4 ms·

One of the main appeals of a house is having a backyard and a garage. I can't tinker with and work on various project ideas or get certain pets because I live i

by _8j50 4y ago

One of the main appeals of a house is having a backyard and a garage. I can't tinker with and work on various project ideas or get certain pets because I live in an apartment,that won't change with mobile homes, you just end up doing your own maintenance, still make payments on it and pay a few hundred bucks to park the mobile home. There should be giant city-buildings with hundreds of thousands of dwelling spaces each with a large outdoor patio. A lot of problems like power distribution from certain powersources get resolved with this as well as many other resources like fresh water and fresh food (land is freed up for agriculture),waste disposal,transportation, medical care,etc... The urban sprawl made sense in the nuclear era but I believe the technology exists to make highly defensible mega buildings (10s of miles wide,50+ stories high).

revolvingocelot 4y ago
Sounds like you and Buckminister Fuller would have gotten along. [0] Count me in, too. That said, if the 70s couldn't birth a few concrete proto-arcologies, I'm not sure it's ever going to be politically possible. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Man_River%27s_City_project https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Man_River%27s_City_project
- ianai 4y ago
  It definitely requires a culture level buy-in. Maybe places already having high density populations could birth such a project. But that’s a catch22 itself.
  - _8j50 4y ago
    Yes it would. My idea was to start with the california coastline. Have it be very close to the ocean. 100k units facing the ocean, it makes it both economically viable (people will pay for it) and help bring housing prices and homelessness down. You will also have to fight a lot less NIMBY battles. The main problem is you need to commit billions of dollars to start with. The rent/hoa alone is probably not gonna give good ROI short term but having so many people there means a potential to design a very profitable center of economic activity. Ideally, the lowest levels would be stores. You would also be providing them with their supermarket, mall,hospitals,etc.... with an average total household income of 80k that's at least 3-4billion/year
    - ianai 4y ago
      Wouldn’t you need 400k units for 3-4 billion with that income per household? I suppose on the ocean would be interesting if it were tied with some desalination and generally using the ocean sustainably. One way to kick that sort of thing off might be individual, modular units which could be brought together to make ever larger complexes.
      - _8j50 4y ago
        Rent plus,groceries and most bills, if that is at least 50% of income (rent alone is typically a third of income) on 80k/yr that is 40k * 100k = 4B. Even with just 1500/mo rent that is 1.8B gross/yr and 18B in 10 years if net profit is only a 3rd of that (assuming it won't collect taxes like cities!) it will be 6B/10y. My point is, to recover costs in 10 years, you need to make it at a cost of 60k/unit which seems low but I am hoping economy of scale would make things cheaper. Like, it would make sense to have your own factories close by just for the concrete,wiring,etc... but at least with 100k/unit cost(10B) it should still be possible and the recovery time isn't too bad given mortgages go 30+ years. And picking a good location can guarantee occupancy.
    - octoberfranklin 4y ago
      No, the main problem with your plan is the California Coastal Commission.
      - _8j50 4y ago
        Only if a few hundred million dollars to change their mind plus making it within walking distance of the ocean but not beachfront might help or worst case a few miles from the beach with railway taking people from their units straight to a few of the nearest beaches. I can see calabassas be a good candidate or topanga if buying out all thr people there is economically viable.
    - fennecfoxen 4y ago
      Opinion: High density planned communities that try to take care of almost everything, like you describe, are a at serious risk of being insipid, mediocre, uninspiring, and worse. I think it’s something about the incentive structure, probably, but this is largely an empirical opinion; in my experience it’s just far better to live with a diversity of landlords in the area. New York has a great set of examples: A neighborhood like SoHo or Hell’s Kitchen or the Lower East Side is a magnet. An overproduced condo/office/retailplex like Hudson Yards, without much competition next door, is dull and insipid and soulless. A big complex like Rockefeller Center is actually kind of okay — because it’s embedded in a neighborhood where everyone has a dozen dozen places in a five minute walk they could go to instead. The D terminal at LaGuardia where everything is seamlessly integrated as a managed OTG Experience? The worst crime against commercial aviation in America in the past twenty years. Buy a hamburger there, I dare you.
geoduck14 4y ago
I've seen people rent storage units, and use them as "garage project locations". Mind you, they had to drive a mile to the storage unit. Would that meet any of your needs?
- brippalcharrid 4y ago
  A person doesn't need to add much friction to a hobby that they would otherwise dabble in opportunistically during their leisure time for it to become a pursuit that isn't practical without structuring various other things in their life around it. If people had to drive to a self-storage unit to watch television or partake in baking, I imagine we'd see rates of television viewership and baking go way down.
- _8j50 4y ago
  I don't know what the restrictions are but I have one within walking distance, I will look into that, thanks for the suggestion. My only concern is for safety and liability reasons they may not allow things like welding and working with chemicals that require good ventilation that and noise are the main restrictions with apartments.
- xani_ 4y ago
  Friction is the problem here. Even if it is 5 minute walk, well, it's PITA in winter, and the moment you have to move anything bigger than a backpack. 10 minute and 15 minute task turns into 10 + 15 + 10 minute task. Any longer and you're pretty much talking "I either go there for half a day or it is not worth it". Like, if there is no other option sure, but else it's major PITA for hobbies, something that's supposed to be fun. It would be cool if it was for example a bunch of rooms to rent in basement of apartment complex, but even then I can't imagine them being big enough (or with door big enough) to say work on a car.
  - Broken_Hippo 4y ago
    Even if it is 5 minute walk, well, it's PITA in winter, and the moment you have to move anything bigger than a backpack. 10 minute and 15 minute task turns into 10 + 15 + 10 minute task. It really isn't a big deal. I moved to Norway some years ago. I walk to the grocery store. I carry groceries back home. I'll walk for 30-45 minutes to get to a specialty store in the downtown area. I can take a bus for the longer trip, but the grocery stores are just as convenient as the bus stops. I carry more than can fit in a backpack. I do this on snow and ice and in rain and in sun. And basically, you dress in clothing that is appropriate for the weather and you treat the walk just like any other commute time. Walking 30 minutes to work and driving 30 minutes to work are both 30 minute commutes.
thrown_22 4y ago
>There should be giant city-buildings with hundreds of thousands of dwelling spaces each with a large outdoor patio. A lot of problems like power distribution from certain powersources get resolved with this as well as many other resources like fresh water and fresh food (land is freed up for agriculture),waste disposal,transportation, medical care,etc... This only works so long as they don't shade each other. Which means you end up with something like the Line from Saudi Arabia or ground level NYC where you're lucky to see the sun at noon.
- _8j50 4y ago
  Ideally they would be on mountains or have a pyramid like crescent shaped outline that is south facing so all units get sunlight and can grow vegetation,etc...
dahfizz 4y ago
I don't understand. How do you get hundreds of thousands of units, each with an outdoor patio? Is this building very long, but very thin? Is it some fractal that bends in on itself? At that point, I don't understand the benefit of having it be one contiguous structure. It sounds like a normal city but more expensive. I can see how a massive rectangular building is more space efficient, defensible, etc. But then most of the residents will never see the sun or get fresh air.

by _8j50 4y ago

revolvingocelot 4y ago

Sounds like you and Buckminister Fuller would have gotten along. [0] Count me in, too. That said, if the 70s couldn't birth a few concrete proto-arcologies, I'm not sure it's ever going to be politically possible. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Man_River%27s_City_project https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Man_River%27s_City_project

ianai 4y ago
It definitely requires a culture level buy-in. Maybe places already having high density populations could birth such a project. But that’s a catch22 itself.
- _8j50 4y ago
  Yes it would. My idea was to start with the california coastline. Have it be very close to the ocean. 100k units facing the ocean, it makes it both economically viable (people will pay for it) and help bring housing prices and homelessness down. You will also have to fight a lot less NIMBY battles. The main problem is you need to commit billions of dollars to start with. The rent/hoa alone is probably not gonna give good ROI short term but having so many people there means a potential to design a very profitable center of economic activity. Ideally, the lowest levels would be stores. You would also be providing them with their supermarket, mall,hospitals,etc.... with an average total household income of 80k that's at least 3-4billion/year
  - ianai 4y ago
    Wouldn’t you need 400k units for 3-4 billion with that income per household? I suppose on the ocean would be interesting if it were tied with some desalination and generally using the ocean sustainably. One way to kick that sort of thing off might be individual, modular units which could be brought together to make ever larger complexes.
    - _8j50 4y ago
      Rent plus,groceries and most bills, if that is at least 50% of income (rent alone is typically a third of income) on 80k/yr that is 40k * 100k = 4B. Even with just 1500/mo rent that is 1.8B gross/yr and 18B in 10 years if net profit is only a 3rd of that (assuming it won't collect taxes like cities!) it will be 6B/10y. My point is, to recover costs in 10 years, you need to make it at a cost of 60k/unit which seems low but I am hoping economy of scale would make things cheaper. Like, it would make sense to have your own factories close by just for the concrete,wiring,etc... but at least with 100k/unit cost(10B) it should still be possible and the recovery time isn't too bad given mortgages go 30+ years. And picking a good location can guarantee occupancy.
  - octoberfranklin 4y ago
    No, the main problem with your plan is the California Coastal Commission.
    - _8j50 4y ago
      Only if a few hundred million dollars to change their mind plus making it within walking distance of the ocean but not beachfront might help or worst case a few miles from the beach with railway taking people from their units straight to a few of the nearest beaches. I can see calabassas be a good candidate or topanga if buying out all thr people there is economically viable.
  - fennecfoxen 4y ago
    Opinion: High density planned communities that try to take care of almost everything, like you describe, are a at serious risk of being insipid, mediocre, uninspiring, and worse. I think it’s something about the incentive structure, probably, but this is largely an empirical opinion; in my experience it’s just far better to live with a diversity of landlords in the area. New York has a great set of examples: A neighborhood like SoHo or Hell’s Kitchen or the Lower East Side is a magnet. An overproduced condo/office/retailplex like Hudson Yards, without much competition next door, is dull and insipid and soulless. A big complex like Rockefeller Center is actually kind of okay — because it’s embedded in a neighborhood where everyone has a dozen dozen places in a five minute walk they could go to instead. The D terminal at LaGuardia where everything is seamlessly integrated as a managed OTG Experience? The worst crime against commercial aviation in America in the past twenty years. Buy a hamburger there, I dare you.

geoduck14 4y ago

I've seen people rent storage units, and use them as "garage project locations". Mind you, they had to drive a mile to the storage unit. Would that meet any of your needs?

brippalcharrid 4y ago
A person doesn't need to add much friction to a hobby that they would otherwise dabble in opportunistically during their leisure time for it to become a pursuit that isn't practical without structuring various other things in their life around it. If people had to drive to a self-storage unit to watch television or partake in baking, I imagine we'd see rates of television viewership and baking go way down.
_8j50 4y ago
I don't know what the restrictions are but I have one within walking distance, I will look into that, thanks for the suggestion. My only concern is for safety and liability reasons they may not allow things like welding and working with chemicals that require good ventilation that and noise are the main restrictions with apartments.
xani_ 4y ago
Friction is the problem here. Even if it is 5 minute walk, well, it's PITA in winter, and the moment you have to move anything bigger than a backpack. 10 minute and 15 minute task turns into 10 + 15 + 10 minute task. Any longer and you're pretty much talking "I either go there for half a day or it is not worth it". Like, if there is no other option sure, but else it's major PITA for hobbies, something that's supposed to be fun. It would be cool if it was for example a bunch of rooms to rent in basement of apartment complex, but even then I can't imagine them being big enough (or with door big enough) to say work on a car.
- Broken_Hippo 4y ago
  Even if it is 5 minute walk, well, it's PITA in winter, and the moment you have to move anything bigger than a backpack. 10 minute and 15 minute task turns into 10 + 15 + 10 minute task. It really isn't a big deal. I moved to Norway some years ago. I walk to the grocery store. I carry groceries back home. I'll walk for 30-45 minutes to get to a specialty store in the downtown area. I can take a bus for the longer trip, but the grocery stores are just as convenient as the bus stops. I carry more than can fit in a backpack. I do this on snow and ice and in rain and in sun. And basically, you dress in clothing that is appropriate for the weather and you treat the walk just like any other commute time. Walking 30 minutes to work and driving 30 minutes to work are both 30 minute commutes.

thrown_22 4y ago

>There should be giant city-buildings with hundreds of thousands of dwelling spaces each with a large outdoor patio. A lot of problems like power distribution from certain powersources get resolved with this as well as many other resources like fresh water and fresh food (land is freed up for agriculture),waste disposal,transportation, medical care,etc... This only works so long as they don't shade each other. Which means you end up with something like the Line from Saudi Arabia or ground level NYC where you're lucky to see the sun at noon.

_8j50 4y ago
Ideally they would be on mountains or have a pyramid like crescent shaped outline that is south facing so all units get sunlight and can grow vegetation,etc...

dahfizz 4y ago

I don't understand. How do you get hundreds of thousands of units, each with an outdoor patio? Is this building very long, but very thin? Is it some fractal that bends in on itself? At that point, I don't understand the benefit of having it be one contiguous structure. It sounds like a normal city but more expensive. I can see how a massive rectangular building is more space efficient, defensible, etc. But then most of the residents will never see the sun or get fresh air.