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We have people working remotely and they are supposed to be available and online and I find that many are not available. We have even had emergencies where we

We have people working remotely and they are supposed to be available and online and I find that many are not available. We have even had emergencies where we reached out to people only to not get a response. There are people actually working from home and they are people "working" from home.

diffeomorphism 4y ago
Then you should be paying money for people to be "on call" not "available and online". An error in planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine.
- oldnetguy 4y ago
  If an emergency happens on a system you are responsible for in the middle of the work day then it is expected that you fix the system you are responsible for.
  - falcolas 4y ago
    It’s telling that you aren’t mentioning why they were unavailable? I’m certain you found out. Catch them on their lunch hour? While they were handling an emergency with family? Taking a mental health break from tech? Internet outage? Also, why is there only one employee able to fix the issue?
    - oldnetguy 4y ago
      The team is supposed to be available. All members of the team are supposed to be available during their work hours. We have determined the cause, it's called people were not doing their job.
      - falcolas 4y ago
        And when in the office, do you chain them to their desks? Never letting them take a bathroom break, never letting them handle family emergencies, never letting them take a lunch break, never letting them step outside to take a walk? I'm guessing that's not the case. So even in the office, the team's availability is not absolute. Which raises the question of why would someone expect otherwise when working from home.
        oldnetguy 4y ago
        I get what you are doing, but that's ok. I hope to be working with new people soon.
        falcolas 4y ago
        If your expectations remain the same - 100% availability no matter the reason during business hours - those new folks are likely going to disappoint you in the same way.
      - diffeomorphism 4y ago
        "available" : will read emails a few times per day and get back to you within x hours. "on call": will respond on very short notice. > it's called people were not doing their job. Yep, those people were you, specifically. You set wrong expectations and it bit you in the butt. And then instead of owning up to your mistake you blamed everyone but yourself.
        oldnetguy 4y ago
        I don't know what you do for a living but we do not have "on call" during work hours. Our team knows their expectations and it will be nice to meet new people as some are replaced. Just to let you know. I am not a manager, I am a worker just like them
SV_BubbleTime 4y ago
This has been my experience. I only have a small team under me and they have good work ethic, but I reach out to other staff and it’s a ghost town. It’s a Wednesday at 1100, and I can’t get anyone from accounting, finance, HR, or marketing… The truth is there was some truth to it when Musk very publicly said “you can pretend to work somewhere else”. That’s true on some cases, and it makes me more certain that when I see WFH brought up, one side of that “debate” refuses to ever admit it.
- jeromegv 4y ago
  The issue is not WFH. The issue is that you work with incompetant people. Even if those people were sitting in a chair at the office, they are likely procrastinating all day, talking to everyone, not doing anything done. Sure they are harder to reach with WFH, but the reality is that they were very bad employees in the first place. If someone can't be reached on a day they are supposed to be working, well their manager should be addressing the issue and ask them what the fuck they were doing at that time. WFH or not, those are bad employees.
  - Gigachad 4y ago
    What if the reality is that a large chunk of the population is just incompetent/lazy and performs better in an office environment where they are being watched?
    - falcolas 4y ago
      Then perhaps the issue is the work and the pay, not the worker. I’ve found unmotivated people can appear incompetent or lazy, but it’s just a motivation issue that disappears once motivation returns.
      - Gigachad 4y ago
        And what if it’s found that working in the office solves the problem cheaper than paying more?
vouaobrasil 4y ago
Exactly the same as in the office....the problem here is not being away from the office. It's management treating people like children and not setting up a proper reward system to show workers that what they produce has value.
- Ma8ee 4y ago
  Uhm? I thought my salary was my reward for doing my job. Am I supposed to expect something else than that? And in my world, it seems rather childish to only do what you should if you are promised a treat afterwards. (And I certainly expect more of my own children.)
  - vouaobrasil 4y ago
    It's obviously part of it. But I just meant that a lot of people like to see the results and value they produce. Game developers like to see people enjoying their game, and people like to see their product making people happy. I don't mean getting candies. Personally I have a job writing, and honestly my biggest motivations aside from the money is seeing people comment and learn from what I write. If there was a job which payed 80K per year but all it involved was putting together boxes and then taking them apart for no reason at all all day, I bet very few people would actually stay there for very long.
  - twh270 4y ago
    Different people have different reward preferences. Salary is compensation, yes, but some people are motivated by other things -- public or private recognition, title bump, awards, extra benefits, etc.
  - danaris 4y ago
    Our salary is what we require to actually survive in this world. Most people have psychological needs related to their work. (Maybe you're not one of them. I'm not trying to assume here.) It's not "childish" to feel a need for validation, for respect, for actually feeling like the work you do has value and is valued, or like you are valued as a person. It's human. 100% normal and expected.
dleslie 4y ago
If they're clocking hours or missing scheduled meetings that's a problem, if they're paid salary and aren't on call or needed in a meeting then their lack of availability is fair.
- Closi 4y ago
  Not really - it's job dependent, but if someone on our team needs support or help during working hours I expect to be able to contact another team member to get them to help.
  - dleslie 4y ago
    That's what emails and slack are for. If they need urgent contact then they should be paid to be on call or paid hourly with overtime benefits.
    - tpmoney 4y ago
      They’re paid to be “at work” already. Why should they be paid extra to respond to urgent situations during normal working hours?
      - dleslie 4y ago
        That depends on whether or not their contract defines core hours. Frankly, if you're being made to work like an hourly compensated employee, then you should demand to enjoy the benefits that entails, like OT, or switch to an employer who isn't so willing to abuse you.
        tpmoney 4y ago
        I don’t think I’ve ever worked a job that didn’t define core business hours. If you would normally be expected to be in the office from 9-5, why would that core hours expectation no longer apply if you wfh?
prmoustache 4y ago
I've seen the same with people at the office disappearing for a long time. I even found out once we had a coworker taking naps in the toilets seat and one that got fired after years of setting up fake meetings while he was playing golf or running errands. You can't be on everyone's back all the time anyway and this do not really happen in a well managed company where everyone has a real purpose, goals and has to report on the job done.
- mring33621 4y ago
  Burnout happens.
heliodor 4y ago
Just like at the office, you have to make sure people are actually working. Either way, it's on you.
yrgulation 4y ago
There needs to be a minimum set of expectations set. Working from home doesnt mean one shouldn't be available. I think the issue at hand is that either those people dont understand that you must be available just like in an office - or better - or they do but are taking the piss. I’d make clear what is expected of them and if they dont meet the requirements well… thats just poor performance on their part and you can find better people. I am all pro wfh and better rights but it goes both ways. Companies are not charities.
celdon25 4y ago
If your company doesn’t fix that, the market probably will. I’ve been through that drill.

diffeomorphism 4y ago

Then you should be paying money for people to be "on call" not "available and online". An error in planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine.

oldnetguy 4y ago
If an emergency happens on a system you are responsible for in the middle of the work day then it is expected that you fix the system you are responsible for.
- falcolas 4y ago
  It’s telling that you aren’t mentioning why they were unavailable? I’m certain you found out. Catch them on their lunch hour? While they were handling an emergency with family? Taking a mental health break from tech? Internet outage? Also, why is there only one employee able to fix the issue?
  - oldnetguy 4y ago
    The team is supposed to be available. All members of the team are supposed to be available during their work hours. We have determined the cause, it's called people were not doing their job.
    - falcolas 4y ago
      And when in the office, do you chain them to their desks? Never letting them take a bathroom break, never letting them handle family emergencies, never letting them take a lunch break, never letting them step outside to take a walk? I'm guessing that's not the case. So even in the office, the team's availability is not absolute. Which raises the question of why would someone expect otherwise when working from home.
      - oldnetguy 4y ago
        I get what you are doing, but that's ok. I hope to be working with new people soon.
        falcolas 4y ago
        If your expectations remain the same - 100% availability no matter the reason during business hours - those new folks are likely going to disappoint you in the same way.
    - diffeomorphism 4y ago
      "available" : will read emails a few times per day and get back to you within x hours. "on call": will respond on very short notice. > it's called people were not doing their job. Yep, those people were you, specifically. You set wrong expectations and it bit you in the butt. And then instead of owning up to your mistake you blamed everyone but yourself.
      - oldnetguy 4y ago
        I don't know what you do for a living but we do not have "on call" during work hours. Our team knows their expectations and it will be nice to meet new people as some are replaced. Just to let you know. I am not a manager, I am a worker just like them

SV_BubbleTime 4y ago

This has been my experience. I only have a small team under me and they have good work ethic, but I reach out to other staff and it’s a ghost town. It’s a Wednesday at 1100, and I can’t get anyone from accounting, finance, HR, or marketing… The truth is there was some truth to it when Musk very publicly said “you can pretend to work somewhere else”. That’s true on some cases, and it makes me more certain that when I see WFH brought up, one side of that “debate” refuses to ever admit it.

jeromegv 4y ago
The issue is not WFH. The issue is that you work with incompetant people. Even if those people were sitting in a chair at the office, they are likely procrastinating all day, talking to everyone, not doing anything done. Sure they are harder to reach with WFH, but the reality is that they were very bad employees in the first place. If someone can't be reached on a day they are supposed to be working, well their manager should be addressing the issue and ask them what the fuck they were doing at that time. WFH or not, those are bad employees.
- Gigachad 4y ago
  What if the reality is that a large chunk of the population is just incompetent/lazy and performs better in an office environment where they are being watched?
  - falcolas 4y ago
    Then perhaps the issue is the work and the pay, not the worker. I’ve found unmotivated people can appear incompetent or lazy, but it’s just a motivation issue that disappears once motivation returns.
    - Gigachad 4y ago
      And what if it’s found that working in the office solves the problem cheaper than paying more?

vouaobrasil 4y ago

Exactly the same as in the office....the problem here is not being away from the office. It's management treating people like children and not setting up a proper reward system to show workers that what they produce has value.

Ma8ee 4y ago
Uhm? I thought my salary was my reward for doing my job. Am I supposed to expect something else than that? And in my world, it seems rather childish to only do what you should if you are promised a treat afterwards. (And I certainly expect more of my own children.)
- vouaobrasil 4y ago
  It's obviously part of it. But I just meant that a lot of people like to see the results and value they produce. Game developers like to see people enjoying their game, and people like to see their product making people happy. I don't mean getting candies. Personally I have a job writing, and honestly my biggest motivations aside from the money is seeing people comment and learn from what I write. If there was a job which payed 80K per year but all it involved was putting together boxes and then taking them apart for no reason at all all day, I bet very few people would actually stay there for very long.
- twh270 4y ago
  Different people have different reward preferences. Salary is compensation, yes, but some people are motivated by other things -- public or private recognition, title bump, awards, extra benefits, etc.
- danaris 4y ago
  Our salary is what we require to actually survive in this world. Most people have psychological needs related to their work. (Maybe you're not one of them. I'm not trying to assume here.) It's not "childish" to feel a need for validation, for respect, for actually feeling like the work you do has value and is valued, or like you are valued as a person. It's human. 100% normal and expected.

dleslie 4y ago

If they're clocking hours or missing scheduled meetings that's a problem, if they're paid salary and aren't on call or needed in a meeting then their lack of availability is fair.

Closi 4y ago
Not really - it's job dependent, but if someone on our team needs support or help during working hours I expect to be able to contact another team member to get them to help.
- dleslie 4y ago
  That's what emails and slack are for. If they need urgent contact then they should be paid to be on call or paid hourly with overtime benefits.
  - tpmoney 4y ago
    They’re paid to be “at work” already. Why should they be paid extra to respond to urgent situations during normal working hours?
    - dleslie 4y ago
      That depends on whether or not their contract defines core hours. Frankly, if you're being made to work like an hourly compensated employee, then you should demand to enjoy the benefits that entails, like OT, or switch to an employer who isn't so willing to abuse you.
      - tpmoney 4y ago
        I don’t think I’ve ever worked a job that didn’t define core business hours. If you would normally be expected to be in the office from 9-5, why would that core hours expectation no longer apply if you wfh?

prmoustache 4y ago

I've seen the same with people at the office disappearing for a long time. I even found out once we had a coworker taking naps in the toilets seat and one that got fired after years of setting up fake meetings while he was playing golf or running errands. You can't be on everyone's back all the time anyway and this do not really happen in a well managed company where everyone has a real purpose, goals and has to report on the job done.

mring33621 4y ago
Burnout happens.

heliodor 4y ago

Just like at the office, you have to make sure people are actually working. Either way, it's on you.

yrgulation 4y ago

There needs to be a minimum set of expectations set. Working from home doesnt mean one shouldn't be available. I think the issue at hand is that either those people dont understand that you must be available just like in an office - or better - or they do but are taking the piss. I’d make clear what is expected of them and if they dont meet the requirements well… thats just poor performance on their part and you can find better people. I am all pro wfh and better rights but it goes both ways. Companies are not charities.

celdon25 4y ago

If your company doesn’t fix that, the market probably will. I’ve been through that drill.