6 ms·

San Francisco's Postwar Sex District (2006)

45 points by samclemens 4y ago

paisawalla 4y ago
[flagged]
- pmoriarty 4y ago
  From the HN guidelines[1]: "Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something. "Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. It tramples curiosity "Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith. "Eschew flamebait." [1] - https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - paisawalla 4y ago
    This article is poorly/un- sourced, and ham-handedly forces the class-oppression dynamics in defiance of obvious alternative explanations. This is why it doesn't even attempt to seriously explore causes of popular opposition to open and active red light districts, but just broad brush paints them as products of either puritanism or corruption. It's an insubstantial article and I don't see much there to respond to, frankly. > Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. It tramples curiosity This article is on HN only for such a reason. There are many better treatments of the history of the Barbary Coast neighborhood, if that's of interest.
    - benreesman 4y ago
      As a protip, assertions like “X is poorly footnoted” that are themselves completely lacking in any links or references or footnotes bum me and a lot of other users out. I would be fascinated to read a substantive contrary viewpoint that clarifies inaccuracies or highlights controversial assertions in TFA, because I don’t know how accurate it is. Write that!
      - paisawalla 4y ago
        Sure, but apart from a rebuttal, it's also a valid critique to simply point out that this is a structurally bad article which insults the intelligence of the reader, without responding to the content. The entire field could be occupied by historians who only believe that class dynamics explain every phenomenon -- such that there's no contrary sources to provide -- and it still wouldn't make it an accurate or acceptable historical essay. Here's merely one (of many) better articles that explains why people of San Francisco, than as now, might not favor having an openly lawless neighborhood in their city: https://theculturetrip.com/north-america/usa/california/articles/a-brief-and-bloody-history-of-sfs-barbary-coast/ https://theculturetrip.com/north-america/usa/california/arti...
        benreesman 4y ago
        So I thank you for the reference and it was also an interesting read. But… as a relatively disinterested observer I feel compelled to point out that the link you provided is at least as loosely footnoted and uses at least as much (if not probably more) charged language. It has the word “Bloody” in the title. TFA is clearly written by someone who believes that prostitution is not inherently bad, bordering on a tacit endorsement of the practice. To its credit it doesn’t use language like “unfortunate men seduced by the temptations of…” If I missed it please correct me, but I didn’t find anything like: “Having been seduced by prostitutes affiliated with the Sydney Ducks, the unfortunate men who entered these brothels…” or “den of violence and vice” or “Gone were the scheming criminals and overarching sense of moral decay”. It’s a bit much with the purple prose about scheming this and degenerate that. It’s only my opinion, but I don’t really see any controversy over which of these things is a relatively sober précis with a subtle but detectable slant, and which is a breathless tale of sin and lawlessness.
        shzusnwxbwj 4y ago
    - chockablock 4y ago
      As it says at the top of the page, this article is basically a precis of a journal article, which--hurrah! is on Sci-hub: https://sci-hub.se/https://doi.org/10.1177/0096144205282713 https://sci-hub.se/https://doi.org/10.1177/0096144205282713 . As you'd expect that article seems to be better sourced and has citations. Your critique of the posted article as being part of an ideological battle advancing class oppression dynamics seems overblown to me. This particular article reads like museum-pamphlet history to me.
akira2501 4y ago
If the "sexual economy" is so rich, why aren't there any rich and retired prostitutes? This article seems to walk right over the problems that are endemic to that "industry" in an effort to paint it in an acceptable light. It then claims, without reference, that the VCR was a market replacement for physical sexual encounters. It goes on to ignore that AIDS was a health epidemic related to these sexual encounters, and that when the seedy operators are finally taken out of an area the real estate values increase. It seems to me to be trying to out of it's way to flatly ignore the human cost of these "sexual markets," where the profit comes _from_ and where it ultimately _goes_. I'm left wondering: What value is this essay supposed to have to this particular forum?
- ruined 4y ago
  >If the "sexual economy" is so rich, why aren't there any rich and retired prostitutes? there are, they just aren't public about it because it's illegal. and, a large number transition into other lines of work before they retire, and that's what they end up known for. >It then claims, without reference, that the VCR was a market replacement for physical sexual encounters. It goes on to ignore that AIDS was a health epidemic related to these sexual encounters, it's speaking specifically about pornographic theaters, which VCRs obviously compete with. AIDS is mentioned immediately in the next sentence
  - tptacek 4y ago
    That seems like a just-so story; plenty of sex workers are extraordinarily public about their work, legal and otherwise; why is it just the millionaires who are hiding? Is this meant to be an IRS thing?
    - thatguy0900 4y ago
      There is plenty of young woman publicly getting amazingly wealthy off of only fans and what is effectively softcore porn on twitch. They retire into obscurity as well when they start loosing their youthful good looks.
- 4y ago
varelse 4y ago
Legalize it all and regulate it to protect sex workers. Make pimps and their equivalents obsolete. It would be better if we could provide better options to those who end up turning to sex work, but that's crazy talk. So let them make the best of a crappy situation that most Americans seem to favor them being in instead of punishing them for not being born rich. Come on guys you can vote this one down, you just know you can vote this one down. If you even see this one, please vote this one down. I need 2,979 more down votes.
- pstuart 4y ago
  What HN needs is an YC entrant to do AirBnB for sex workers -- and how to remove "middle management" from the equation.
  - refurb 4y ago
    Exactly. The VCs walk away wealthy and the providers end up taking home 20% of the money.
  - pjc50 4y ago
    It was called Backpage, and it was banned by FOSTA/SESTA.
    - varelse 4y ago
- BuyMyBitcoins 4y ago
  >”Come on guys you can vote this one down, you just know you can vote this one down. If you even see this one, please vote this one down. I need 2,979 more down votes.” Please don’t do this kind of thing here. I’m not even sure what it is trying to accomplish. The first part of your post would have stood on its own.
  - varelse 4y ago
    [dead]
Animats 4y ago
Here's a look back by some people who were there.[1][2]. Both Danielle Willis and Cintra Wilson took a hard look at the SF sex industry from the inside. Then they teamed up and did a play. [1] https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Another-take-on-The-Party-3118385.php https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Another-take-on-The-Part... [2] https://www.ebar.com/story.php?ch=arts__culture&sc=theater&id=300477 https://www.ebar.com/story.php?ch=arts__culture&sc=theater&i...

45 points by samclemens 4y ago

paisawalla 4y ago

[flagged]

pmoriarty 4y ago
From the HN guidelines[1]: "Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something. "Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. It tramples curiosity "Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith. "Eschew flamebait." [1] - https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- paisawalla 4y ago
  This article is poorly/un- sourced, and ham-handedly forces the class-oppression dynamics in defiance of obvious alternative explanations. This is why it doesn't even attempt to seriously explore causes of popular opposition to open and active red light districts, but just broad brush paints them as products of either puritanism or corruption. It's an insubstantial article and I don't see much there to respond to, frankly. > Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. It tramples curiosity This article is on HN only for such a reason. There are many better treatments of the history of the Barbary Coast neighborhood, if that's of interest.
  - benreesman 4y ago
    As a protip, assertions like “X is poorly footnoted” that are themselves completely lacking in any links or references or footnotes bum me and a lot of other users out. I would be fascinated to read a substantive contrary viewpoint that clarifies inaccuracies or highlights controversial assertions in TFA, because I don’t know how accurate it is. Write that!
    - paisawalla 4y ago
      Sure, but apart from a rebuttal, it's also a valid critique to simply point out that this is a structurally bad article which insults the intelligence of the reader, without responding to the content. The entire field could be occupied by historians who only believe that class dynamics explain every phenomenon -- such that there's no contrary sources to provide -- and it still wouldn't make it an accurate or acceptable historical essay. Here's merely one (of many) better articles that explains why people of San Francisco, than as now, might not favor having an openly lawless neighborhood in their city: https://theculturetrip.com/north-america/usa/california/articles/a-brief-and-bloody-history-of-sfs-barbary-coast/ https://theculturetrip.com/north-america/usa/california/arti...
      - benreesman 4y ago
        So I thank you for the reference and it was also an interesting read. But… as a relatively disinterested observer I feel compelled to point out that the link you provided is at least as loosely footnoted and uses at least as much (if not probably more) charged language. It has the word “Bloody” in the title. TFA is clearly written by someone who believes that prostitution is not inherently bad, bordering on a tacit endorsement of the practice. To its credit it doesn’t use language like “unfortunate men seduced by the temptations of…” If I missed it please correct me, but I didn’t find anything like: “Having been seduced by prostitutes affiliated with the Sydney Ducks, the unfortunate men who entered these brothels…” or “den of violence and vice” or “Gone were the scheming criminals and overarching sense of moral decay”. It’s a bit much with the purple prose about scheming this and degenerate that. It’s only my opinion, but I don’t really see any controversy over which of these things is a relatively sober précis with a subtle but detectable slant, and which is a breathless tale of sin and lawlessness.
        shzusnwxbwj 4y ago
  - chockablock 4y ago
    As it says at the top of the page, this article is basically a precis of a journal article, which--hurrah! is on Sci-hub: https://sci-hub.se/https://doi.org/10.1177/0096144205282713 https://sci-hub.se/https://doi.org/10.1177/0096144205282713 . As you'd expect that article seems to be better sourced and has citations. Your critique of the posted article as being part of an ideological battle advancing class oppression dynamics seems overblown to me. This particular article reads like museum-pamphlet history to me.

akira2501 4y ago

If the "sexual economy" is so rich, why aren't there any rich and retired prostitutes? This article seems to walk right over the problems that are endemic to that "industry" in an effort to paint it in an acceptable light. It then claims, without reference, that the VCR was a market replacement for physical sexual encounters. It goes on to ignore that AIDS was a health epidemic related to these sexual encounters, and that when the seedy operators are finally taken out of an area the real estate values increase. It seems to me to be trying to out of it's way to flatly ignore the human cost of these "sexual markets," where the profit comes _from_ and where it ultimately _goes_. I'm left wondering: What value is this essay supposed to have to this particular forum?

ruined 4y ago
>If the "sexual economy" is so rich, why aren't there any rich and retired prostitutes? there are, they just aren't public about it because it's illegal. and, a large number transition into other lines of work before they retire, and that's what they end up known for. >It then claims, without reference, that the VCR was a market replacement for physical sexual encounters. It goes on to ignore that AIDS was a health epidemic related to these sexual encounters, it's speaking specifically about pornographic theaters, which VCRs obviously compete with. AIDS is mentioned immediately in the next sentence
- tptacek 4y ago
  That seems like a just-so story; plenty of sex workers are extraordinarily public about their work, legal and otherwise; why is it just the millionaires who are hiding? Is this meant to be an IRS thing?
  - thatguy0900 4y ago
    There is plenty of young woman publicly getting amazingly wealthy off of only fans and what is effectively softcore porn on twitch. They retire into obscurity as well when they start loosing their youthful good looks.
4y ago

varelse 4y ago

Legalize it all and regulate it to protect sex workers. Make pimps and their equivalents obsolete. It would be better if we could provide better options to those who end up turning to sex work, but that's crazy talk. So let them make the best of a crappy situation that most Americans seem to favor them being in instead of punishing them for not being born rich. Come on guys you can vote this one down, you just know you can vote this one down. If you even see this one, please vote this one down. I need 2,979 more down votes.

pstuart 4y ago
What HN needs is an YC entrant to do AirBnB for sex workers -- and how to remove "middle management" from the equation.
- refurb 4y ago
  Exactly. The VCs walk away wealthy and the providers end up taking home 20% of the money.
- pjc50 4y ago
  It was called Backpage, and it was banned by FOSTA/SESTA.
  - varelse 4y ago
BuyMyBitcoins 4y ago
>”Come on guys you can vote this one down, you just know you can vote this one down. If you even see this one, please vote this one down. I need 2,979 more down votes.” Please don’t do this kind of thing here. I’m not even sure what it is trying to accomplish. The first part of your post would have stood on its own.
- varelse 4y ago
  [dead]

Animats 4y ago

Here's a look back by some people who were there.[1][2]. Both Danielle Willis and Cintra Wilson took a hard look at the SF sex industry from the inside. Then they teamed up and did a play. [1] https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Another-take-on-The-Party-3118385.php https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Another-take-on-The-Part... [2] https://www.ebar.com/story.php?ch=arts__culture&sc=theater&id=300477 https://www.ebar.com/story.php?ch=arts__culture&sc=theater&i...