3 ms·

And what if the other taxpayers want those books? Because that's what TFA is about. Like i said in another comment, while i haven't read most of the books disc

by orwin 4y ago

And what if the other taxpayers want those books? Because that's what TFA is about. Like i said in another comment, while i haven't read most of the books discussed, I've read 'a modern romance' (Streisand effect mostly tbh), and 'a handmaid's tale'. Those are infinitely less stressful to read than 1984 (especially the last part which still traumatize me 17 years after) or even worse: Howard Buten books, which were so fundamental in my development, but the most stressful read. Of you think those should be banned from school libraries, why not, but please, do we agree this is still banning books. Also the "we put the 'lit' in literature" exposition which shows old, now unbanned classics, Fahrenheit 451 and books burned in public by the local pastor: pure genius.

Dalewyn 4y ago
>And what if the other taxpayers want those books? Because that's what TFA is about. Then they should try convincing more fellow taxpayers, aka voters, to get the things they want passed. In a democracy, majority consensus rules. If you're in a minority and failed to be accomodated by the majority consensus, sucks to be you. >but please, do we agree this is still banning books. Nope, because the books are freely available using your own money. Refusing to have books procured and presented using public funds is not book banning.
- paulgb 4y ago
  > In a democracy, majority consensus rules. I am a fan of democracy but when it comes to a local issue like this, the reality is “consensus of the people who have the most free time rules”. It’s not like there was a vote on whether to ban these books, and my hunch is such a vote would not have passed. > Refusing to have books procured and presented using public funds is not book banning. They literally removed books from shelves and locked them in cabinets, this isn’t just about procurement.
  - Dalewyn 4y ago
    >I am a fan of democracy but when it comes to a local issue like this, the reality is “consensus of the people who have the most free time rules”. It’s not like there was a vote on whether to ban these books, and my hunch is such a vote would not have passed. You aren't a "fan of democracy" if you immediately toss it out because you don't like its results. Also, there has been at least one prior example of a public library losing its public funding[1] after angering voters with their defiant behaviour. [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32364615 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32364615 >They literally removed books from shelves and locked them in cabinets, this isn’t just about procurement. And? You can still buy those books from your favorite bookstore or other retailer if you really want them that badly.
    - paulgb 4y ago
      > And? And it contradicts your implication that this is about procurement/use of public funds. > Refusing to have books procured and presented using public funds is not book banning.
      - Dalewyn 4y ago
        >And it contradicts your implication that this is about procurement/use of public funds. I admit that I have an incomplete understanding of the situation, because as I mentioned earlier the NYT article is obnoxious to read. But what I presume is: A public library removed books from its collection after complaints from the public. That isn't book banning, not the least because the people demanding this are the people themselves. Anyone who really still wants those books can procure them with their own money. Nobody's stopping that. The only thing the public is stopping is using public funds to procure and present those books.
        kthejoker2 4y ago
        Thanks for admitting you have an incomplete understanding. This is not "the people", this is a very small handful of people. In fact, it is a group of people attempting to use policies designed to stop actual pornography from getting into the library to ban LGBTQ and race-centric memoirs, well regarded critical works like Beloved, Lolita, and Maus, and completely age-appropriate books. This is an decidely undemocratic action, and as stated above, it's disproportionately voiced by "people with free time" (including free time to send death threats and show up at school board meetings carrying assault rifles) Deciding whether Anne Frank's diary belongs in a school library should not be a function of who can yell the loudest. Thay is what small children do. If there was an actual vote by "the people" on these works, they would be allowed in a heartbeat. But the reason we don't have votes on books is because minority views have rights, too, and what's in the library is not a popularity contest.
- manicdee 4y ago
  Majority is not consensus. Consensus is not a magical garnish word, it has its own meaning. What you are describing is populism.
- kthejoker2 4y ago
  Actually no, there's this thing called the First Amendment and a bunch of rulings saying just because speech is unpopular is not a sufficient reason to publicly defund or censor it. So there is no "majority consensus" option here. Minority views have rights, too. This is purely in terms of what can be declared "harmful" or "obscene" or "inappropriate" and again, these have to be weighed against the artistic merit and value of the work as a whole (so a single sex scene in a memoir doesn't count.) And yeah it is book banning and has a chilling effect - my duaghter brought a book from home and had it stolen - as we later learned, it was by a teacher who was worried they (the teachers) would get in trouble for it being at the school at all, regardless of how it got there.
lelanthran 4y ago
> And what if the other taxpayers want those books? Because that's what TFA is about. They're free to form their own groups that push for keeping the books. TFA doesn't say whether there's actually a group though[1]. [1] The article writing style is deliberately short on facts and long on emotion. I see this often in New York Times posts, and it's infuriating to read, because to glean two or three facts you have to read all this irrelevant stuff like how the person grew up, what they did as a kid, etc.
- lelanthran 4y ago
  To the downvoters of this comment - why are you disagreeing with the sentiment that people should be able to form groups to petition their government? What's your alternative proposal? It looks to me like the system is working as intended; if something matters to you, form a group and petition the government.

by orwin 4y ago

Dalewyn 4y ago

>And what if the other taxpayers want those books? Because that's what TFA is about. Then they should try convincing more fellow taxpayers, aka voters, to get the things they want passed. In a democracy, majority consensus rules. If you're in a minority and failed to be accomodated by the majority consensus, sucks to be you. >but please, do we agree this is still banning books. Nope, because the books are freely available using your own money. Refusing to have books procured and presented using public funds is not book banning.

paulgb 4y ago
> In a democracy, majority consensus rules. I am a fan of democracy but when it comes to a local issue like this, the reality is “consensus of the people who have the most free time rules”. It’s not like there was a vote on whether to ban these books, and my hunch is such a vote would not have passed. > Refusing to have books procured and presented using public funds is not book banning. They literally removed books from shelves and locked them in cabinets, this isn’t just about procurement.
- Dalewyn 4y ago
  >I am a fan of democracy but when it comes to a local issue like this, the reality is “consensus of the people who have the most free time rules”. It’s not like there was a vote on whether to ban these books, and my hunch is such a vote would not have passed. You aren't a "fan of democracy" if you immediately toss it out because you don't like its results. Also, there has been at least one prior example of a public library losing its public funding[1] after angering voters with their defiant behaviour. [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32364615 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32364615 >They literally removed books from shelves and locked them in cabinets, this isn’t just about procurement. And? You can still buy those books from your favorite bookstore or other retailer if you really want them that badly.
  - paulgb 4y ago
    > And? And it contradicts your implication that this is about procurement/use of public funds. > Refusing to have books procured and presented using public funds is not book banning.
    - Dalewyn 4y ago
      >And it contradicts your implication that this is about procurement/use of public funds. I admit that I have an incomplete understanding of the situation, because as I mentioned earlier the NYT article is obnoxious to read. But what I presume is: A public library removed books from its collection after complaints from the public. That isn't book banning, not the least because the people demanding this are the people themselves. Anyone who really still wants those books can procure them with their own money. Nobody's stopping that. The only thing the public is stopping is using public funds to procure and present those books.
      - kthejoker2 4y ago
        Thanks for admitting you have an incomplete understanding. This is not "the people", this is a very small handful of people. In fact, it is a group of people attempting to use policies designed to stop actual pornography from getting into the library to ban LGBTQ and race-centric memoirs, well regarded critical works like Beloved, Lolita, and Maus, and completely age-appropriate books. This is an decidely undemocratic action, and as stated above, it's disproportionately voiced by "people with free time" (including free time to send death threats and show up at school board meetings carrying assault rifles) Deciding whether Anne Frank's diary belongs in a school library should not be a function of who can yell the loudest. Thay is what small children do. If there was an actual vote by "the people" on these works, they would be allowed in a heartbeat. But the reason we don't have votes on books is because minority views have rights, too, and what's in the library is not a popularity contest.
manicdee 4y ago
Majority is not consensus. Consensus is not a magical garnish word, it has its own meaning. What you are describing is populism.
kthejoker2 4y ago
Actually no, there's this thing called the First Amendment and a bunch of rulings saying just because speech is unpopular is not a sufficient reason to publicly defund or censor it. So there is no "majority consensus" option here. Minority views have rights, too. This is purely in terms of what can be declared "harmful" or "obscene" or "inappropriate" and again, these have to be weighed against the artistic merit and value of the work as a whole (so a single sex scene in a memoir doesn't count.) And yeah it is book banning and has a chilling effect - my duaghter brought a book from home and had it stolen - as we later learned, it was by a teacher who was worried they (the teachers) would get in trouble for it being at the school at all, regardless of how it got there.

lelanthran 4y ago

> And what if the other taxpayers want those books? Because that's what TFA is about. They're free to form their own groups that push for keeping the books. TFA doesn't say whether there's actually a group though[1]. [1] The article writing style is deliberately short on facts and long on emotion. I see this often in New York Times posts, and it's infuriating to read, because to glean two or three facts you have to read all this irrelevant stuff like how the person grew up, what they did as a kid, etc.

lelanthran 4y ago
To the downvoters of this comment - why are you disagreeing with the sentiment that people should be able to form groups to petition their government? What's your alternative proposal? It looks to me like the system is working as intended; if something matters to you, form a group and petition the government.