23 ms·

I think people are very slowly coming to the realization that all the free love stuff didn't really make their prospects of a good family better, and after all,

I think people are very slowly coming to the realization that all the free love stuff didn't really make their prospects of a good family better, and after all, for the most part that is our biological drive. Women are the gatekeepers to reproduction, it will be on them to change course. After all, if every man works out and makes great money, then they are all the same anyway.

archagon 4y ago
> After all, if every man works out and makes great money, then they are all the same anyway. Wat? I guess things like, I dunno, personality don’t matter for mate selection in your view…?
- poszlem 4y ago
  It's not "in OP's view". We know that _on average(!)_ they don't really matter that much. What matters _on average(!)_ is power, position, and success. Even in this thread someone already posted how differently women and men rate each other.
- isthisthingon99 4y ago
  The context is dating apps. I personally pick up women at dog parks :-)
Zigurd 4y ago
Women can tell you think this way about women.
- dijit 4y ago
  You can read the parent comment more charitably. > free love stuff didn't really make their prospects of a good family better Both men and women are propagating this culture of free-love, but it's potentially unfulfilling and leaves people believing their prospects are better than they really are. A woman will sleep with a handsome chiseled burger flipper who doesn't want kids or responsibility; but will that same woman want to marry them? > it will be on [Women] to change course. The parent states that the power is mostly on the side of Women here, the parent is just saying that change will not come from Men. Because after all; if all Men did what is within their power: then not very much would actually change; Women drive what is acceptable.
  - Zigurd 4y ago
    You have put your finger right on the thing men get wrong: Because after all; if all men did what is within their power: then not very much would actually change.
    - dijit 4y ago
      I don't think I understand what you're saying, can you explain?
    - isthisthingon99 4y ago
      What can men do differently to make the system work better so that online dating wasn't a disaster for most men?
      - Zigurd 4y ago
        Stop thinking there is a set of KPIs they can attain to get women to think they are worth spending time with. Think different: Stop listening to Joe Rogan, Jordan Peterson, etc. They told you which KPIs will get you women. They won't. Stop thinking you can convince women, or anyone who isn't a libertarian that libertarianism isn't a naive infantile philosophy. There is way too much to list. Just stop all of it. Everything that goes with those surface symptoms is poison. Women can smell the faintest whiff of it. It makes you ugly clear through to the bone, no matter how buff you are. Being a gym rat probably makes it worse.
        dijit 4y ago
        Now I understand what you were referring to. I should attempt to convince you that negative messages ("STOP X") are not as effective for changing behaviour than actual helpful advice; for instance in personal training you are educated to always refer to the positive. IE; instead of saying "stop raising your heels" you would say, "do you see your feet move? We should try to keep them flat"- a subtle but important difference. W.R.T. comments like yours, I would advise you to instead focusing on the "don't improve your appearance, it is superficial" to instead focus on other things that men can do to meaningfully improve themselves. The majority of Feminists and the majority of Misogynists alike, agree (unfortunately) that some features of men are desirable and those typically correspond to conventional attractiveness and wealth. > Stop listening to Joe Rogan, Jordan Peterson, etc. They told you which KPIs will get you women. They won't. It's not really Joe Rogan or Jordan Peterson saying that though, it's society. IIRC Jordan Petersons whole schtick was suggesting that self-improvement is necessary and that you should start small (like cleaning your room); then he goes off the rails talking about equality and equity going too far or something- but the core of the beginning is good. I haven't ever watched Joe Rogan; Andrew Tate is as much as Misandrist as a Misogynist[0] If you want to convince me otherwise I would advise (again) to inform us of what Men should actually work on to improve themselves in the eyes of Women. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHD8Jun3eUc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHD8Jun3eUc
- isthisthingon99 4y ago
  Personally, I think it's within men's power to be attractive to most women. I know because I had that experience between the age of 30-40. But what is attractive is very difficult to achieve for most men, requires a lot of things to go right and a single misstep based on ignorance can set you back enough to be unrecoverable. Not to mention that women are constantly surrounded by men of high status (at work, social media, etc). These are all new problems.
erokar 4y ago
> I think people are very slowly coming to the realization that all the free love stuff didn't really make their prospects of a good family better, and after all, for the most part that is our biological drive. There's no evidence of any biological drive for family life or having children. (There's a cultural norm for it, for sure.) There's a biological drive for sex, and that's all evolution needs to keep it going.
- coffeeblack 4y ago
  And yet, every single successful human society is organized in that way.

archagon 4y ago

> After all, if every man works out and makes great money, then they are all the same anyway. Wat? I guess things like, I dunno, personality don’t matter for mate selection in your view…?

poszlem 4y ago
It's not "in OP's view". We know that _on average(!)_ they don't really matter that much. What matters _on average(!)_ is power, position, and success. Even in this thread someone already posted how differently women and men rate each other.
isthisthingon99 4y ago
The context is dating apps. I personally pick up women at dog parks :-)

Zigurd 4y ago

Women can tell you think this way about women.

dijit 4y ago
You can read the parent comment more charitably. > free love stuff didn't really make their prospects of a good family better Both men and women are propagating this culture of free-love, but it's potentially unfulfilling and leaves people believing their prospects are better than they really are. A woman will sleep with a handsome chiseled burger flipper who doesn't want kids or responsibility; but will that same woman want to marry them? > it will be on [Women] to change course. The parent states that the power is mostly on the side of Women here, the parent is just saying that change will not come from Men. Because after all; if all Men did what is within their power: then not very much would actually change; Women drive what is acceptable.
- Zigurd 4y ago
  You have put your finger right on the thing men get wrong: Because after all; if all men did what is within their power: then not very much would actually change.
  - dijit 4y ago
    I don't think I understand what you're saying, can you explain?
  - isthisthingon99 4y ago
    What can men do differently to make the system work better so that online dating wasn't a disaster for most men?
    - Zigurd 4y ago
      Stop thinking there is a set of KPIs they can attain to get women to think they are worth spending time with. Think different: Stop listening to Joe Rogan, Jordan Peterson, etc. They told you which KPIs will get you women. They won't. Stop thinking you can convince women, or anyone who isn't a libertarian that libertarianism isn't a naive infantile philosophy. There is way too much to list. Just stop all of it. Everything that goes with those surface symptoms is poison. Women can smell the faintest whiff of it. It makes you ugly clear through to the bone, no matter how buff you are. Being a gym rat probably makes it worse.
      - dijit 4y ago
        Now I understand what you were referring to. I should attempt to convince you that negative messages ("STOP X") are not as effective for changing behaviour than actual helpful advice; for instance in personal training you are educated to always refer to the positive. IE; instead of saying "stop raising your heels" you would say, "do you see your feet move? We should try to keep them flat"- a subtle but important difference. W.R.T. comments like yours, I would advise you to instead focusing on the "don't improve your appearance, it is superficial" to instead focus on other things that men can do to meaningfully improve themselves. The majority of Feminists and the majority of Misogynists alike, agree (unfortunately) that some features of men are desirable and those typically correspond to conventional attractiveness and wealth. > Stop listening to Joe Rogan, Jordan Peterson, etc. They told you which KPIs will get you women. They won't. It's not really Joe Rogan or Jordan Peterson saying that though, it's society. IIRC Jordan Petersons whole schtick was suggesting that self-improvement is necessary and that you should start small (like cleaning your room); then he goes off the rails talking about equality and equity going too far or something- but the core of the beginning is good. I haven't ever watched Joe Rogan; Andrew Tate is as much as Misandrist as a Misogynist[0] If you want to convince me otherwise I would advise (again) to inform us of what Men should actually work on to improve themselves in the eyes of Women. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHD8Jun3eUc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHD8Jun3eUc
isthisthingon99 4y ago
Personally, I think it's within men's power to be attractive to most women. I know because I had that experience between the age of 30-40. But what is attractive is very difficult to achieve for most men, requires a lot of things to go right and a single misstep based on ignorance can set you back enough to be unrecoverable. Not to mention that women are constantly surrounded by men of high status (at work, social media, etc). These are all new problems.

erokar 4y ago

> I think people are very slowly coming to the realization that all the free love stuff didn't really make their prospects of a good family better, and after all, for the most part that is our biological drive. There's no evidence of any biological drive for family life or having children. (There's a cultural norm for it, for sure.) There's a biological drive for sex, and that's all evolution needs to keep it going.

coffeeblack 4y ago
And yet, every single successful human society is organized in that way.