8 ms·
I think a big part of “growing up” is realizing that we’re (the US) not the good guys. 9/11 also happens to be the anniversary of the coup in Chile which was i
by hollywood_court 4y ago
I think a big part of “growing up” is realizing that we’re (the US) not the good guys.
9/11 also happens to be the anniversary of the coup in Chile which was instigated by the CIA.
- chrischen 4y agoYea but the "lesser of two evils" justification is how we get away with it morally.
- ethanbond 4y agoThen you realize there aren’t good guys or bad guys, there’s just a world of immense trade offs, and that on balance the US is a far preferable superpower than the other probable options.
- avgcorrection 4y agoIndeed. Some people never grow up (Kissinger is 99 years old, after all).
- hollywood_court 4y agoAll things are relative by both comparison and perspective. Most of South America would likely disagree with calling us the preferable superpower.
- P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y agoThat was my thought while reading the post you responded to. A US Citizen thinks the US is the best superpower? color me shocked (I'm also a US Citizen).
- ethanbond 4y agoOther recent contenders: Japan, Germany, USSR, and China? A US citizen thinks any of those even has a chance of being preferable to the US? Color me shocked!
- IYasha 4y agoI have an undefined identifier: Color::shocked. Which one would you like me to #define for you? I'd go for pink :)
- Beltalowda 4y agocolor="shocked" is kind of a turquoise blue.
- Gareth321 4y agoI am not American and I consider America to be preferable to just about any other contender. I'll take the EU, but if China were to ever take the role of the U.S., we are all in big trouble.
- disgruntledphd2 4y agoYeah, also not American, but given that the options are the US, the Russians or the Chinese, then the Americans are the least worst option (from my perspective, at least).
- enw 4y agoI’m also not American but am glad they are the world’s police. I’ll take them any day over Russia, China or any other large power.
- solveit 4y agoAlso not American, and I will add to the chorus. There is no potential superpower half as palatable as the US and I don't expect one to rise.
- Bakary 4y agoI can understand America and China being the only two realistic options for a superpower at the moment. What I don't understand is the idea that the EU as a superpower is less plausible than Russia?
- saltcured 4y agoI can't speak for the earlier commenter, but I think there is a large gap between what the EU does today and what it would need to do to be a "superpower". It is left to our imaginations to guess at such a future, and so disagreements may just stem from different imagined scenarios. I don't think the US would be a superpower if the treaties, tariffs, and military control were parceled out to the individual states and each state governor and state assembly decided when to work as a block and when to act independently.
- gadders 4y agoYou'd have preferred Soviet Russia?
- hollywood_court 4y agoI don’t remember saying that.
- snovv_crash 4y agoThe issue is that the Soviet Union was the other viable contender for superpower during the CIA-in-South-America days.
- carschno 4y agoApart from the superpowers, there were also significant political forces that were supporting democracy and social justice. On the other hand, both USA and USSR actively (and succesfully) fought them. I don't see any sense in calling either of the superpowers preferable in this context.
- solveit 4y agoThe point of the word "preferable", is that it means something different to the word "good".
- ethanbond 4y agoYes things could’ve been different and maybe better if you subtract huge amounts of reality (like the existence of rival empires)
- neonsunset 4y agoWhat makes you think democracy and social justice are compatible? What’s your definition on the latter?
- feet 4y agoDo you really think the CIA stopped being in South America?
- gaucheries 4y ago> the US is a far preferable superpower than the other probable options. do you have an argument for this claim?
- vitiral 4y agoSure, just imagine if Germany had gotten nukes first. Would they have never used them again? How many countries, when given damn near absolute power, wouldn't have used it to directly conquer?
- gaucheries 4y agothis just isn't an argument.
- gaucheries 4y ago
- Otek 4y agoYou asked for argument and he gave you one. You said it’s not an argument without backing it up anyhow why it’s not an argument > “lol”
- gaucheries 4y agohope you have a good day, OK? you are loved.
- lflflfdk 4y agoit is both an argument and the historical reason, the Manhattan Project existed because the US didnt want fascists to have nukes first
- toastercat 4y agoI disagree. They are seemingly rhetorical questions, but the answers to those questions are not immediately as obvious as they are implied to be.
- noobermin 4y agoHot take that might derail but honestly the EU would at this point be the better super power. I'm not sure how that can happen at this point or even if a stronger EU would be good for the member states but it would be hell of a better thing for the world.
- ethanbond 4y agoYeah I tend to agree minus the question of whether it could be the superpower. There’s an argument to be made that the EU was able to build the society that it has largely because of NATO (read: US) protection. IMO the Ukraine response has been pretty clear validation of this. The US has dumped far more resources into Ukraine than the EU has despite, obviously, the land army being zero threat to the US and existentially threatening to EU countries.
- squarefoot 4y agoMost of the EU depends on Russian oil, gas and wheat; we're slowly building independence from Russia, but it takes time. In the meantime, sanctions are slowly consuming Russia's economy and their ability to pump resources into their military; but they require time as well.
- hollywood_court 4y agoI agree. The US has regressed too much and there are many amongst us that wish to see it regress further. We have no place telling anyone else in the world how to live or how to govern. We can’t even educate or provide healthcare to our own. We’d rather throw people in prison than provide them with the basics required to be successful. The outlook becomes even worse when you look at our treatment of women and minorities.
- belter 4y agoThe EU as a super power, would prioritize the dangers of Greek unpacked Olive oil and Cookie consent Modal windows...
- 4y ago
- cjbgkagh 4y agoI’d go further and suggest the US is only preferable so long as viable alternatives exist and without the other options (aka bad guys) the US would devolve into an authoritarian dystopia.
- ethanbond 4y agoYeah this seems compelling, though it’s odd that probably the largest steps toward authoritarianism have been in direct response to “bad guys” (real or imagined)?
- cjbgkagh 4y agoIn my opinion states slowly devolve into authoritarianism anyway and will give whatever reason suites them. Hence the expression “the tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants.” - Thomas Jefferson. Without opposition the state will no longer need excuses and simply impose what it wishes.
- somenameforme 4y agoOn the chance you have not, I'd highly recommend reading Plato's "Republic". If you're short of time, this [1] is "book" (more like chapter) 8. The section from "And democracy has her own good, of which the insatiable desire brings her to dissolution?" and onward is unbelievable. Aside from the language and handful of references to values that have changed quite substantially, one could easily dismiss it all as an edgelord writing an uninspired metaphor with hindsight of recent events, down to the exact roles and actions. But the words take on a different meaning altogether having been written 2,400 years ago! It was this book that made me realize the old saying of history repeating itself was not in the sort of vague allegory that I once believed, but in very specific repeated actions in very specific orders - that keep repeating, separated by millennia. In an odd way it offers peace of mind. The world is not headed towards some unprecedented era of chaos. Instead the era we all grew up in (at least within the developed world), one of peace and relative stability, is what was unprecedented. [1] - http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/republic.9.viii.html http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/republic.9.viii.html
- pwinnski 4y agoI think the assumption that the US is a preferable superpower--likely true at one point--is what led to the US behaving increasingly badly, taking the wrong side of those trade-offs, to the point that I can think of several candidates I would prefer to the US as a world superpower--including no world superpower at all! There aren't many that are always good, or always bad, but it's naive to suggest that "there aren't good guys or bad guys." No matter where in the world you are, you're in no danger of being shot by the Swiss government. That's a statement that's not true of the US, even in the US!
- justinator 4y agoGood guys or bad guys we all live under the threat of total nuclear annihilation at any moment - of which the US has been at the forefront of advancement from day 1. Helluva Pandora’s Box.
- solveit 4y ago> I can think of several candidates I would prefer to the US as a world superpower--including no world superpower at all! No, you really really don't want this. I don't know what utopian partnership of nations you have in mind, but what you will get is World War 1 remastered.
- Bakary 4y agoThe previous US President is currently being investigated for leaking nuclear secrets. During his tenure, he went from being a reality TV star to having control over the most sophisticated nuclear arsenal in the world, with a system expressly designed to enable the President to have unilateral control over the launching of nuclear weapons.[0] Currently, a large portion of the voting age US citizenry no longer believes in the peaceful transition of power. The highest instance of the US judicial system is under the control of specific authoritarian and religious elements for the foreseeable future. We can't know how the US will evolve next, but the picture doesn't seem really rosy at all. We don't know when the next reality TV star or populist politician will take control there, or which ideological movement will capture the institutions in the next few years. Given the country's history of intervening in other nations, we can only guess at what the consequences would then be for the rest of the world. Given all of this, having no superpower would seem preferable. [0]http://blog.nuclearsecrecy.com/2016/11/18/the-president-and-the-bomb/ http://blog.nuclearsecrecy.com/2016/11/18/the-president-and-...
- rhexs 4y ago
- hollywood_court 4y agoI didn’t know ad hominem attacks were allowed here.
- dang 4y agoWe've banned this account for repeatedly breaking the site guidelines. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. They're here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- pmarreck 4y agoI spent a little time researching this. While the CIA did do some influential things, it seems like most of the damage was caused from within... what the CIA did was tantamount to leaning on the Tower of Pisa until it toppled
- aaaaaaaaata 4y agoHopefully they never decide to.