6 ms·

I dont have a problem with parents wanting school libraries to only have appropriate books. I think the presentation by the media as "book banning" is pretty ri

by cdot2 4y ago

I dont have a problem with parents wanting school libraries to only have appropriate books. I think the presentation by the media as "book banning" is pretty ridiculous.

paulgb 4y ago
Do you have a problem with a religious parent deciding the definition of “appropriate” in the context of their religion, and foisting that belief on kids of other religions or no religion?
- Dalewyn 4y ago
  Haven't really read TFA because I can't be arsed to deal with NYT and ther asinine style of writing, so I'm assuming we're talking about a public school district and its associated public libraries. Being public libraries, I assume there are official channels with which to convey opinions to the powers that be, and proper procedures that must be followed to permit or not permit books from being included in a library's collection. What's more, being public, it's reasonable to assume the libraries are funded in majority from taxpayer money. So personally: If the taxpayers who provide the money for the library are unsatisfied with the library's book selection, file formal complaints, and the books are subsequently removed as applicable, I see no problem. And ultimately: Taxpayers (aka voters) have the ultimate and absolute authority to just rescind funding for public libraries and/or school districts with objectional collections if they refuse to comply with complaints and other such requests and demands.
  - jleyank 4y ago
    Careful these taxpayers don’t decide there’s undesirable people present like they’re deciding there’s undesirable thoughts present. That never turns out too well: https://www.ushmm.org/collections/bibliography/1933-book-burnings https://www.ushmm.org/collections/bibliography/1933-book-bur.... Protect freedom so as to avoid being one left standing when the music pauses. Cue Pink Floyd.
  - orwin 4y ago
    And what if the other taxpayers want those books? Because that's what TFA is about. Like i said in another comment, while i haven't read most of the books discussed, I've read 'a modern romance' (Streisand effect mostly tbh), and 'a handmaid's tale'. Those are infinitely less stressful to read than 1984 (especially the last part which still traumatize me 17 years after) or even worse: Howard Buten books, which were so fundamental in my development, but the most stressful read. Of you think those should be banned from school libraries, why not, but please, do we agree this is still banning books. Also the "we put the 'lit' in literature" exposition which shows old, now unbanned classics, Fahrenheit 451 and books burned in public by the local pastor: pure genius.
    - Dalewyn 4y ago
      >And what if the other taxpayers want those books? Because that's what TFA is about. Then they should try convincing more fellow taxpayers, aka voters, to get the things they want passed. In a democracy, majority consensus rules. If you're in a minority and failed to be accomodated by the majority consensus, sucks to be you. >but please, do we agree this is still banning books. Nope, because the books are freely available using your own money. Refusing to have books procured and presented using public funds is not book banning.
      - paulgb 4y ago
        > In a democracy, majority consensus rules. I am a fan of democracy but when it comes to a local issue like this, the reality is “consensus of the people who have the most free time rules”. It’s not like there was a vote on whether to ban these books, and my hunch is such a vote would not have passed. > Refusing to have books procured and presented using public funds is not book banning. They literally removed books from shelves and locked them in cabinets, this isn’t just about procurement.
        Dalewyn 4y ago
        >I am a fan of democracy but when it comes to a local issue like this, the reality is “consensus of the people who have the most free time rules”. It’s not like there was a vote on whether to ban these books, and my hunch is such a vote would not have passed. You aren't a "fan of democracy" if you immediately toss it out because you don't like its results. Also, there has been at least one prior example of a public library losing its public funding[1] after angering voters with their defiant behaviour. [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32364615 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32364615 >They literally removed books from shelves and locked them in cabinets, this isn’t just about procurement. And? You can still buy those books from your favorite bookstore or other retailer if you really want them that badly.
- makomk 4y ago
  Any definition of "approprite" is going to be in the context of some set of moral beliefs. Why should we treat religious ones differently than secular ones? For example, there's a secular set of beliefs held by all the righteous Twitter users that have had massive effects on what books are in school libraries or that we're even allowed to buy, why should that be any more acceptable because they're secular in nature? I know that the people pushing those beliefs consider them the one true, correct set of moral beliefs that every right-thinking person should hold - so much so thatt they reject the idea of naming them, because that would suggest there could be other correct beliefs. That's not very convincing to anyone who doesn't already share their beliefs though (especially given how often and quickly they shift).
  - paulgb 4y ago
    > Why should we treat religious ones differently than secular ones? We shouldn’t, that’s my point. I’m not sure what you’re referring to, but if there were secular groups trying to ban books I’d feel the same way.
albertopv 4y ago
I'm a parent, what if these books don't bother me and I want them to stay? Who decide what is appropriate? First they came for the books they thought not appropriate...
- SlickNixon 4y ago
  > first they came... If they "came for" all the books in a particular library, you (as a parent) could check the book you wanted out from another library, or buy it from a bookstore, or download it from a sketchy drive link you find on google, or recover it from an airdrop of literary material dropped into your occupied zone. These books are "banned" in the same way that Starbucks red cups are "banned" in July.
  - halfmatthalfcat 4y ago
    With opinions like these, it's hard to not see how the American experiment is slowly rotting from the inside out.
    - Dalewyn 4y ago
    - SlickNixon 4y ago
      No. The verbiage "banned" is disingenous and you know it. Like "defund Planned Parenthood" vs. "defund the police"* it's just word games. *picking a side here will be left as an exercise to the reader
      - trinovantes 4y ago
        > If they "came for" all the books in a particular library The "came for" was a reference to the holocaust [1]. It starts with books in this library but OP was implying these people will escalate to a total book ban. And when books are burned, humans will soon follow [2]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_... [2] https://www.facinghistory.org/resource-library/where-they-burn-books https://www.facinghistory.org/resource-library/where-they-bu...
that_guy_iain 4y ago
Parents can want only appropriate books. But parents getting to decide what is and what is not appropriate for all children isn't something we should strive for. Some parents think books on sexual health are not appropriate, others think books on race relations are not appropriate, some think books speaking badly about Trump's presidency are not appropriate while books that speak positively on his presidency are. Why should one parent's opinions affect another parent's children? It is rather concerning to many people that some people want to decide what children can and can not be taught or allowed to find out about.
- Dalewyn 4y ago
  >Why should one parent's opinions affect another parent's children? When you start dealing with public institutions, aka Other Peoples' Monies(tm), you don't get to say your way or the highway, one way or another. Anyone is welcome to make their own private school and library as they see fit with their own private money and time. But if you are going to peruse public schools and libraries, opinions from various people (namely the taxpayers, aka voters) have to be gathered and reconciled into a final consensus which may or may not be to your liking.
  - that_guy_iain 4y ago
    At which point, it should be something governed by elected officals and not random people who have opinions. And what we're often seeing is random people at various levels of non-elected roles deciding what is and what is not acceptable speech within a school system.
  - nobody9999 4y ago
    >When you start dealing with public institutions, aka Other Peoples' Monies(tm), you don't get to say your way or the highway, one way or another. Right, so why are you defending folks who are saying "my way or the highway" by denying access to books? If they don't want their children to read such books, then they should, you know, parent and know what their kids are up to, not force their beliefs on everyone else.
orwin 4y ago
Okay, if you want to remove books about farts in the kids section (and books about how to get dressed, those are super offensive), why not. But what is appropriate for teens? Because 1984 is way more traumatizing than a Modern romance or Heavy. The last part, with the psychological torture and mind control? Inappropriate, we should remove it from school libraries and stop the book just before the arrestation. Re-edit the book without the last part, which isn't the part we use to attack our political opponents anyway, we will still be able to misuse the word novlang. Name it "appropriate 1984" and put it back on the shelf. I remember I couldn't eat for a day after i read about the arrestation and the subsequent torture in the book, at 14. Remove that part for teenagers please, its safer. And appropriate.
- jleyank 4y ago
  Forced positive thinking. Double plus good.
Waterluvian 4y ago
Be sure to imagine a world where someone with very very different opinions than yours is the one who decides what “appropriate” is.
- lelanthran 4y ago
  > Be sure to imagine a world where someone with very very different opinions than yours is the one who decides what “appropriate” is. I assume poster is already living in that world, where what is appropriate is decided by people with very different opinions.
- tomohawk 4y ago
  - nosianu 4y ago
    > School employees should not get to silence what parents are saying by their cry bullying. You reversed what is actually happening. It is the parents who want to silence the teachers, and the books. The parents can say anything they want. You omit that they want a lot more than just being able to say it.
    - tomohawk 4y ago
      No, NYT reversed what is actually going on. This is the government trying to silence parents. The school is a government entity, and has the power associated with being part of the government. When the parents object, its a bit rich for the government to say that their rights are being infringed by uppity parents.
      - kthejoker2 4y ago
        Can you at least have the humility to quit pretending to represent "parents" as a monolithic group? I'm a Texan, I'm a parent with 4 kids in school, I think your side is ridiculously fascist.
  - 4y ago
nl 4y ago
This was a public (not school) library. And they were children's books, written to be appropriate for children: “Larry the Farting Leprechaun,” “Gary the Goose and His Gas on the Loose,” “Freddie the Farting Snowman” and “Harvey the Heart Had Too Many Farts,” along with “My Butt Is So Noisy!” and “I Broke My Butt!” If someone doesn't want their 5 year old to read about farts, then don't borrow the books. If someone else wants their children to enjoy reading funny books let them.
- TrueGeek 4y ago
  And the parents that don’t want their kids reading “Ruby Bridges Goes to School” certainly have their own agenda that says quite a bit about America. If the school / library bans the book and the answer is “if you want YOUR kid to read it buy it yourself” then now we’ve got the problem of the next generation growing up with some kids learning only half of our history.
nobody9999 4y ago
Except TFA isn't about school libraries. It's about public libraries.
vic-traill 4y ago
The parents are responsible for what their child reads. To me, that doesn't translate to defining what other parent's children get to read. If some folks think fart/butt books are not appropriate for their children, that's fine. They should tell their kids that, and follow up to make sure the child's behaviour reflects that view. [Edit: fixed typo]

by cdot2 4y ago

I dont have a problem with parents wanting school libraries to only have appropriate books. I think the presentation by the media as "book banning" is pretty ridiculous.

paulgb 4y ago

Do you have a problem with a religious parent deciding the definition of “appropriate” in the context of their religion, and foisting that belief on kids of other religions or no religion?

Dalewyn 4y ago
Haven't really read TFA because I can't be arsed to deal with NYT and ther asinine style of writing, so I'm assuming we're talking about a public school district and its associated public libraries. Being public libraries, I assume there are official channels with which to convey opinions to the powers that be, and proper procedures that must be followed to permit or not permit books from being included in a library's collection. What's more, being public, it's reasonable to assume the libraries are funded in majority from taxpayer money. So personally: If the taxpayers who provide the money for the library are unsatisfied with the library's book selection, file formal complaints, and the books are subsequently removed as applicable, I see no problem. And ultimately: Taxpayers (aka voters) have the ultimate and absolute authority to just rescind funding for public libraries and/or school districts with objectional collections if they refuse to comply with complaints and other such requests and demands.
- jleyank 4y ago
  Careful these taxpayers don’t decide there’s undesirable people present like they’re deciding there’s undesirable thoughts present. That never turns out too well: https://www.ushmm.org/collections/bibliography/1933-book-burnings https://www.ushmm.org/collections/bibliography/1933-book-bur.... Protect freedom so as to avoid being one left standing when the music pauses. Cue Pink Floyd.
- orwin 4y ago
  And what if the other taxpayers want those books? Because that's what TFA is about. Like i said in another comment, while i haven't read most of the books discussed, I've read 'a modern romance' (Streisand effect mostly tbh), and 'a handmaid's tale'. Those are infinitely less stressful to read than 1984 (especially the last part which still traumatize me 17 years after) or even worse: Howard Buten books, which were so fundamental in my development, but the most stressful read. Of you think those should be banned from school libraries, why not, but please, do we agree this is still banning books. Also the "we put the 'lit' in literature" exposition which shows old, now unbanned classics, Fahrenheit 451 and books burned in public by the local pastor: pure genius.
  - Dalewyn 4y ago
    >And what if the other taxpayers want those books? Because that's what TFA is about. Then they should try convincing more fellow taxpayers, aka voters, to get the things they want passed. In a democracy, majority consensus rules. If you're in a minority and failed to be accomodated by the majority consensus, sucks to be you. >but please, do we agree this is still banning books. Nope, because the books are freely available using your own money. Refusing to have books procured and presented using public funds is not book banning.
    - paulgb 4y ago
      > In a democracy, majority consensus rules. I am a fan of democracy but when it comes to a local issue like this, the reality is “consensus of the people who have the most free time rules”. It’s not like there was a vote on whether to ban these books, and my hunch is such a vote would not have passed. > Refusing to have books procured and presented using public funds is not book banning. They literally removed books from shelves and locked them in cabinets, this isn’t just about procurement.
      - Dalewyn 4y ago
        >I am a fan of democracy but when it comes to a local issue like this, the reality is “consensus of the people who have the most free time rules”. It’s not like there was a vote on whether to ban these books, and my hunch is such a vote would not have passed. You aren't a "fan of democracy" if you immediately toss it out because you don't like its results. Also, there has been at least one prior example of a public library losing its public funding[1] after angering voters with their defiant behaviour. [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32364615 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32364615 >They literally removed books from shelves and locked them in cabinets, this isn’t just about procurement. And? You can still buy those books from your favorite bookstore or other retailer if you really want them that badly.
makomk 4y ago
Any definition of "approprite" is going to be in the context of some set of moral beliefs. Why should we treat religious ones differently than secular ones? For example, there's a secular set of beliefs held by all the righteous Twitter users that have had massive effects on what books are in school libraries or that we're even allowed to buy, why should that be any more acceptable because they're secular in nature? I know that the people pushing those beliefs consider them the one true, correct set of moral beliefs that every right-thinking person should hold - so much so thatt they reject the idea of naming them, because that would suggest there could be other correct beliefs. That's not very convincing to anyone who doesn't already share their beliefs though (especially given how often and quickly they shift).
- paulgb 4y ago
  > Why should we treat religious ones differently than secular ones? We shouldn’t, that’s my point. I’m not sure what you’re referring to, but if there were secular groups trying to ban books I’d feel the same way.

albertopv 4y ago

I'm a parent, what if these books don't bother me and I want them to stay? Who decide what is appropriate? First they came for the books they thought not appropriate...

SlickNixon 4y ago
> first they came... If they "came for" all the books in a particular library, you (as a parent) could check the book you wanted out from another library, or buy it from a bookstore, or download it from a sketchy drive link you find on google, or recover it from an airdrop of literary material dropped into your occupied zone. These books are "banned" in the same way that Starbucks red cups are "banned" in July.
- halfmatthalfcat 4y ago
  With opinions like these, it's hard to not see how the American experiment is slowly rotting from the inside out.
  - Dalewyn 4y ago
  - SlickNixon 4y ago
    No. The verbiage "banned" is disingenous and you know it. Like "defund Planned Parenthood" vs. "defund the police"* it's just word games. *picking a side here will be left as an exercise to the reader
    - trinovantes 4y ago
      > If they "came for" all the books in a particular library The "came for" was a reference to the holocaust [1]. It starts with books in this library but OP was implying these people will escalate to a total book ban. And when books are burned, humans will soon follow [2]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_... [2] https://www.facinghistory.org/resource-library/where-they-burn-books https://www.facinghistory.org/resource-library/where-they-bu...

that_guy_iain 4y ago

Parents can want only appropriate books. But parents getting to decide what is and what is not appropriate for all children isn't something we should strive for. Some parents think books on sexual health are not appropriate, others think books on race relations are not appropriate, some think books speaking badly about Trump's presidency are not appropriate while books that speak positively on his presidency are. Why should one parent's opinions affect another parent's children? It is rather concerning to many people that some people want to decide what children can and can not be taught or allowed to find out about.

Dalewyn 4y ago
>Why should one parent's opinions affect another parent's children? When you start dealing with public institutions, aka Other Peoples' Monies(tm), you don't get to say your way or the highway, one way or another. Anyone is welcome to make their own private school and library as they see fit with their own private money and time. But if you are going to peruse public schools and libraries, opinions from various people (namely the taxpayers, aka voters) have to be gathered and reconciled into a final consensus which may or may not be to your liking.
- that_guy_iain 4y ago
  At which point, it should be something governed by elected officals and not random people who have opinions. And what we're often seeing is random people at various levels of non-elected roles deciding what is and what is not acceptable speech within a school system.
- nobody9999 4y ago
  >When you start dealing with public institutions, aka Other Peoples' Monies(tm), you don't get to say your way or the highway, one way or another. Right, so why are you defending folks who are saying "my way or the highway" by denying access to books? If they don't want their children to read such books, then they should, you know, parent and know what their kids are up to, not force their beliefs on everyone else.

orwin 4y ago

Okay, if you want to remove books about farts in the kids section (and books about how to get dressed, those are super offensive), why not. But what is appropriate for teens? Because 1984 is way more traumatizing than a Modern romance or Heavy. The last part, with the psychological torture and mind control? Inappropriate, we should remove it from school libraries and stop the book just before the arrestation. Re-edit the book without the last part, which isn't the part we use to attack our political opponents anyway, we will still be able to misuse the word novlang. Name it "appropriate 1984" and put it back on the shelf. I remember I couldn't eat for a day after i read about the arrestation and the subsequent torture in the book, at 14. Remove that part for teenagers please, its safer. And appropriate.

jleyank 4y ago
Forced positive thinking. Double plus good.

Waterluvian 4y ago

Be sure to imagine a world where someone with very very different opinions than yours is the one who decides what “appropriate” is.

lelanthran 4y ago
> Be sure to imagine a world where someone with very very different opinions than yours is the one who decides what “appropriate” is. I assume poster is already living in that world, where what is appropriate is decided by people with very different opinions.
tomohawk 4y ago
- nosianu 4y ago
  > School employees should not get to silence what parents are saying by their cry bullying. You reversed what is actually happening. It is the parents who want to silence the teachers, and the books. The parents can say anything they want. You omit that they want a lot more than just being able to say it.
  - tomohawk 4y ago
    No, NYT reversed what is actually going on. This is the government trying to silence parents. The school is a government entity, and has the power associated with being part of the government. When the parents object, its a bit rich for the government to say that their rights are being infringed by uppity parents.
    - kthejoker2 4y ago
      Can you at least have the humility to quit pretending to represent "parents" as a monolithic group? I'm a Texan, I'm a parent with 4 kids in school, I think your side is ridiculously fascist.
- 4y ago

nl 4y ago

This was a public (not school) library. And they were children's books, written to be appropriate for children: “Larry the Farting Leprechaun,” “Gary the Goose and His Gas on the Loose,” “Freddie the Farting Snowman” and “Harvey the Heart Had Too Many Farts,” along with “My Butt Is So Noisy!” and “I Broke My Butt!” If someone doesn't want their 5 year old to read about farts, then don't borrow the books. If someone else wants their children to enjoy reading funny books let them.

TrueGeek 4y ago
And the parents that don’t want their kids reading “Ruby Bridges Goes to School” certainly have their own agenda that says quite a bit about America. If the school / library bans the book and the answer is “if you want YOUR kid to read it buy it yourself” then now we’ve got the problem of the next generation growing up with some kids learning only half of our history.

nobody9999 4y ago

Except TFA isn't about school libraries. It's about public libraries.

vic-traill 4y ago

The parents are responsible for what their child reads. To me, that doesn't translate to defining what other parent's children get to read. If some folks think fart/butt books are not appropriate for their children, that's fine. They should tell their kids that, and follow up to make sure the child's behaviour reflects that view. [Edit: fixed typo]