21 ms·

Choosing happiness

thefourthchime 4y ago
The article talks about two types of happiness. “hedonic” and “euphoric”. I don’t think it matters personally. However, you reach a series of “happy” days that work for you is all that matters. I say, if you want to think of a value for your life. Add up the sum of how you liked your days. However you get there, It doesn’t matter.
- corytheboyd 4y ago
  Do things you like doing, and don't do things you don't like doing. Boom
  - arminiusreturns 4y ago
    Epicurianism badically, which I usually temper with a dash of stoicism; learn to suffer through the things you don't like when they can't be avoided.
  - kgabbott 4y ago
    But which “you” matters here? Is it the you of the current moment, next hour, tomorrow, next month, etc…? Any activity you do regularly and consistently will bring about different emotions and states of mind on different days. Some days you can’t wait to get started and some times you go weeks of having no motivation towards it. I’m on a journey right now of hiking 50 miles a week. On most days, being able to get in nature for an hour or more is such a serene and grounding experience that brings me a lot of joy. But there are weeks where I don’t want to get out there, and even when I get started I don’t want to be there. But looking back, I see those days as part of the whole experience. I have retroactive enjoyment and pride in having pushed myself (type 2 fun) and I know that the subsequent 50 mile weeks are easier and more enjoyable because I kept the consistency up. Yes, it is good to take breaks from things when you’re not enjoying them anymore. This allows you to reevaluate and get back your motivating “why”. But it can also be extremely hard to get back into a routine after a relatively short break. Anyone who has not exercised for a few weeks will know that feeling of weakness when they get started again.
    - moviewise 4y ago
      I'd argue that the problem when you don't feel motivated (provided it's not because of a lack of sleep, hydration, or nutrition that's making you feel tired) is that you are not learning something new. This is why it's important to vary the location, or time, or who you go hiking with etc. If you add some variety to your activity, you will feel more motivated because you'll get to learn/experience something new, which is intrinsically exciting and rewarding.
  - refurb 4y ago
    I don't like working, and I like smoking crack. You're saying that my path to happiness?
    - nobody9999 4y ago
      >I don't like working, and I like smoking crack. You're saying that my path to happiness? From the standpoint of immediacy, it absolutely can be. From a medium to long term standpoint, the path this presents may or may not be a happy one (I posit that happiness is a process and not a resting state), which is highly dependent upon your circumstances. If you're fabulously wealthy, smoking crack all day for the rest of your life might be a very happy path. If you're not, there are likely some bumps along that path which could negatively impact one's happiness. Your "argument" attempts to conflate the travails of a tiny minority (those whose lives are negatively impacted by substance use issues) of us as a major component of the process called "happiness." Which is unfortunate, as there's (as has been mentioned elsewhere here) that hedonistic activities (like smoking crack) are certainly on the same spectrum as eudaimonic activities (like working at a job you find fulfilling) and are, in their effects, quite similar. Yes, I do realize your "argument" is a straw man specifically designed with all sorts of baggage to placate folks into not looking too closely at that "argument." I'm sorry I'm unable to be placated thusly.
    - daniel-cussen 4y ago
      I meet many beggars and if they tell me hey I just need it for crack, I'm like, you're Jesus's favorite every one of you, I have very little, but in relative terms compared to them I'm still in practice rich. Like literally I feel embarrassed when I have to tell them I don't have something, I apologize in fact in these cases. I plan ahead for when I'm outside make sure I have loose change and not 10 peso Chilean pennies like actual 500 peso coins (50 cents), money for real. Let them be happy for a bit, hell. State of California did it for me (for ADD treatment, a stimulant), and I paid crazy extra taxes back despite having nothing, just so they can do it for another junkie again. I'm like, if it's your money you begged for it spend it on whatever you really want, whatever you really really want. There was a serious presidential candidate here saying, Jadué[1]. So what you do with the addicts is you dispense them a reasonable amount, of whatever. Anything. And really? They're not addicted by accident. There's a reason there wasn't a crack epidemic in the 60's, it wasn't because people couldn't figure out the trivial recipe with fucking baking soda and cocaine like in any kitchen? The CIA did not invent crack because nobody can invent crack because it's not patentable, it's obvious. In fact the crack epidemic is a response to the 60's, crack cures the system of the counter-culture. [1] I like his party I like that he's Marxist, I feel red too, and American Republican, just like the color red, let me declare it here. Color-based political affiliation in Chile and in America, just red in both. Republican red, Marxist red. That's legal, you can be a Republican and a card-carrying Communist if you're open about it. I'll see where I can get an actual card I can carry. I just like the color red. EDIT: this came out with a lot of explosion, good thing it's nested deep in the comments, let it be known I had to leave a lot out. That was some really unwise stuff to write...even drafting it, like any javascript keylogger...oh well I'll compile it, it'll be in a book perhaps. Well I guess anything that goes through a computer is public from day one. Anyway, a book about what's up, why you can't just reach out for happiness like you mock real people for doing. It's actually not that complicated. It's upcoming. Maybe. I actually am figuring out my business and my idealism simultaneously, and you can read about it all on http://www.fgemm.com http://www.fgemm.com .
  - brokenmachine 4y ago
    Boom, I'm homeless.
- ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
  I think “euphoric” is the same as “hedonic.” He was discussing “eudaimonic” happiness, and basically was pushing folks towards that. It’s a web ‘zine for folks near retirement, so it’s basically, saying “play golf,” or “putter about in the workshop,” to stretch some stereotypes. Me, I’m definitely a “putter about in the workshop” kind of guy. Seems to do the trick for me. [EDIT] Added “about” to “putter in the workshop.”
  - leetrout 4y ago
    I was struggling to figure out the relationship of working on a putter in a workshop if you were not playing golf. THEN I realized you were not talking about a putter.
    - ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
      Good point. You can tell I don’t play golf. I tweaked it.
superb-owl 4y ago
Hedonic and eudaimonic happiness are two ends of a very long continuum. It's a question of temporal range--do you reward your near-future self at the cost of a far futue-self (e.g. by drinking) or do you reward your far-future self at the cost of your near-future self (e.g. by studying or working). It's not always (or even often) a zero-sum trade, but there's still a balance that needs to be struck.
- cat_plus_plus 4y ago
  Except that eudaimonic happiness is not guaranteed to produce tangible rewards, it's the act of striving itself that matters.
  - bagacrap 4y ago
    Hedonic happiness doesn't have to penalize one's future self, either. I can have a good time without alcohol. The distrinction is whether or how much something is enjoyable while it's being done vs in retrospect.
- andreareina 4y ago
  Hard disagree, they are of distinctly different kind; I have experienced contentment of similar or even greater magnitude than some episodes of hedonic pleasure.
Silverback_VII 4y ago
"Mankind does not strive for happiness; only the Englishman does” - Nietzsche
- formerkrogemp 4y ago
  - moosedev 4y ago
    This is a low-effort invocation of an ethnic stereotype, based on the actions of a few long-dead elites. It doesn't add anything interesting or insightful to the discussion of the article or the topic. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
skybrian 4y ago
I'm not sure that whatever happiness you get from "flow" is all that similar to the other kinds? Many addictive video games are good at stimulating this, but when you're done playing, what do you have? So I doubt anyone knows how many kinds of happiness there are. It's unlikely that there are two.
- ip26 4y ago
  “Flow” is not the typical addictive video game, with a dopamine reward cycle. It’s when you do something hard, satisfying, and you are good enough to relax into doing that hard thing. Aptly-named “flowy” mountain bike trails are a great example. It’s not sustainable over many hours because it is hard, and you have to come up for air. But you feel whole, well, satisfied, in doing it.
  - dtdynasty 4y ago
    It feels a little self congratulatory for flow to only be for people who only do hard things, though it might support the feeling of satisfaction. First the definition of hard is already difficult to define across people and activities. From a happiness standpoint, I don't see why a simple or easy focus couldn't also induce a state of flow if they were in the moment and enjoyed it. In a way, being entranced in a TV show is a state of flow. Society just has shame built into the idea of wasting time due to the scarcity of our environment.
    - ip26 4y ago
      Flow has nothing to do with what other people define as hard. It’s fundamentally personal. Flow is a task that is hard enough for you that it is still work, but you are skilled enough you can do it masterfully. It’s when you think to yourself in the moment, ”yeah OK this is not easy, but damn, I’m GOOD at this! This is fun!” Watching TV is unlikely to reach a flow state for you because I doubt you personally find watching TV challenging. Of course, if you did find it challenging, you could perhaps reach that state.
rr808 4y ago
I think I've found Flow to be possibly negative. Its like drug, after you do it a few times you end up chasing it. Doesn't really makes you happy, productive maybe but grumpy and annoyed to be interrupted. Turns you into a loner.
- vouaobrasil 4y ago
  I don't find this to be true in my own life. I get into a lot of flow moments with my passions and it's become just a thing I settle into like sleep. I also don't mind being interrupted sometimes because I set aside enough time to be in the flow. I think the key is, let it happen but don't become attached to it and let it go when you can't have it.
- alexchantavy 4y ago
  Are there other articles on this? I sometimes crave flow at the expense of other life obligations and struggle with balance here.
moviewise 4y ago
Experiencing flow while learning skills and working on something meaningful is happiness. "It’s amazing how much contentment and sheer satisfaction is found in finding something you are interested in learning and seeing yourself grow as your mind and skills expand while progressing through ever more complex levels. It’s like a video game, but better! Actively learning something stops time, or at least you won’t notice the passage of time because you’re so gratifyingly engaged in something. This is the state of “flow,” or the feeling of energized focus and enjoyment while engaged in an activity that is discussed in the 2011 documentary, Happy." From: https://moviewise.substack.com/p/going-through-an-existential-crisis https://moviewise.substack.com/p/going-through-an-existentia...
mberning 4y ago
It's a fascinating topic, especially as you become older. The saying that the only thing more tragic than not getting what you want is finally getting it seems true based on experience. It kind of suggests an ascetic lifestyle, or at the very least, having a well developed sense of "enough". Schopenhauer had a lot to say on this subject. His conclusion was that you could escape these hedonic forces/desires by engaging in art, philosophy, etc. Similar to what TFA is suggesting.
wikitopian 4y ago
I'm going to go with the happiness I can remember how to spell.
seibelj 4y ago
True satisfaction comes from massive sacrifice and personal investment. I enjoy getting drinks with friends and having good conversation, but what I'm truly satisfied with - I can die tomorrow without regrets - are my children, my marriage, building a business, completing my education, becoming proficient in new skills, buying property... things like this. You should be able to live in the moment, but if the moment is all you have and all you've done, life is without purpose.
- tmountain 4y ago
  Agreed 100%.
yawnxyz 4y ago
Coming from UX and game design, so many app designers try to "gamify" things like running, lifting, and cleaning. Adding gamification adds a short-lived hedonic happiness hit that doesn't last very long. Sometimes we'll see articles about "making apps delightful" by adding a shiny button to an app that looks great when you hit "task complete". By the 100th time you click that button, that hit will have worn off. Gamification works as a crutch at best. Instead, designers should really aim for the "eudaimonic" side of the task. E.g. your room is now clean. Or a workout app could help users better keep track of their strength / ability to lift heavier / better form over time, and reflect on their improvements. These will make users feel a lot more gratification.
- andreareina 4y ago
  Sometimes it takes time to cultivate intrinsic motivation. Gamification can get you over that hump.
  - dasz 4y ago
    I've moved on from gamification and thoroughly removed all such interventions from everything. I found the extrinsic nature of the mechanisms wasn't helping and were creating a distraction in and of themselves. Metrics are generally overrated in my view. The ones that matter really matter but the rest are just noise that slows and obfuscates.
    - freahsteaksauce 4y ago
      What metrics matter?
- alexslobodnik 4y ago
  the initial hit of delight can help folks work through the parts of the app that are deficient. give value as soon as possible.
clumsysmurf 4y ago
"There’s the well-known notion that we tend to get greater happiness from experiences rather than possessions." This seems like an oversimplification > Their research found that people who were less financially advantaged (partially measured by income, occupation and education) reported just as much, if not more, happiness from spending on material objects over experiences. https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/24/spending-money-on-objects-makes-us-happy-too.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/24/spending-money-on-objects-ma...
- coffee_beqn 4y ago
  There’s a baseline of material that can be quite high before you get diminishing returns. Moving to a nicer neighborhood or a bigger place instead of having a 3 person household in a studio apartment where you get stabbed on your way in etc. Eating healthy and well made food instead of cheap hot dogs and macaroni every night.. being able to get a level of medical care that puts your mind at ease and prevents long term issues. Having the financial freedom to take extended time off your work and go somewhere enjoyable. These all have very real effects on your stress, well-being and happiness in the short and long term.
- slothtrop 4y ago
  For one, we experience our possessions, to varying degrees. Or they have a use specific to experience. In fact, people grossly underestimate the stuff (or waste) required for what they liken to experiences. You usually can't divorce one from the other, unless your experience costs nothing (i.e. go outside and walk).
cat_plus_plus 4y ago
Also eudaimonic happiness is the only thing you have control over. You can't always be rich, healthy, in a great relationship, with a job you love, children who are loving and successful etc. But you can always strive to fulfill your duties, improve yourself and live an honorable life
xwdv 4y ago
I think people confuse happiness and “happy events” too often and try to demonize hedonism by tying it to “capitalist treadmills” and wage slavery. Look, “Happy events” like buying some cool new thing, or going to a fancy party, or the birth of a child are of course temporary feelings of happiness. Yes that should be obvious, the point is to keep steady streams of these sort of happy events in your life. “Happiness” is a state, not tied to a particular event, it is a feeling. You get there by finally building structure into your life that easily allows for the creation of “happy events” with little effort. It is analogous to eating a good meal and being well fed. No one expects a few good meals to suddenly make them well fed, you must constantly eat meals to reach a state where you can be considered well fed and you must keep eating beyond that to maintain the status of being well fed. Happiness is something like that. A state of happiness without the occurrence of new happy events eventually deteriorates, unless you can lower the bar for happy events so low that merely being alive makes you happy. But it is very difficult and I don’t recommend it, because overstimulation of happiness makes it difficult to determine if you are actually happy. You must occasionally be unhappy to know this. Some people that are happy just because they are alive might not really be happy at all. A dystopian thought.
ggm 4y ago
I do not see any necessity to be either/or. The relative "amounts" should be in some balance, but its impossible to equalise, in any meaningful sense. One is a fleeting experience, the other has sustained value at a lower intensity. They are probably different emotional effects on your wellbeing, and have different outcomes. experience things, and take joy in simple experiences, and do acts which add value, and avoid harms to others. I can have hedonic happiness eating well cooked rice, and eudaimonic sharing it with friends. MFK Fisher writes how in old age, a simple dish of green peas can be more satisfying than a rich Escoffier sauced dish. thats zen class hedonic.
- hunter-gatherer 4y ago
  Sounds like you are in complete agreement with the article.
  - ggm 4y ago
    yes. I wanted to avoid doing what another thread pointed out was needless argumentative oppositional voice on HN. Maybe I should have said "I agree" fundamentally, I think this is a false dichotomy. I don't think the author proposed a strawman to knock down, but I do think its an instance of a faulty model: the implicit either/or in "two kinds of.." don't apply.
nmilo 4y ago
Maybe it's just because of the connotations we have behind the words, but I don't like the idea that a dinner with friends is somehow "hedonistic," but starting a business is somehow filling your life with meaning and purpose. Can't you find meaning and purpose solely in the pursuit of having good times in a good community? Plenty of happy people are happy just because they made lots of good friends and a healthy and happy family. Why should they need to find purpose in some arbitrary goal like running a marathon?
- derekp7 4y ago
  What you just described is actually the other type (eudaimonic) of happieness. You spent a lot of time and effort to cultivate those friendships and getting into that good community -- it isn't something that you just turn on one afternoon and it goes away the next day. Which is what makes this type of happiness so powerful -- it is like accumulating a lot of stock in a company that pays really good dividends on a regular basis. The dividends for the work (and time) cultivating those friendships and community connections are the punctuations of instances of hedonic happiness that are a direct result from it. Just like learning to play an instrument -- it isn't just possession of a hard-earned skill that makes you happy, it is knowing that you can put that skill to use to make music that you enjoy listening to, and performing for others. That impromptu guitar or piano performance at a random cocktail party may be hedonistic, however it is only made possible by the longer term commitment to the craft. Oh, and it doesn't really need to be hard work. A lot of musicians are in it purely for the joy of the craft. Personally, I get a lot of joy getting better at creating things, whether it is writing computer code or crafting furniture projects using my woodworking tools. And although it takes a time commitment, it is something that I just sit down and do for fun.
  - lisper 4y ago
    And possessions can work this way too. Our house is chock full of stuff, but it's stuff that we have acquired during extensive travel around the world. Every tchotchke reminds us of some place we've been and the experiences we had there. The stuff is meaningless to everyone else but full of meaning for us. Case in point: I have a cheap stuffed animal in the shape of a lobster. Out of context it's a piece of junk. But when you know that I bought it to commemorate the very first ad ever placed on Adwords (I was the lead engineer on that project back in 2000) -- a company called Lively Lobsters -- it takes on deep significance.
alecfreudenberg 4y ago
Isn't happiness just one of many emotions? Why is there such an obsession with it?
kstenerud 4y ago
These are both "activity" based definitions of happiness, which kind of misses the point. Talk to people on their deathbeds and you'll notice that they talk more about relationships than activities. The older I get, the more I understand what they were saying.
- jakzurr 4y ago
  That's really it. 30 years ago, I would have been quite puzzled by your explanation. Today, it seems so natural.
- flacebo 4y ago
  I don't disagree with your point, but for the longest time I took deathbed wisdom as some ultimate truth. However, one time it occured to me that maybe a dying person's regrets are not the way you should live your life. They didn't get infinite wisdom just because they're dying, and also the point of life is not that to be happy about your life and choices in your last couple of hours/days. I'm not saying you should dismiss everything they say, but to take it for what it is: the thoughts of a mind heavily influenced by dying.
  - kstenerud 4y ago
    I've found that the dying tend to focus on the last decade or so of their life with newfound clarity now that the daily material worries are trivial by comparison, and spend a fair bit of time thinking about how empty or full their life was depending on how they lived. The regrets inevitably revolve around relationships, distantly followed by accomplishments. Its not about being satisfied or not with your choices on your deathbed, so much as realizing on your deathbed that you've been miserable due to how you've lived, and have been too preoccupied or angry or fearful to pay any heed and make changes while you still had the chance. The first bout one has with this is when someone you know well dies, and you find yourself thinking about what could have been said or done but cannot now. That's probably also why the realization generally doesn't happen until later in life...
  - hiq 4y ago
    Related: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak%E2%80%93end_rule https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak%E2%80%93end_rule "The peak–end rule is a psychological heuristic in which people judge an experience largely based on how they felt at its peak (i.e., its most intense point) and at its end, rather than based on the total sum or average of every moment of the experience."
barrysteve 4y ago
Happiness is silly and blithe. Better to have a deep well to draw from and good health.
jakzurr 4y ago
Imagine making a sumptuous dinner and then sharing it with friends. There would be the eudaimonic happiness associated with preparing a great meal and then the hedonic pleasure of enjoying it with others. You get both types of happiness—but you get them at different times. Different times? I don't really agree. Sharing an event of any kind has always been much more fun (and rewarding) for me; there's just no comparison. In fact, from my experience, you can always have both "type of happiness," and I wouldn't have it any other way.
deadlikejake 4y ago
Whoever wrote this seems like a miserable person
pisipisipisi 4y ago
Ikigai
patientplatypus 4y ago
jongjong 4y ago
Happiness is having good health and enough money to be able to buy 90% of your time to do whatever you want to do. IMO, people who say that money doesn't make you happy simply lack imagination.
- delusional 4y ago
  The while point of the såning "money doesn't but happiness" is that you shouldn't work away everything you enjoy. It's a saying of the working class, a saying for us who trade time for money. It's supposed to remind you that such a trade only goes one way, and that you can never trade the money you got for spending your time doing bullshit back into quality time. It does not mean that money makes you sad, or that the rich aren't better off.
- rcar1046 4y ago
  Then something must be wrong with me.
- AlwaysRock 4y ago
  The amount of money maters. Too much money can fuck up your head. At a certain point it impacts your relationships with others which in turn impacts your life significantly.
madaxe_again 4y ago
I’m sorry, but this is horseshit. I have spent my entire life to date trying to be useful to people, to society, and it definitely doesn’t result in happiness - rather, an ever-growing resentment at the fact that I am a disposable tool that others are happy to extract value from, but will immediately discard the moment that the tool needs maintenance. At this point, I am rusted and broken and am no damned use to anyone - and oh boy do people make sure to let me know that I am useless garbage. Happiness is a marketing tool, nothing more - a dragon to chase to sell you products and services, and in this case, to sell yourself into bonded servitude. Our society is sick. Productivity is not the sole value axis of a human being, but we almost unanimously act as though it is.
- badpun 4y ago
  > At this point, I am rusted and broken and am no damned use to anyone - and oh boy do people make sure to let me know that I am useless garbage. I've been following your posts for a while (could make for an interesting blog BTW) - aren't you now in Portugal and out of the job/work world?
  - madaxe_again 4y ago
    Yes, but the scars run deep, and these values are not exclusive to work and employment - virtually every interpersonal relationship, in my experience, turns out to be fundamentally mercenary. I befriend people, or so I think, and I become infinite unpaid tech support. When I put my foot down and tell them to read the damned manual, upset and offence occurs. I did still do some consulting on the side, until last week, when I politely requested that my few clients pay me a fair market rate, as I had been operating on five year old rates that were cheap even at the time — unsurprisingly, they are no longer my clients. I had worked with them out of a sense of loyalty due to the longevity of the relationships - which evidently was not mutual. Right this moment, I am away from home on vacation for the first time since the pandemic struck, and rather than being able to relax, I am spending several hours a day dealing with/fending off requests for free technical support from said ex-clients, friends, and family. It does not give me a warm, glowing feeling to be able to solve the problems of others, ad infinitum, and any seemingly meaningful engagement with society inevitably turns into exploitation. There’s never any gratitude - and to be clear, I don’t expect grovelling worshipfulness, just a “thank you for taking the time” - just ratcheting expectations. I had dreams of being able to take the time to write - and write I do, but I find no meaning in it, as nothing I write has an audience beyond myself. The only place I find meaning is in sitting quietly in the forest, and just being a human animal amidst non-human animals. I wouldn’t call it happiness, rather… contentment? Groundedness? An absence, or at least diminshment, of despair and fury? Honestly, I wouldn’t follow me - I am a bitter weirdo who has recused himself from the world, for good reason. I am never quite sure if it is the human world that is broken, or me - or both.
martin1975 4y ago
“Happiness cannot be pursued; it must ensue, and it only does so as the unintended side-effect of one's personal dedication to a cause greater than oneself or as the by-product of one's surrender to a person other than oneself. Happiness must happen: you have to let it happen by not caring about it.”- Viktor Frankl
- vishnugupta 4y ago
  This is a corollary of a verse from an Indian epic which loosely translates to “one should be duty bound without expecting any benefits”
SPBS 4y ago
happiness is also how you choose to frame your world, not necessarily from doing an external action
nkotov 4y ago
Happiness is the not same as fulfillment/contentment in life.
neillyons 4y ago
The way Joe Rogan framed happiness [0] resonates with me more than this article. It is like hunger. You feel the emotion of unhappiness or a more specific emotion, and then take action to try and remedy the feeling (or ignore the emotion). [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgVu9G-VcQk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgVu9G-VcQk

The article talks about two types of happiness. “hedonic” and “euphoric”. I don’t think it matters personally. However, you reach a series of “happy” days that work for you is all that matters. I say, if you want to think of a value for your life. Add up the sum of how you liked your days. However you get there, It doesn’t matter.

corytheboyd 4y ago
Do things you like doing, and don't do things you don't like doing. Boom
- arminiusreturns 4y ago
  Epicurianism badically, which I usually temper with a dash of stoicism; learn to suffer through the things you don't like when they can't be avoided.
- kgabbott 4y ago
  But which “you” matters here? Is it the you of the current moment, next hour, tomorrow, next month, etc…? Any activity you do regularly and consistently will bring about different emotions and states of mind on different days. Some days you can’t wait to get started and some times you go weeks of having no motivation towards it. I’m on a journey right now of hiking 50 miles a week. On most days, being able to get in nature for an hour or more is such a serene and grounding experience that brings me a lot of joy. But there are weeks where I don’t want to get out there, and even when I get started I don’t want to be there. But looking back, I see those days as part of the whole experience. I have retroactive enjoyment and pride in having pushed myself (type 2 fun) and I know that the subsequent 50 mile weeks are easier and more enjoyable because I kept the consistency up. Yes, it is good to take breaks from things when you’re not enjoying them anymore. This allows you to reevaluate and get back your motivating “why”. But it can also be extremely hard to get back into a routine after a relatively short break. Anyone who has not exercised for a few weeks will know that feeling of weakness when they get started again.
  - moviewise 4y ago
    I'd argue that the problem when you don't feel motivated (provided it's not because of a lack of sleep, hydration, or nutrition that's making you feel tired) is that you are not learning something new. This is why it's important to vary the location, or time, or who you go hiking with etc. If you add some variety to your activity, you will feel more motivated because you'll get to learn/experience something new, which is intrinsically exciting and rewarding.
- refurb 4y ago
  I don't like working, and I like smoking crack. You're saying that my path to happiness?
  - nobody9999 4y ago
    >I don't like working, and I like smoking crack. You're saying that my path to happiness? From the standpoint of immediacy, it absolutely can be. From a medium to long term standpoint, the path this presents may or may not be a happy one (I posit that happiness is a process and not a resting state), which is highly dependent upon your circumstances. If you're fabulously wealthy, smoking crack all day for the rest of your life might be a very happy path. If you're not, there are likely some bumps along that path which could negatively impact one's happiness. Your "argument" attempts to conflate the travails of a tiny minority (those whose lives are negatively impacted by substance use issues) of us as a major component of the process called "happiness." Which is unfortunate, as there's (as has been mentioned elsewhere here) that hedonistic activities (like smoking crack) are certainly on the same spectrum as eudaimonic activities (like working at a job you find fulfilling) and are, in their effects, quite similar. Yes, I do realize your "argument" is a straw man specifically designed with all sorts of baggage to placate folks into not looking too closely at that "argument." I'm sorry I'm unable to be placated thusly.
  - daniel-cussen 4y ago
    I meet many beggars and if they tell me hey I just need it for crack, I'm like, you're Jesus's favorite every one of you, I have very little, but in relative terms compared to them I'm still in practice rich. Like literally I feel embarrassed when I have to tell them I don't have something, I apologize in fact in these cases. I plan ahead for when I'm outside make sure I have loose change and not 10 peso Chilean pennies like actual 500 peso coins (50 cents), money for real. Let them be happy for a bit, hell. State of California did it for me (for ADD treatment, a stimulant), and I paid crazy extra taxes back despite having nothing, just so they can do it for another junkie again. I'm like, if it's your money you begged for it spend it on whatever you really want, whatever you really really want. There was a serious presidential candidate here saying, Jadué[1]. So what you do with the addicts is you dispense them a reasonable amount, of whatever. Anything. And really? They're not addicted by accident. There's a reason there wasn't a crack epidemic in the 60's, it wasn't because people couldn't figure out the trivial recipe with fucking baking soda and cocaine like in any kitchen? The CIA did not invent crack because nobody can invent crack because it's not patentable, it's obvious. In fact the crack epidemic is a response to the 60's, crack cures the system of the counter-culture. [1] I like his party I like that he's Marxist, I feel red too, and American Republican, just like the color red, let me declare it here. Color-based political affiliation in Chile and in America, just red in both. Republican red, Marxist red. That's legal, you can be a Republican and a card-carrying Communist if you're open about it. I'll see where I can get an actual card I can carry. I just like the color red. EDIT: this came out with a lot of explosion, good thing it's nested deep in the comments, let it be known I had to leave a lot out. That was some really unwise stuff to write...even drafting it, like any javascript keylogger...oh well I'll compile it, it'll be in a book perhaps. Well I guess anything that goes through a computer is public from day one. Anyway, a book about what's up, why you can't just reach out for happiness like you mock real people for doing. It's actually not that complicated. It's upcoming. Maybe. I actually am figuring out my business and my idealism simultaneously, and you can read about it all on http://www.fgemm.com http://www.fgemm.com .
- brokenmachine 4y ago
  Boom, I'm homeless.
ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
I think “euphoric” is the same as “hedonic.” He was discussing “eudaimonic” happiness, and basically was pushing folks towards that. It’s a web ‘zine for folks near retirement, so it’s basically, saying “play golf,” or “putter about in the workshop,” to stretch some stereotypes. Me, I’m definitely a “putter about in the workshop” kind of guy. Seems to do the trick for me. [EDIT] Added “about” to “putter in the workshop.”
- leetrout 4y ago
  I was struggling to figure out the relationship of working on a putter in a workshop if you were not playing golf. THEN I realized you were not talking about a putter.
  - ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
    Good point. You can tell I don’t play golf. I tweaked it.

superb-owl 4y ago

Hedonic and eudaimonic happiness are two ends of a very long continuum. It's a question of temporal range--do you reward your near-future self at the cost of a far futue-self (e.g. by drinking) or do you reward your far-future self at the cost of your near-future self (e.g. by studying or working). It's not always (or even often) a zero-sum trade, but there's still a balance that needs to be struck.

cat_plus_plus 4y ago
Except that eudaimonic happiness is not guaranteed to produce tangible rewards, it's the act of striving itself that matters.
- bagacrap 4y ago
  Hedonic happiness doesn't have to penalize one's future self, either. I can have a good time without alcohol. The distrinction is whether or how much something is enjoyable while it's being done vs in retrospect.
andreareina 4y ago
Hard disagree, they are of distinctly different kind; I have experienced contentment of similar or even greater magnitude than some episodes of hedonic pleasure.

Silverback_VII 4y ago

"Mankind does not strive for happiness; only the Englishman does” - Nietzsche

formerkrogemp 4y ago
- moosedev 4y ago
  This is a low-effort invocation of an ethnic stereotype, based on the actions of a few long-dead elites. It doesn't add anything interesting or insightful to the discussion of the article or the topic. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

skybrian 4y ago

I'm not sure that whatever happiness you get from "flow" is all that similar to the other kinds? Many addictive video games are good at stimulating this, but when you're done playing, what do you have? So I doubt anyone knows how many kinds of happiness there are. It's unlikely that there are two.

ip26 4y ago
“Flow” is not the typical addictive video game, with a dopamine reward cycle. It’s when you do something hard, satisfying, and you are good enough to relax into doing that hard thing. Aptly-named “flowy” mountain bike trails are a great example. It’s not sustainable over many hours because it is hard, and you have to come up for air. But you feel whole, well, satisfied, in doing it.
- dtdynasty 4y ago
  It feels a little self congratulatory for flow to only be for people who only do hard things, though it might support the feeling of satisfaction. First the definition of hard is already difficult to define across people and activities. From a happiness standpoint, I don't see why a simple or easy focus couldn't also induce a state of flow if they were in the moment and enjoyed it. In a way, being entranced in a TV show is a state of flow. Society just has shame built into the idea of wasting time due to the scarcity of our environment.
  - ip26 4y ago
    Flow has nothing to do with what other people define as hard. It’s fundamentally personal. Flow is a task that is hard enough for you that it is still work, but you are skilled enough you can do it masterfully. It’s when you think to yourself in the moment, ”yeah OK this is not easy, but damn, I’m GOOD at this! This is fun!” Watching TV is unlikely to reach a flow state for you because I doubt you personally find watching TV challenging. Of course, if you did find it challenging, you could perhaps reach that state.

rr808 4y ago

I think I've found Flow to be possibly negative. Its like drug, after you do it a few times you end up chasing it. Doesn't really makes you happy, productive maybe but grumpy and annoyed to be interrupted. Turns you into a loner.

vouaobrasil 4y ago
I don't find this to be true in my own life. I get into a lot of flow moments with my passions and it's become just a thing I settle into like sleep. I also don't mind being interrupted sometimes because I set aside enough time to be in the flow. I think the key is, let it happen but don't become attached to it and let it go when you can't have it.
alexchantavy 4y ago
Are there other articles on this? I sometimes crave flow at the expense of other life obligations and struggle with balance here.

moviewise 4y ago

Experiencing flow while learning skills and working on something meaningful is happiness. "It’s amazing how much contentment and sheer satisfaction is found in finding something you are interested in learning and seeing yourself grow as your mind and skills expand while progressing through ever more complex levels. It’s like a video game, but better! Actively learning something stops time, or at least you won’t notice the passage of time because you’re so gratifyingly engaged in something. This is the state of “flow,” or the feeling of energized focus and enjoyment while engaged in an activity that is discussed in the 2011 documentary, Happy." From: https://moviewise.substack.com/p/going-through-an-existential-crisis https://moviewise.substack.com/p/going-through-an-existentia...

mberning 4y ago

It's a fascinating topic, especially as you become older. The saying that the only thing more tragic than not getting what you want is finally getting it seems true based on experience. It kind of suggests an ascetic lifestyle, or at the very least, having a well developed sense of "enough". Schopenhauer had a lot to say on this subject. His conclusion was that you could escape these hedonic forces/desires by engaging in art, philosophy, etc. Similar to what TFA is suggesting.

wikitopian 4y ago

I'm going to go with the happiness I can remember how to spell.

seibelj 4y ago

True satisfaction comes from massive sacrifice and personal investment. I enjoy getting drinks with friends and having good conversation, but what I'm truly satisfied with - I can die tomorrow without regrets - are my children, my marriage, building a business, completing my education, becoming proficient in new skills, buying property... things like this. You should be able to live in the moment, but if the moment is all you have and all you've done, life is without purpose.

tmountain 4y ago
Agreed 100%.

yawnxyz 4y ago

Coming from UX and game design, so many app designers try to "gamify" things like running, lifting, and cleaning. Adding gamification adds a short-lived hedonic happiness hit that doesn't last very long. Sometimes we'll see articles about "making apps delightful" by adding a shiny button to an app that looks great when you hit "task complete". By the 100th time you click that button, that hit will have worn off. Gamification works as a crutch at best. Instead, designers should really aim for the "eudaimonic" side of the task. E.g. your room is now clean. Or a workout app could help users better keep track of their strength / ability to lift heavier / better form over time, and reflect on their improvements. These will make users feel a lot more gratification.

andreareina 4y ago
Sometimes it takes time to cultivate intrinsic motivation. Gamification can get you over that hump.
- dasz 4y ago
  I've moved on from gamification and thoroughly removed all such interventions from everything. I found the extrinsic nature of the mechanisms wasn't helping and were creating a distraction in and of themselves. Metrics are generally overrated in my view. The ones that matter really matter but the rest are just noise that slows and obfuscates.
  - freahsteaksauce 4y ago
    What metrics matter?
alexslobodnik 4y ago
the initial hit of delight can help folks work through the parts of the app that are deficient. give value as soon as possible.

clumsysmurf 4y ago

"There’s the well-known notion that we tend to get greater happiness from experiences rather than possessions." This seems like an oversimplification > Their research found that people who were less financially advantaged (partially measured by income, occupation and education) reported just as much, if not more, happiness from spending on material objects over experiences. https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/24/spending-money-on-objects-makes-us-happy-too.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/24/spending-money-on-objects-ma...

coffee_beqn 4y ago
There’s a baseline of material that can be quite high before you get diminishing returns. Moving to a nicer neighborhood or a bigger place instead of having a 3 person household in a studio apartment where you get stabbed on your way in etc. Eating healthy and well made food instead of cheap hot dogs and macaroni every night.. being able to get a level of medical care that puts your mind at ease and prevents long term issues. Having the financial freedom to take extended time off your work and go somewhere enjoyable. These all have very real effects on your stress, well-being and happiness in the short and long term.
slothtrop 4y ago
For one, we experience our possessions, to varying degrees. Or they have a use specific to experience. In fact, people grossly underestimate the stuff (or waste) required for what they liken to experiences. You usually can't divorce one from the other, unless your experience costs nothing (i.e. go outside and walk).

cat_plus_plus 4y ago

Also eudaimonic happiness is the only thing you have control over. You can't always be rich, healthy, in a great relationship, with a job you love, children who are loving and successful etc. But you can always strive to fulfill your duties, improve yourself and live an honorable life

xwdv 4y ago

I think people confuse happiness and “happy events” too often and try to demonize hedonism by tying it to “capitalist treadmills” and wage slavery. Look, “Happy events” like buying some cool new thing, or going to a fancy party, or the birth of a child are of course temporary feelings of happiness. Yes that should be obvious, the point is to keep steady streams of these sort of happy events in your life. “Happiness” is a state, not tied to a particular event, it is a feeling. You get there by finally building structure into your life that easily allows for the creation of “happy events” with little effort. It is analogous to eating a good meal and being well fed. No one expects a few good meals to suddenly make them well fed, you must constantly eat meals to reach a state where you can be considered well fed and you must keep eating beyond that to maintain the status of being well fed. Happiness is something like that. A state of happiness without the occurrence of new happy events eventually deteriorates, unless you can lower the bar for happy events so low that merely being alive makes you happy. But it is very difficult and I don’t recommend it, because overstimulation of happiness makes it difficult to determine if you are actually happy. You must occasionally be unhappy to know this. Some people that are happy just because they are alive might not really be happy at all. A dystopian thought.

ggm 4y ago

I do not see any necessity to be either/or. The relative "amounts" should be in some balance, but its impossible to equalise, in any meaningful sense. One is a fleeting experience, the other has sustained value at a lower intensity. They are probably different emotional effects on your wellbeing, and have different outcomes. experience things, and take joy in simple experiences, and do acts which add value, and avoid harms to others. I can have hedonic happiness eating well cooked rice, and eudaimonic sharing it with friends. MFK Fisher writes how in old age, a simple dish of green peas can be more satisfying than a rich Escoffier sauced dish. thats zen class hedonic.

hunter-gatherer 4y ago
Sounds like you are in complete agreement with the article.
- ggm 4y ago
  yes. I wanted to avoid doing what another thread pointed out was needless argumentative oppositional voice on HN. Maybe I should have said "I agree" fundamentally, I think this is a false dichotomy. I don't think the author proposed a strawman to knock down, but I do think its an instance of a faulty model: the implicit either/or in "two kinds of.." don't apply.

nmilo 4y ago

Maybe it's just because of the connotations we have behind the words, but I don't like the idea that a dinner with friends is somehow "hedonistic," but starting a business is somehow filling your life with meaning and purpose. Can't you find meaning and purpose solely in the pursuit of having good times in a good community? Plenty of happy people are happy just because they made lots of good friends and a healthy and happy family. Why should they need to find purpose in some arbitrary goal like running a marathon?

derekp7 4y ago
What you just described is actually the other type (eudaimonic) of happieness. You spent a lot of time and effort to cultivate those friendships and getting into that good community -- it isn't something that you just turn on one afternoon and it goes away the next day. Which is what makes this type of happiness so powerful -- it is like accumulating a lot of stock in a company that pays really good dividends on a regular basis. The dividends for the work (and time) cultivating those friendships and community connections are the punctuations of instances of hedonic happiness that are a direct result from it. Just like learning to play an instrument -- it isn't just possession of a hard-earned skill that makes you happy, it is knowing that you can put that skill to use to make music that you enjoy listening to, and performing for others. That impromptu guitar or piano performance at a random cocktail party may be hedonistic, however it is only made possible by the longer term commitment to the craft. Oh, and it doesn't really need to be hard work. A lot of musicians are in it purely for the joy of the craft. Personally, I get a lot of joy getting better at creating things, whether it is writing computer code or crafting furniture projects using my woodworking tools. And although it takes a time commitment, it is something that I just sit down and do for fun.
- lisper 4y ago
  And possessions can work this way too. Our house is chock full of stuff, but it's stuff that we have acquired during extensive travel around the world. Every tchotchke reminds us of some place we've been and the experiences we had there. The stuff is meaningless to everyone else but full of meaning for us. Case in point: I have a cheap stuffed animal in the shape of a lobster. Out of context it's a piece of junk. But when you know that I bought it to commemorate the very first ad ever placed on Adwords (I was the lead engineer on that project back in 2000) -- a company called Lively Lobsters -- it takes on deep significance.

alecfreudenberg 4y ago

Isn't happiness just one of many emotions? Why is there such an obsession with it?

kstenerud 4y ago

These are both "activity" based definitions of happiness, which kind of misses the point. Talk to people on their deathbeds and you'll notice that they talk more about relationships than activities. The older I get, the more I understand what they were saying.

jakzurr 4y ago
That's really it. 30 years ago, I would have been quite puzzled by your explanation. Today, it seems so natural.
flacebo 4y ago
I don't disagree with your point, but for the longest time I took deathbed wisdom as some ultimate truth. However, one time it occured to me that maybe a dying person's regrets are not the way you should live your life. They didn't get infinite wisdom just because they're dying, and also the point of life is not that to be happy about your life and choices in your last couple of hours/days. I'm not saying you should dismiss everything they say, but to take it for what it is: the thoughts of a mind heavily influenced by dying.
- kstenerud 4y ago
  I've found that the dying tend to focus on the last decade or so of their life with newfound clarity now that the daily material worries are trivial by comparison, and spend a fair bit of time thinking about how empty or full their life was depending on how they lived. The regrets inevitably revolve around relationships, distantly followed by accomplishments. Its not about being satisfied or not with your choices on your deathbed, so much as realizing on your deathbed that you've been miserable due to how you've lived, and have been too preoccupied or angry or fearful to pay any heed and make changes while you still had the chance. The first bout one has with this is when someone you know well dies, and you find yourself thinking about what could have been said or done but cannot now. That's probably also why the realization generally doesn't happen until later in life...
- hiq 4y ago
  Related: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak%E2%80%93end_rule https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak%E2%80%93end_rule "The peak–end rule is a psychological heuristic in which people judge an experience largely based on how they felt at its peak (i.e., its most intense point) and at its end, rather than based on the total sum or average of every moment of the experience."

barrysteve 4y ago

Happiness is silly and blithe. Better to have a deep well to draw from and good health.

jakzurr 4y ago

Imagine making a sumptuous dinner and then sharing it with friends. There would be the eudaimonic happiness associated with preparing a great meal and then the hedonic pleasure of enjoying it with others. You get both types of happiness—but you get them at different times. Different times? I don't really agree. Sharing an event of any kind has always been much more fun (and rewarding) for me; there's just no comparison. In fact, from my experience, you can always have both "type of happiness," and I wouldn't have it any other way.

deadlikejake 4y ago

Whoever wrote this seems like a miserable person

pisipisipisi 4y ago

Ikigai

patientplatypus 4y ago

jongjong 4y ago

Happiness is having good health and enough money to be able to buy 90% of your time to do whatever you want to do. IMO, people who say that money doesn't make you happy simply lack imagination.

delusional 4y ago
The while point of the såning "money doesn't but happiness" is that you shouldn't work away everything you enjoy. It's a saying of the working class, a saying for us who trade time for money. It's supposed to remind you that such a trade only goes one way, and that you can never trade the money you got for spending your time doing bullshit back into quality time. It does not mean that money makes you sad, or that the rich aren't better off.
rcar1046 4y ago
Then something must be wrong with me.
AlwaysRock 4y ago
The amount of money maters. Too much money can fuck up your head. At a certain point it impacts your relationships with others which in turn impacts your life significantly.

madaxe_again 4y ago

I’m sorry, but this is horseshit. I have spent my entire life to date trying to be useful to people, to society, and it definitely doesn’t result in happiness - rather, an ever-growing resentment at the fact that I am a disposable tool that others are happy to extract value from, but will immediately discard the moment that the tool needs maintenance. At this point, I am rusted and broken and am no damned use to anyone - and oh boy do people make sure to let me know that I am useless garbage. Happiness is a marketing tool, nothing more - a dragon to chase to sell you products and services, and in this case, to sell yourself into bonded servitude. Our society is sick. Productivity is not the sole value axis of a human being, but we almost unanimously act as though it is.

badpun 4y ago
> At this point, I am rusted and broken and am no damned use to anyone - and oh boy do people make sure to let me know that I am useless garbage. I've been following your posts for a while (could make for an interesting blog BTW) - aren't you now in Portugal and out of the job/work world?
- madaxe_again 4y ago
  Yes, but the scars run deep, and these values are not exclusive to work and employment - virtually every interpersonal relationship, in my experience, turns out to be fundamentally mercenary. I befriend people, or so I think, and I become infinite unpaid tech support. When I put my foot down and tell them to read the damned manual, upset and offence occurs. I did still do some consulting on the side, until last week, when I politely requested that my few clients pay me a fair market rate, as I had been operating on five year old rates that were cheap even at the time — unsurprisingly, they are no longer my clients. I had worked with them out of a sense of loyalty due to the longevity of the relationships - which evidently was not mutual. Right this moment, I am away from home on vacation for the first time since the pandemic struck, and rather than being able to relax, I am spending several hours a day dealing with/fending off requests for free technical support from said ex-clients, friends, and family. It does not give me a warm, glowing feeling to be able to solve the problems of others, ad infinitum, and any seemingly meaningful engagement with society inevitably turns into exploitation. There’s never any gratitude - and to be clear, I don’t expect grovelling worshipfulness, just a “thank you for taking the time” - just ratcheting expectations. I had dreams of being able to take the time to write - and write I do, but I find no meaning in it, as nothing I write has an audience beyond myself. The only place I find meaning is in sitting quietly in the forest, and just being a human animal amidst non-human animals. I wouldn’t call it happiness, rather… contentment? Groundedness? An absence, or at least diminshment, of despair and fury? Honestly, I wouldn’t follow me - I am a bitter weirdo who has recused himself from the world, for good reason. I am never quite sure if it is the human world that is broken, or me - or both.

martin1975 4y ago

“Happiness cannot be pursued; it must ensue, and it only does so as the unintended side-effect of one's personal dedication to a cause greater than oneself or as the by-product of one's surrender to a person other than oneself. Happiness must happen: you have to let it happen by not caring about it.”- Viktor Frankl

vishnugupta 4y ago
This is a corollary of a verse from an Indian epic which loosely translates to “one should be duty bound without expecting any benefits”

SPBS 4y ago

happiness is also how you choose to frame your world, not necessarily from doing an external action

nkotov 4y ago

Happiness is the not same as fulfillment/contentment in life.

neillyons 4y ago

The way Joe Rogan framed happiness [0] resonates with me more than this article. It is like hunger. You feel the emotion of unhappiness or a more specific emotion, and then take action to try and remedy the feeling (or ignore the emotion). [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgVu9G-VcQk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgVu9G-VcQk