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As EU is asked to mobilise all available energy, anger at Germany grows

29 points by Dma54rhs 4y ago

mkl95 4y ago
Germans are living beyond their means. 10 years of austerity should fix it.
Proven 4y ago
mvdwoord 4y ago
Rightfully so. Merkel c.s. sold us out for her idealism. The "green" ideologists should be held accountable for this mess together with the ECB..
r_hoods_ghost 4y ago
Are there any German's that can give some context as to why the rest of the ruling coalition don't just turn around to the greens and tell them to go stuff themselves and keep the nuclear power plants running for another couple of years. Are there no other possible partners or is it politically impossible to break coalition agreements I Germany? I'm assuming that the German greens are not amenable to reason when it comes to nuclear powerand pollution.
- mkl95 4y ago
  Populism. The average European is afraid of nuclear energy. Pleasing your potential voters is much easier than educating them.
  - AdrianB1 4y ago
    There is no average European, I know at least 2 very different countries (France and Romania) where nuclear energy is popular.
  - throwoutway 4y ago
    It’s become vogue to blame everything on populism. This sounds like too simplistic of an excuse, and not even a real answer to OP’s question.
- origin_path 4y ago
  Not German but the issues here are generic. If they could do that it almost by definition wouldn't be a coalition. Nuclear is apparently a red line for the Greens. If they were to be kicked out of government then that government would collapse. Forming new governments can take a very long time in European PR systems - half a year isn't unheard of. The choice here is really one of either: 1. Convince the Greens to change. If they do they'll probably be destroyed at the next election, because they have relatively few well known positions and they already abandoned some of them. If they abandon their opposition to AKW then they will be left with nothing. 2. Collapse the government, meaning no decision making ability at all. The latter may potentially open up the possibility of new alliances, but they would be between ideologically opposed parties and therefore highly unstable. Lesser of two evils, right?
stareatgoats 4y ago
These texts implicitly calling for Germany to abandon it's policy of leaving nuclear energy in the dustbin of history are getting tiresome. It is as if the literati don't realize that it is a lethally hazardous source of energy that has the potential to lay the continent barren, given a the right conditions. Conditions like coordinated terrorist attacks, natural disasters, technical mishaps. And like war. Now war in continental Europe has of course been unthinkable for a long time. Well think again. In spite of the obviously untenable situation in Zaporizhzhia playing out in real time right before our eyes we still have people calling for more nuclear. It's outrageous. So in my mind, Germany is doing the right thing. In spite of Russia doing their best to prove that Europe needs this vulnerability they are leading the way towards the new economy that spells self reliance and resilience. The type of centralized energy production that nuclear represents is a defense liability, in addition to a health and environmental hazard for thousands of years to come as far as we know now.
- mytailorisrich 4y ago
  Unless there are hard safety reasons it does not make any practical difference to Germany's policy of leaving nuclear energy whether they close their few remaining nuclear power plants now, next year, or in 2024. But it makes a big difference to energy production through this winter, in the middle of a big energy crisis. So IMHO, Germany is again putting ideological and domestic political concerns before realism and a pragmatic approach.
- Bancakes 4y ago
  It's nuclear or nothing at all. It's nuclear or upper middle class gets energy. It's nuclear or "stoneage-with-smartphones". It's nuclear or we need thousands of 24/7 on-call maintenance jobs for all the renewables, and the landfills they will produce.
  - stareatgoats 4y ago
    Well, I suspect you just feel obliged to post hyperbole for some reason. But if you actually believe any of that then I hate to break it to you, you've been fooled in that case. None of your statements are true.
jmclnx 4y ago
I believe France is the only smart country in Europe (and maybe the world) when it comes to energy. They have built and still use nuclear instead of going all into green. Nuclear is a great bridge to when green energy is able to scale up. And I agree, why Germany is disabling nuclear now is crazy, even Japan is looking again at nuclear, and I think they will restart one of their reactors. If any country has a good reason to avoid nuclear it is Japan. Why, Japan is right on the "ring of fire".
- raytube 4y ago
  Ukraine shows how fragile and dangerous the reliance on reactors is. If the world can't behave responsibility. The long term costs of nuclear are just crap. You would be better investing in battery tech to store renewable energy.
  - NoPie 4y ago
    Thanks to nuclear Ukraine was (is?) selling electricity to the EU even during this war. Their nuclear power-stations has shown surprising resilience. Long term is exactly where nuclear rules.
    - BoardsOfCanada 4y ago
      It'd better be, since the radioactive waste will have to be stored for a million years, which is many times the age of homo sapiens. Of course we have to hope for technical advances to convert it to a more manageable form.
      - ehvatum 4y ago
        > millions of years Ridiculous. From NRC: “ Strontium-90 and cesium-137 have half-lives of about 30 years (half the radioactivity will decay in 30 years). Plutonium-239 has a half-life of 24,000 years. High-level wastes are hazardous because they produce fatal radiation doses during short periods of direct exposure.” Go to Hiroshima and Nagasaki. You see people. WEIRD!!!!
mikewarot 4y ago
It seems that the public doesn't understand the nature of industrial civilization. Clearly this is going to have disastrous consequences in the near term future. Management by fear just doesn't work, it's how we got here.

29 points by Dma54rhs 4y ago

mkl95 4y ago

Germans are living beyond their means. 10 years of austerity should fix it.

Proven 4y ago

mvdwoord 4y ago

Rightfully so. Merkel c.s. sold us out for her idealism. The "green" ideologists should be held accountable for this mess together with the ECB..

r_hoods_ghost 4y ago

Are there any German's that can give some context as to why the rest of the ruling coalition don't just turn around to the greens and tell them to go stuff themselves and keep the nuclear power plants running for another couple of years. Are there no other possible partners or is it politically impossible to break coalition agreements I Germany? I'm assuming that the German greens are not amenable to reason when it comes to nuclear powerand pollution.

mkl95 4y ago
Populism. The average European is afraid of nuclear energy. Pleasing your potential voters is much easier than educating them.
- AdrianB1 4y ago
  There is no average European, I know at least 2 very different countries (France and Romania) where nuclear energy is popular.
- throwoutway 4y ago
  It’s become vogue to blame everything on populism. This sounds like too simplistic of an excuse, and not even a real answer to OP’s question.
origin_path 4y ago
Not German but the issues here are generic. If they could do that it almost by definition wouldn't be a coalition. Nuclear is apparently a red line for the Greens. If they were to be kicked out of government then that government would collapse. Forming new governments can take a very long time in European PR systems - half a year isn't unheard of. The choice here is really one of either: 1. Convince the Greens to change. If they do they'll probably be destroyed at the next election, because they have relatively few well known positions and they already abandoned some of them. If they abandon their opposition to AKW then they will be left with nothing. 2. Collapse the government, meaning no decision making ability at all. The latter may potentially open up the possibility of new alliances, but they would be between ideologically opposed parties and therefore highly unstable. Lesser of two evils, right?

stareatgoats 4y ago

These texts implicitly calling for Germany to abandon it's policy of leaving nuclear energy in the dustbin of history are getting tiresome. It is as if the literati don't realize that it is a lethally hazardous source of energy that has the potential to lay the continent barren, given a the right conditions. Conditions like coordinated terrorist attacks, natural disasters, technical mishaps. And like war. Now war in continental Europe has of course been unthinkable for a long time. Well think again. In spite of the obviously untenable situation in Zaporizhzhia playing out in real time right before our eyes we still have people calling for more nuclear. It's outrageous. So in my mind, Germany is doing the right thing. In spite of Russia doing their best to prove that Europe needs this vulnerability they are leading the way towards the new economy that spells self reliance and resilience. The type of centralized energy production that nuclear represents is a defense liability, in addition to a health and environmental hazard for thousands of years to come as far as we know now.

mytailorisrich 4y ago
Unless there are hard safety reasons it does not make any practical difference to Germany's policy of leaving nuclear energy whether they close their few remaining nuclear power plants now, next year, or in 2024. But it makes a big difference to energy production through this winter, in the middle of a big energy crisis. So IMHO, Germany is again putting ideological and domestic political concerns before realism and a pragmatic approach.
Bancakes 4y ago
It's nuclear or nothing at all. It's nuclear or upper middle class gets energy. It's nuclear or "stoneage-with-smartphones". It's nuclear or we need thousands of 24/7 on-call maintenance jobs for all the renewables, and the landfills they will produce.
- stareatgoats 4y ago
  Well, I suspect you just feel obliged to post hyperbole for some reason. But if you actually believe any of that then I hate to break it to you, you've been fooled in that case. None of your statements are true.

jmclnx 4y ago

I believe France is the only smart country in Europe (and maybe the world) when it comes to energy. They have built and still use nuclear instead of going all into green. Nuclear is a great bridge to when green energy is able to scale up. And I agree, why Germany is disabling nuclear now is crazy, even Japan is looking again at nuclear, and I think they will restart one of their reactors. If any country has a good reason to avoid nuclear it is Japan. Why, Japan is right on the "ring of fire".

raytube 4y ago
Ukraine shows how fragile and dangerous the reliance on reactors is. If the world can't behave responsibility. The long term costs of nuclear are just crap. You would be better investing in battery tech to store renewable energy.
- NoPie 4y ago
  Thanks to nuclear Ukraine was (is?) selling electricity to the EU even during this war. Their nuclear power-stations has shown surprising resilience. Long term is exactly where nuclear rules.
  - BoardsOfCanada 4y ago
    It'd better be, since the radioactive waste will have to be stored for a million years, which is many times the age of homo sapiens. Of course we have to hope for technical advances to convert it to a more manageable form.
    - ehvatum 4y ago
      > millions of years Ridiculous. From NRC: “ Strontium-90 and cesium-137 have half-lives of about 30 years (half the radioactivity will decay in 30 years). Plutonium-239 has a half-life of 24,000 years. High-level wastes are hazardous because they produce fatal radiation doses during short periods of direct exposure.” Go to Hiroshima and Nagasaki. You see people. WEIRD!!!!

mikewarot 4y ago

It seems that the public doesn't understand the nature of industrial civilization. Clearly this is going to have disastrous consequences in the near term future. Management by fear just doesn't work, it's how we got here.