5 ms·

How are you going to deal with base load? We can save money on nuclear but reducing the amount of bureaucracy and increasing the volume for economies of scale.

by Msw242 4y ago

ZeroGravitas 4y ago
In Finland, Hydro combined with wind should take care of baseload. They've also been importing cheap electricity to avoid burning expensive fossil fuels for about a decade, so they probably want to continue with that.
- gojomo 4y ago
  Where will they "import cheap electricity" from if none is being exported?
  - oldgradstudent 4y ago
    Supposedly from northern Sweden, according to a Swedish friend. Take this with a grain of salt. They have a lot of power generation in the north, but not enough transmission capacity to transfer it to the population centers in the south, so they have to sell it cheaply to their neighbors, and buy expensive electricity from their neighbors in the south. This all worked fine when they could buy cheap electricity from their southern neighbors. But now they have a problem. A few weeks ago there was 10X or more electricity price difference between north and south Sweden. Take a look at: https://www.svk.se/en/national-grid/the-control-room/ https://www.svk.se/en/national-grid/the-control-room/ Pick, for example, August 26, 2022, at 11:04. Prices up north are 14 euro per MWh, and 750 euro per MWh in the south.
    - gojomo 4y ago
      Very interesting! Do you know if Sweden's northern generation surplus via something robust against gas-shortages, like say local hydropower?
      - Gwypaas 4y ago
        Loads of hydro [1], the energy mix in Sweden is usually 45-50% hydro depending on the year. Sweden currently has extremely chaotic electricity prices. Whenever the export capacity is maxed out the prices drops to €10-30/MWh and then instantly recovers to the gas based prices of Europe when it's not. With the recent chaos at the French nuclear plants Sweden became the largest exporter of electricity in the EU. [2] [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_hydroelectric_power_stations_in_Sweden https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_hydroelectric_power_st... [2]: https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/sweden-tops-france-europes-largest-net-power-exporter-2022-08-10/ https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/sweden-tops-france-e...
- doikor 4y ago
  > In Finland, Hydro combined with wind should take care of baseload. Nuclear and hydro are the baseload generation in Finland at the moment and will be far into the future. Hydro is also used to handle peaks. Imports are mostly hydro too.
rcxdude 4y ago
you deal with baseload with renewables. It just doesn't make sense to seperate 'baseload' from 'peak' with renewables (in fact this is one reason why nuclear and renewables don't complement each other, in fact renewables will tend to destroy nuclear economically without a bunch of subsidies in place), you just step back and think about how you're going to match supply and demand when both fluctuate over time. (And the answer is a combination of over-building renewable capacity and storage. Funnily enough if you ask how you'd supply a grid with nuclear power you get the same answer, just with longer lead times and a higher price tag).
- ftth_finland 4y ago
  Unless you mean hydro when you say renewables, you aren’t going to deal with baseload in the winter with renewables. Not that hydro is enough for baseload in itself.
Gwypaas 4y ago
Well, if it's a wartime economy measure why care? As long as the average is good enough and you keep the most important consumers running. If we're talking peace time, then there's loads of strategies. For Finland, Sweden and Norway there's immense possibility of hydro power to simply switch it to be used in a more dispatchable manner than baselod. For less hydro equipped countries see this research. > *B. Dealing With Variability and Stability* > Much of the resistance towards 100% Renewable Energy (RE) systems in the literature seems to come from the a-priori assumption that an energy system based on solar and wind is impossible since these energy sources are variable. Critics of 100% RE systems like to contrast solar and wind with ’firm’ energy sources like nuclear and fossil fuels (often combined with CCS) that bring their own storage. This is the key point made in some already mentioned reactions, such as those by Clack et al. [225], Trainer [226], Heard et al. [227] Jenkins et al. [228], and Caldeira et al. [275], [276]. > However, while it is true that keeping a system with variable sources stable is more complex, a range of strategies can be employed that are often ignored or underutilized in critical studies: oversizing solar and wind capacities; strengthening interconnections [68], [82], [132], [143], [277], [278]; demand response [279], [172], e.g. smart electric vehicles charging using delayed charging or delivering energy back to the electricity grid via vehicle-to-grid [181], [280]–[282]; storage (battery, compressed air, pumped hydro)[40]–[43], [46], [83], [140], [142], such as stationary batteries; sector coupling [16], [39], [90]–[92], [97], [132], [216], e.g. optimizing the interaction between electricity, heat, transport, and industry; power-to-X [39], [106], [134], [176], e.g. producing hydrogen at moments when there is abundant energy; et cetera. Using all these strategies effectively to mitigate variability is where much of the cutting-edge development of 100% RE scenarios takes place. > With every iteration in the research and with every technological breakthrough in these areas, 100% RE systems become increasingly viable. Even former critics must admit that adding e-fuels through PtX makes 100% RE possible at costs similar to fossil fuels. These critics are still questioning whether 100% RE is the cheapest solution but no longer claim it would be unfeasible or prohibitively expensive. Variability, especially short term, has many mitigation options, and energy system studies are increasingly capturing these in their 100% RE scenarios. https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/9837910 https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/9837910
- ohgodplsno 4y ago
jakewins 4y ago
"Base load" is word invented by coal power operators to argue for their extended existence, it is not a real thing. See Table 1 in this review paper from June for a summary of grid simulations from 10 separate models running 100% renewables at various time step resolutions: https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp.jsp?tp=&arnumber=9837910 https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp.jsp?tp=&arnumber=983...
- ZeroGravitas 4y ago
  More precisely, it was the coal and nuclear equivalent of the "duck curve". It was costly/inefficient for these techs to be flexible, so they seperated the flexible load out into gas and hydro to work around the limitations of the inflexible tech. Now its a rallying cry for some reason.
- ohgodplsno 4y ago
  Watch out, ideology is blinding you. Base load is very much a real concept: how much you need to have available at all times for your society to function. Your industry to run, your critical services, etc. You can make multiple layers (just running the government, industries, having heating available at all times, etc), and they vary over the year, but base load is absolutely a real thing. Additionally, I would recommend you read the remarks of Table 1, where half of them either make a gigantic portion of electricity needs disappear (not counting livestock needs lol), or assume that 10000TWh (or much more) will be covered by fossil fuels or nuclear. Hm, that sounds like a lot like a base load. It does not either cover how much you need to build (current best case scenarios are that you need to build 2.5x worth your needed consumption for it to be available at all times. Hope you're ready to cover Texas in solar panels you need to replace every ten years), or assume that you can just... transfer electricity through ? Yeah, sure, if we had a worldwide grid that just delivers energy where it needs to be without loss, but we don't.
  - Gwypaas 4y ago
    Base load exists on the demand side, it does not exist on the producer side. Base load on the producer side is simply a made up term because the most inflexible power plants of the 1970's were also the cheapest, and thus matched it.
markvdb 4y ago
The general strategy that will get you quite far: - improve interconnects - overdimension production - CHP [0] with biomass fuel - hydro storage - increase demand flexibility - generate carbohydrates for seasonal storage - lower consumption Technological improvements and breakthroughs are nice extras. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cogeneration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cogeneration
AdamN 4y ago
If the problem with nuclear was just bureaucracy, China would be building 100 of them right now. These are complicated machines and even the second most powerful country in the world is only building 17 currently.
- Msw242 4y ago
  >China is planning at least 150 new reactors in the next 15 years, more than the rest of the world has built in the past 35. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2021-11-02/china-climate-goals-hinge-on-440-billion-nuclear-power-plan-to-rival-u-s https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2021-11-02/china-cli...

How are you going to deal with base load? We can save money on nuclear but reducing the amount of bureaucracy and increasing the volume for economies of scale.

by Msw242 4y ago

How are you going to deal with base load? We can save money on nuclear but reducing the amount of bureaucracy and increasing the volume for economies of scale.

ZeroGravitas 4y ago

In Finland, Hydro combined with wind should take care of baseload. They've also been importing cheap electricity to avoid burning expensive fossil fuels for about a decade, so they probably want to continue with that.

gojomo 4y ago
Where will they "import cheap electricity" from if none is being exported?
- oldgradstudent 4y ago
  Supposedly from northern Sweden, according to a Swedish friend. Take this with a grain of salt. They have a lot of power generation in the north, but not enough transmission capacity to transfer it to the population centers in the south, so they have to sell it cheaply to their neighbors, and buy expensive electricity from their neighbors in the south. This all worked fine when they could buy cheap electricity from their southern neighbors. But now they have a problem. A few weeks ago there was 10X or more electricity price difference between north and south Sweden. Take a look at: https://www.svk.se/en/national-grid/the-control-room/ https://www.svk.se/en/national-grid/the-control-room/ Pick, for example, August 26, 2022, at 11:04. Prices up north are 14 euro per MWh, and 750 euro per MWh in the south.
  - gojomo 4y ago
    Very interesting! Do you know if Sweden's northern generation surplus via something robust against gas-shortages, like say local hydropower?
    - Gwypaas 4y ago
      Loads of hydro [1], the energy mix in Sweden is usually 45-50% hydro depending on the year. Sweden currently has extremely chaotic electricity prices. Whenever the export capacity is maxed out the prices drops to €10-30/MWh and then instantly recovers to the gas based prices of Europe when it's not. With the recent chaos at the French nuclear plants Sweden became the largest exporter of electricity in the EU. [2] [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_hydroelectric_power_stations_in_Sweden https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_hydroelectric_power_st... [2]: https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/sweden-tops-france-europes-largest-net-power-exporter-2022-08-10/ https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/sweden-tops-france-e...
doikor 4y ago
> In Finland, Hydro combined with wind should take care of baseload. Nuclear and hydro are the baseload generation in Finland at the moment and will be far into the future. Hydro is also used to handle peaks. Imports are mostly hydro too.

rcxdude 4y ago

you deal with baseload with renewables. It just doesn't make sense to seperate 'baseload' from 'peak' with renewables (in fact this is one reason why nuclear and renewables don't complement each other, in fact renewables will tend to destroy nuclear economically without a bunch of subsidies in place), you just step back and think about how you're going to match supply and demand when both fluctuate over time. (And the answer is a combination of over-building renewable capacity and storage. Funnily enough if you ask how you'd supply a grid with nuclear power you get the same answer, just with longer lead times and a higher price tag).

ftth_finland 4y ago
Unless you mean hydro when you say renewables, you aren’t going to deal with baseload in the winter with renewables. Not that hydro is enough for baseload in itself.

Gwypaas 4y ago

Well, if it's a wartime economy measure why care? As long as the average is good enough and you keep the most important consumers running. If we're talking peace time, then there's loads of strategies. For Finland, Sweden and Norway there's immense possibility of hydro power to simply switch it to be used in a more dispatchable manner than baselod. For less hydro equipped countries see this research. > *B. Dealing With Variability and Stability* > Much of the resistance towards 100% Renewable Energy (RE) systems in the literature seems to come from the a-priori assumption that an energy system based on solar and wind is impossible since these energy sources are variable. Critics of 100% RE systems like to contrast solar and wind with ’firm’ energy sources like nuclear and fossil fuels (often combined with CCS) that bring their own storage. This is the key point made in some already mentioned reactions, such as those by Clack et al. [225], Trainer [226], Heard et al. [227] Jenkins et al. [228], and Caldeira et al. [275], [276]. > However, while it is true that keeping a system with variable sources stable is more complex, a range of strategies can be employed that are often ignored or underutilized in critical studies: oversizing solar and wind capacities; strengthening interconnections [68], [82], [132], [143], [277], [278]; demand response [279], [172], e.g. smart electric vehicles charging using delayed charging or delivering energy back to the electricity grid via vehicle-to-grid [181], [280]–[282]; storage (battery, compressed air, pumped hydro)[40]–[43], [46], [83], [140], [142], such as stationary batteries; sector coupling [16], [39], [90]–[92], [97], [132], [216], e.g. optimizing the interaction between electricity, heat, transport, and industry; power-to-X [39], [106], [134], [176], e.g. producing hydrogen at moments when there is abundant energy; et cetera. Using all these strategies effectively to mitigate variability is where much of the cutting-edge development of 100% RE scenarios takes place. > With every iteration in the research and with every technological breakthrough in these areas, 100% RE systems become increasingly viable. Even former critics must admit that adding e-fuels through PtX makes 100% RE possible at costs similar to fossil fuels. These critics are still questioning whether 100% RE is the cheapest solution but no longer claim it would be unfeasible or prohibitively expensive. Variability, especially short term, has many mitigation options, and energy system studies are increasingly capturing these in their 100% RE scenarios. https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/9837910 https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/9837910

ohgodplsno 4y ago

jakewins 4y ago

"Base load" is word invented by coal power operators to argue for their extended existence, it is not a real thing. See Table 1 in this review paper from June for a summary of grid simulations from 10 separate models running 100% renewables at various time step resolutions: https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp.jsp?tp=&arnumber=9837910 https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp.jsp?tp=&arnumber=983...

ZeroGravitas 4y ago
More precisely, it was the coal and nuclear equivalent of the "duck curve". It was costly/inefficient for these techs to be flexible, so they seperated the flexible load out into gas and hydro to work around the limitations of the inflexible tech. Now its a rallying cry for some reason.
ohgodplsno 4y ago
Watch out, ideology is blinding you. Base load is very much a real concept: how much you need to have available at all times for your society to function. Your industry to run, your critical services, etc. You can make multiple layers (just running the government, industries, having heating available at all times, etc), and they vary over the year, but base load is absolutely a real thing. Additionally, I would recommend you read the remarks of Table 1, where half of them either make a gigantic portion of electricity needs disappear (not counting livestock needs lol), or assume that 10000TWh (or much more) will be covered by fossil fuels or nuclear. Hm, that sounds like a lot like a base load. It does not either cover how much you need to build (current best case scenarios are that you need to build 2.5x worth your needed consumption for it to be available at all times. Hope you're ready to cover Texas in solar panels you need to replace every ten years), or assume that you can just... transfer electricity through ? Yeah, sure, if we had a worldwide grid that just delivers energy where it needs to be without loss, but we don't.
- Gwypaas 4y ago
  Base load exists on the demand side, it does not exist on the producer side. Base load on the producer side is simply a made up term because the most inflexible power plants of the 1970's were also the cheapest, and thus matched it.

markvdb 4y ago

The general strategy that will get you quite far: - improve interconnects - overdimension production - CHP [0] with biomass fuel - hydro storage - increase demand flexibility - generate carbohydrates for seasonal storage - lower consumption Technological improvements and breakthroughs are nice extras. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cogeneration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cogeneration

AdamN 4y ago

If the problem with nuclear was just bureaucracy, China would be building 100 of them right now. These are complicated machines and even the second most powerful country in the world is only building 17 currently.

Msw242 4y ago
>China is planning at least 150 new reactors in the next 15 years, more than the rest of the world has built in the past 35. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2021-11-02/china-climate-goals-hinge-on-440-billion-nuclear-power-plan-to-rival-u-s https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2021-11-02/china-cli...