most of them are good at communicating, that’s usually how they got the job in the first place.
mox1 4y ago
Just so you know, a non-zero portion of F500 doesn't really believe in or have a "Team Lead" role. Its Managers and Individual Contributors, no overlap. I would argue that (in general) a first line manager should be a Team Lead. Otherwise you now have 2 managers (a work product manager and a HR / performance manager). My (F500 size, but private, Fintech / banking / insurance company) company has 2 "tracks". Individual Contributor (labeled P1-5) and Manager (labeled M1-5). HR does not have any room or space for a "Senior Engineer who is also a Manager." I am currently a P5, If I wanted to move over to management, I would have to take a large pay cut (down to a M2, maybe M3). To keep an equivalent pay and move into a M4 role, I would have to be a manager of managers (aka director or 2nd VP I suppose). This company desperately needs a Tech Lead type role, but there is no space within their HR playbook. I suspect at a lot of older companies (outside of FAANG), you will find a similar breakdown or "wall" between ICs and Managers.
- NikolaNovak 4y ago
  Thanks; and both agree, and understand. Many big companies also have an interesting differentiation between what I'll call a "project manager" (who has authority over potentially transient project team members), and "career manager", who permanently supports team members (and then possibly also a "functional manager"). I also cknowledge that "team lead vs manager" is a distinction I use that does not seem to have a formal definition in e.g. PMBook, but I find most people intuitively grok.
donatj 4y ago
The best managers I've had in my near twenty years of software development have been so-so developers but amazing at keeping other people off our backs, saying no, and limiting scope.
marcosdumay 4y ago
Well, "expert" in "a good manager need not be subject matter expert" carries way too much weight. A good manager doesn't need to be an expert on the matter, but he needs to understand it. Otherwise, he can not do risk analysis, planning, or stakeholder communication.
adamsmith143 4y ago
This does make sense and I've seen the opposite happen all the time. The most competent engineers ended up getting promoted into Management and flounder.

yunohn 4y ago

> I want a manager to be good at management - risk analysis, planning, stakeholder communication, etc - and willing to ask questions, seek input and learn. Yeah… OP wasn’t talking about questions like those. The managers being discussed are ones that rely on those questions, and don’t build up knowledge, to do /all/ of their job. Also, I’ve yet to meet a manager who was actually good at “risk analysis & planning”. I guess most of them are good at communicating, that’s usually how they got the job in the first place.

mox1 4y ago

Just so you know, a non-zero portion of F500 doesn't really believe in or have a "Team Lead" role. Its Managers and Individual Contributors, no overlap. I would argue that (in general) a first line manager should be a Team Lead. Otherwise you now have 2 managers (a work product manager and a HR / performance manager). My (F500 size, but private, Fintech / banking / insurance company) company has 2 "tracks". Individual Contributor (labeled P1-5) and Manager (labeled M1-5). HR does not have any room or space for a "Senior Engineer who is also a Manager." I am currently a P5, If I wanted to move over to management, I would have to take a large pay cut (down to a M2, maybe M3). To keep an equivalent pay and move into a M4 role, I would have to be a manager of managers (aka director or 2nd VP I suppose). This company desperately needs a Tech Lead type role, but there is no space within their HR playbook. I suspect at a lot of older companies (outside of FAANG), you will find a similar breakdown or "wall" between ICs and Managers.

NikolaNovak 4y ago
Thanks; and both agree, and understand. Many big companies also have an interesting differentiation between what I'll call a "project manager" (who has authority over potentially transient project team members), and "career manager", who permanently supports team members (and then possibly also a "functional manager"). I also cknowledge that "team lead vs manager" is a distinction I use that does not seem to have a formal definition in e.g. PMBook, but I find most people intuitively grok.

donatj 4y ago

The best managers I've had in my near twenty years of software development have been so-so developers but amazing at keeping other people off our backs, saying no, and limiting scope.

marcosdumay 4y ago

Well, "expert" in "a good manager need not be subject matter expert" carries way too much weight. A good manager doesn't need to be an expert on the matter, but he needs to understand it. Otherwise, he can not do risk analysis, planning, or stakeholder communication.

adamsmith143 4y ago

This does make sense and I've seen the opposite happen all the time. The most competent engineers ended up getting promoted into Management and flounder.