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I have land in City of Monterey that I have not been allowed to do any construction on because there's a moratorium on new water meter issuances. (Update: One c

I have land in City of Monterey that I have not been allowed to do any construction on because there's a moratorium on new water meter issuances. (Update: One cannot get approved for new construction without a water meter.) I am still required to pay full property tax on it each year. If anyone has advice on how I can go about growing a community of people in a similar predicament to eventually engineer a class action suit against the county govt.[1], please share in a reply to this post. (Paging: Peter Thiel.) [1] on the theory: if you're charging me property tax, then give me a water meter just like my neighbor has. And if I can't do anything productive with this land, then give me a huge discount on the property tax. (I'm not even allowed to park a travel-trailer on it for more than 2 days at a time.) ------------- Edit: Water Meter Waiting List (there are people on there waiting since 2003 for a water meter): https://monterey.org/Document%20Center/CommDev/Planning/Water-Allocation-Chart.pdf https://monterey.org/Document%20Center/CommDev/Planning/Wate...

isthisthingon99 4y ago
So if you can't install a water meter, can you get it trucked in? Perhaps better than the alternative?
- reactspa 4y ago
  Good point: you cannot be approved for construction without a water meter.
  - mc32 4y ago
    Can you meter your own artesian water?
    - reactspa 4y ago
      No more personal wells are allowed. The existing ones are grandfathered in (that beautiful invention to keep the elites of the past in power: "grandfathering").
      - mc32 4y ago
        Next you’ll tell me you can’t construct a cistern to collect rainwater either. You basically own the land on paper for the privilege of paying taxes but the government reserves fundamental legal rights to what you can do with land you own.
        CamperBob2 4y ago
        Next you’ll tell me you can’t construct a cistern to collect rainwater either. Laws against collecting rainwater are actually pretty common. Yes, land ownership is pretty much an illusion.
        Dylan16807 4y ago
        Rainwater at least is falling on your property. Unless an aquifer is entirely inside your land, it makes plenty of sense not to let you make a well.
    - harambae 4y ago
      You could technically pull water from the atmosphere, if you have enough money to burn https://us.watergen.com/commercial/gen-m/ https://us.watergen.com/commercial/gen-m/
      - reactspa 4y ago
        This is a potential long term solution to Cali's water problems.
  - isthisthingon99 4y ago
    Amazing. I guess the only thing you can do is consider holding and maintaining that land forever. Maybe one of your lineage can build a house on it one day. Edit: oh this just came to mind. A friend of mine related to me he had similar problems building a house and hired a lawyer to essentially bribe the relevant people.
- ericbarrett 4y ago
  Usually the charge is for the hook-up; you bring the equipment. (It may include parts & labor for the public side.) So there's no "hack" to get construction approved if the city or county won't move forward.
fortran77 4y ago
If you have enough resources and time, a "takings" case like this would be an excellent case to try to get in front of our new conservative Supreme Court
- briandear 4y ago
  Definitely. This is a de facto land seizure.
  - zbrozek 4y ago
    I would love to see such a case go in front of the new court. We might get lucky and overturn Euclid.
- reactspa 4y ago
  If anyone wants to use my case to sue the local (city / county) or state or federal government, they are welcome. I see another issue worth suing the city / county of Monterey for: - prefab housing (such as Boxabl) is banned. Paging Peter Thiel.
DoreenMichele 4y ago
Land ownership is a matter of public record. I would start a database or spreadsheet and start looking at land ownership records, try to figure out who else is (likely to be) in the same boat and try to contact them individually. https://california.staterecords.org/propertyrecords#:~:text=California%20citizens%20and%20residents%20can%20obtain%20property%20records,at%20the%20county%20clerk%E2%80%99s%20office%20in%20some%20instances https://california.staterecords.org/propertyrecords#:~:text=....
toast0 4y ago
You really should have a chat with your county assesor. Especially if there's any recent sales of properties without meters that you can use to show the value has dropped. Not being able to build for an unknown time does reduce the value of the land, and your assessment should reflect that. Your assessor should have information about the procedure for contesting assessments. Edit: given that the waiting list includes projects from 2003, I have to imagine this has been an issue since at least then. There must have been some land sales since then which would help one understand the value of vacant land without water rights. If you bought after say 2013, I guess I kind of wonder why? If there's really not enough aquifer water, it seems better to severely restrict growth in the number of fixtures than to let people build more homes that are expected to have insufficient access to water; running out of fresh water is deeply problematic.
- zbrozek 4y ago
  The Santa Clara assessor takes contest filings, chuckles, and throws them away. I'd be surprised if it were different in Monterey.
  - toast0 4y ago
    That's probably the appropriate action for contest filings in Santa Clara county. Either it's a new purchase, the assessment is more or less the purchase price and someone read bad advice on the internet to always contest assessments, or the assessment has been prop 13 limited and contesting it is clearly a joke. In 2010, the Santa Clara Assessor actually lowered my assessment, which I thought was funny, but I bought in 2009, and I guess the market hadn't hit bottom quite yet. That said, if the property use is significantly impaired and the assessor wasn't aware, there's a case to be made. Although, lack of access to fresh water has been an issue in the Monterey Penisula since at least the 1970s, so I'd guess the assessor is aware, and the market should be too.
    - zbrozek 4y ago
      I filed a contest asking for a change of ratio between land and structure value (the assessor set it to approximately 100% land, which is comically wrong) and simply never got a response. I wasn't even trying to change the total.
MerelyMortal 4y ago
What do the laws specifically say? Does it have to be a water meter issued by them? (Can it be a new or used one you buy from wherever?) Or if it just has to be one of their meters, can you find someone who doesn't need theirs and move it?
- reactspa 4y ago
  City of Monterey: Water Availability Status: https://monterey.org/city_hall/community_development/planning/development_projects/water_availability.php https://monterey.org/city_hall/community_development/plannin... Water Meter Waiting List (there are people on there waiting since 2003 for a water meter): https://monterey.org/Document%20Center/CommDev/Planning/Water-Allocation-Chart.pdf https://monterey.org/Document%20Center/CommDev/Planning/Wate... (I guess I should start by contacting everyone on the water meter waiting list...)
  - MerelyMortal 4y ago
    You didn't link to anything that prevents you from getting a meter, just an allocation. What is preventing you from getting a meter without an allocation? Put in a request for "0.00000" if you want to go that route.
    - reactspa 4y ago
      It's certainly worth trying. Eventually.
popcornParade 4y ago
I want to buy land in Monterey, but I am worried about running into this issue. I'd love to chat some time to see if there is anything that can be done about it. My email is virgofth at gmail. Thanks!
- reactspa 4y ago
  In general, if you won't miss the money, I'd say go ahead and buy it. Are you familiar with Nassim Taleb or Mohnish Pabrai? If you are, this is one of those low downside, high upside potential (Taleb) or Heads I win, Tails I don't lose much (Pabrai) situations. - land in Monterey is currently cheap (because of the water meter moratorium) - there's a mostly-complete project that will make adequate water capacity available soon [1] - there's a not-yet-fully-approved project that will make lots more water available [2] - a well-connected insider has told me that water will be available within the next 2.5 years - you can extract cash up to 50% of your investment value via a HELOC - if you do get a water meter at some point, your investment will bag 6x to 10x instantly - it's nice for my ego to get mailers from Sotheby's International Realty asking me if I want to sell my house (they're sending these mailers to everyone, even to people such as myself who don't have an actual house on their land) - I'm serious about engineering a class-action lawsuit against them to not only issue water meters, but to also allow prefab housing (currently banned) such as Boxabl - lastly, just between you and me: Monterey is easily a top-5 location in the USA, if not the world. on. every. metric. there's limited land. and no more land is ever going to be produced. grab it while you still can. [1] https://www.montereyherald.com/2021/09/23/monterey-peninsula-water-officials-reach-agreement-on-cal-am-water-purchase/ https://www.montereyherald.com/2021/09/23/monterey-peninsula... [2] https://finance.yahoo.com/news/california-coastal-commission-deems-application-192700682.html https://finance.yahoo.com/news/california-coastal-commission...
teruakohatu 4y ago
In New Zealand it is not uncommon for rural or semi-rural vacation homes not to have a water supply and rely on water being trucked in and pumped into tanks. Is that an option in your state?
foobarian 4y ago
In other parts of the world I think people would mostly be puzzled why you haven't bribed someone already to take care of this.

isthisthingon99 4y ago

So if you can't install a water meter, can you get it trucked in? Perhaps better than the alternative?

reactspa 4y ago
Good point: you cannot be approved for construction without a water meter.
- mc32 4y ago
  Can you meter your own artesian water?
  - reactspa 4y ago
    No more personal wells are allowed. The existing ones are grandfathered in (that beautiful invention to keep the elites of the past in power: "grandfathering").
    - mc32 4y ago
      Next you’ll tell me you can’t construct a cistern to collect rainwater either. You basically own the land on paper for the privilege of paying taxes but the government reserves fundamental legal rights to what you can do with land you own.
      - CamperBob2 4y ago
        Next you’ll tell me you can’t construct a cistern to collect rainwater either. Laws against collecting rainwater are actually pretty common. Yes, land ownership is pretty much an illusion.
      - Dylan16807 4y ago
        Rainwater at least is falling on your property. Unless an aquifer is entirely inside your land, it makes plenty of sense not to let you make a well.
  - harambae 4y ago
    You could technically pull water from the atmosphere, if you have enough money to burn https://us.watergen.com/commercial/gen-m/ https://us.watergen.com/commercial/gen-m/
    - reactspa 4y ago
      This is a potential long term solution to Cali's water problems.
- isthisthingon99 4y ago
  Amazing. I guess the only thing you can do is consider holding and maintaining that land forever. Maybe one of your lineage can build a house on it one day. Edit: oh this just came to mind. A friend of mine related to me he had similar problems building a house and hired a lawyer to essentially bribe the relevant people.
ericbarrett 4y ago
Usually the charge is for the hook-up; you bring the equipment. (It may include parts & labor for the public side.) So there's no "hack" to get construction approved if the city or county won't move forward.

fortran77 4y ago

If you have enough resources and time, a "takings" case like this would be an excellent case to try to get in front of our new conservative Supreme Court

briandear 4y ago
Definitely. This is a de facto land seizure.
- zbrozek 4y ago
  I would love to see such a case go in front of the new court. We might get lucky and overturn Euclid.
reactspa 4y ago
If anyone wants to use my case to sue the local (city / county) or state or federal government, they are welcome. I see another issue worth suing the city / county of Monterey for: - prefab housing (such as Boxabl) is banned. Paging Peter Thiel.

DoreenMichele 4y ago

Land ownership is a matter of public record. I would start a database or spreadsheet and start looking at land ownership records, try to figure out who else is (likely to be) in the same boat and try to contact them individually. https://california.staterecords.org/propertyrecords#:~:text=California%20citizens%20and%20residents%20can%20obtain%20property%20records,at%20the%20county%20clerk%E2%80%99s%20office%20in%20some%20instances https://california.staterecords.org/propertyrecords#:~:text=....

toast0 4y ago

You really should have a chat with your county assesor. Especially if there's any recent sales of properties without meters that you can use to show the value has dropped. Not being able to build for an unknown time does reduce the value of the land, and your assessment should reflect that. Your assessor should have information about the procedure for contesting assessments. Edit: given that the waiting list includes projects from 2003, I have to imagine this has been an issue since at least then. There must have been some land sales since then which would help one understand the value of vacant land without water rights. If you bought after say 2013, I guess I kind of wonder why? If there's really not enough aquifer water, it seems better to severely restrict growth in the number of fixtures than to let people build more homes that are expected to have insufficient access to water; running out of fresh water is deeply problematic.

zbrozek 4y ago
The Santa Clara assessor takes contest filings, chuckles, and throws them away. I'd be surprised if it were different in Monterey.
- toast0 4y ago
  That's probably the appropriate action for contest filings in Santa Clara county. Either it's a new purchase, the assessment is more or less the purchase price and someone read bad advice on the internet to always contest assessments, or the assessment has been prop 13 limited and contesting it is clearly a joke. In 2010, the Santa Clara Assessor actually lowered my assessment, which I thought was funny, but I bought in 2009, and I guess the market hadn't hit bottom quite yet. That said, if the property use is significantly impaired and the assessor wasn't aware, there's a case to be made. Although, lack of access to fresh water has been an issue in the Monterey Penisula since at least the 1970s, so I'd guess the assessor is aware, and the market should be too.
  - zbrozek 4y ago
    I filed a contest asking for a change of ratio between land and structure value (the assessor set it to approximately 100% land, which is comically wrong) and simply never got a response. I wasn't even trying to change the total.

MerelyMortal 4y ago

What do the laws specifically say? Does it have to be a water meter issued by them? (Can it be a new or used one you buy from wherever?) Or if it just has to be one of their meters, can you find someone who doesn't need theirs and move it?

reactspa 4y ago
City of Monterey: Water Availability Status: https://monterey.org/city_hall/community_development/planning/development_projects/water_availability.php https://monterey.org/city_hall/community_development/plannin... Water Meter Waiting List (there are people on there waiting since 2003 for a water meter): https://monterey.org/Document%20Center/CommDev/Planning/Water-Allocation-Chart.pdf https://monterey.org/Document%20Center/CommDev/Planning/Wate... (I guess I should start by contacting everyone on the water meter waiting list...)
- MerelyMortal 4y ago
  You didn't link to anything that prevents you from getting a meter, just an allocation. What is preventing you from getting a meter without an allocation? Put in a request for "0.00000" if you want to go that route.
  - reactspa 4y ago
    It's certainly worth trying. Eventually.

popcornParade 4y ago

I want to buy land in Monterey, but I am worried about running into this issue. I'd love to chat some time to see if there is anything that can be done about it. My email is virgofth at gmail. Thanks!

reactspa 4y ago
In general, if you won't miss the money, I'd say go ahead and buy it. Are you familiar with Nassim Taleb or Mohnish Pabrai? If you are, this is one of those low downside, high upside potential (Taleb) or Heads I win, Tails I don't lose much (Pabrai) situations. - land in Monterey is currently cheap (because of the water meter moratorium) - there's a mostly-complete project that will make adequate water capacity available soon [1] - there's a not-yet-fully-approved project that will make lots more water available [2] - a well-connected insider has told me that water will be available within the next 2.5 years - you can extract cash up to 50% of your investment value via a HELOC - if you do get a water meter at some point, your investment will bag 6x to 10x instantly - it's nice for my ego to get mailers from Sotheby's International Realty asking me if I want to sell my house (they're sending these mailers to everyone, even to people such as myself who don't have an actual house on their land) - I'm serious about engineering a class-action lawsuit against them to not only issue water meters, but to also allow prefab housing (currently banned) such as Boxabl - lastly, just between you and me: Monterey is easily a top-5 location in the USA, if not the world. on. every. metric. there's limited land. and no more land is ever going to be produced. grab it while you still can. [1] https://www.montereyherald.com/2021/09/23/monterey-peninsula-water-officials-reach-agreement-on-cal-am-water-purchase/ https://www.montereyherald.com/2021/09/23/monterey-peninsula... [2] https://finance.yahoo.com/news/california-coastal-commission-deems-application-192700682.html https://finance.yahoo.com/news/california-coastal-commission...

teruakohatu 4y ago

In New Zealand it is not uncommon for rural or semi-rural vacation homes not to have a water supply and rely on water being trucked in and pumped into tanks. Is that an option in your state?

foobarian 4y ago

In other parts of the world I think people would mostly be puzzled why you haven't bribed someone already to take care of this.