6 ms·

Tech Boot Camps Dangled Well-Paid Jobs. They Didn't Deliver

34 points by aruanavekar 4y ago

dopidopHN 4y ago
I had several coworker coming from various bootcamps in the last 5 years or so. Most were good, motivated junior. I found their training sufficient to execute on well written user story with clear acceptance criteria. They knew there way around Git, bash, a bit of AWS or the like. And one framework. Most were able to get promoted. Often I found them driven and resourceful. They did went thought some Income Sharing Program indeed. One issues I saw first hand : successfully local bootcamps works hand in hand with local branch of BigCorp. Everyone is happy. BigCorps close branch , new graduate struggle to find a job. Went from 90% placement to 30%. ( also from cohorts of 8 to class of 30… ) Curriculum was fine. But I would recommend examining the relationship of a bootcamps with local company.
- dieselgate 4y ago
  Agree with this, seems like the bootcamp grads you work with are devs while the individual written about is in some nebulous tech-adjacent role?
  - SpicyLemonZest 4y ago
    The company Flockjay they're focusing on seems to have always been up front about the fact that they were a tech sales bootcamp. Obviously that doesn't excuse their false promises, but the article is pretty confusing on this point and honestly I think the author might not understand the distinction.
    - dopidopHN 4y ago
      Exactly, my thought was « this is not a bootcamp » The whole salary promises works if the job you are training for actually offer high salary. Idk what tech sales pays, but yeah. A junior dev is better off money wise
- alexalx666 4y ago
  I think it depends on motivations, not all ppl are attending these bootcamps b/c they think programming is the coolest thing eva. Also sadly beeing excited about programming and computers and getting ahead in the 'industry' are different profiles
honkdaddy 4y ago
>The very idea that she, a Black person living in Alabama, could make $75,000 a year in the tech industry after just a 10-week boot camp is what drew Aaryn Johnson into Flockjay. Isn't this where someone with reasonable critical thinking skills could see that something smells very, very fishy? I think the people who run these snake-oil boot camps are jerks, but I also don't have too much sympathy for the people they dupe when what's being promised is so outrageous. I'm not a great chef but I worked in a kitchen as a teenager, so if someone told me I could make $75k cooking after 10 weeks of lessons and I believed them, does that make them a scam artist or me a deserving sucker? In my admittedly shallow opinion, I'd say it's both.
- SpicyLemonZest 4y ago
  Even if she did think something smells fishy, due diligence would show everything was as good as you could expect for a new company. YC graduate, just raised a $11m series A, positive Techcrunch coverage (https://techcrunch.com/2021/01/15/backed-by-marc-benioff-flockjay-pitches-its-sales-training-service-as-an-onramp-to-tech-careers/ https://techcrunch.com/2021/01/15/backed-by-marc-benioff-flo...) - it'd be hard for someone to see all of this without wondering whether it might be a reasonable promise after all.
- rikthevik 4y ago
  That's pretty heartless. People are trying their best to succeed in life. I remember people getting pulled in by DevRy and similar. Places that I thought massively oversold the outcomes people would receive. I don't rate the education that highly, but you can't fault an individual for trying.
- _8j50 4y ago
  Are people believing lies suckers? A lot of people do it and testify that they do make that much and more right? Truck drivers make a similar amount after two weeks training, roughnecks make more with almost no training. Perhaps research an asking questions on some programming forum might help but what critical thinking is missing here?
- faeriechangling 4y ago
lanecwagner 4y ago
As the creator of Boot.dev, I have every reason to dogpile on these articles bashing boot camps. Don't get me wrong - there are plenty of shitty boot camps out there, and I think online platforms are, if not a better alternative, at least a better starting point for many people. That said, there are some good boot camps out there that are doing good work. We do need a better way to protect uninformed consumers from getting scammed though - not sure what that looks like yet.
decafninja 4y ago
My impression was that most boot camps didn’t provide much training on the one skill set critical for getting many entry level SWE jobs - leetcode.

34 points by aruanavekar 4y ago

I had several coworker coming from various bootcamps in the last 5 years or so. Most were good, motivated junior. I found their training sufficient to execute on well written user story with clear acceptance criteria. They knew there way around Git, bash, a bit of AWS or the like. And one framework. Most were able to get promoted. Often I found them driven and resourceful. They did went thought some Income Sharing Program indeed. One issues I saw first hand : successfully local bootcamps works hand in hand with local branch of BigCorp. Everyone is happy. BigCorps close branch , new graduate struggle to find a job. Went from 90% placement to 30%. ( also from cohorts of 8 to class of 30… ) Curriculum was fine. But I would recommend examining the relationship of a bootcamps with local company.

dieselgate 4y ago
Agree with this, seems like the bootcamp grads you work with are devs while the individual written about is in some nebulous tech-adjacent role?
- SpicyLemonZest 4y ago
  The company Flockjay they're focusing on seems to have always been up front about the fact that they were a tech sales bootcamp. Obviously that doesn't excuse their false promises, but the article is pretty confusing on this point and honestly I think the author might not understand the distinction.
  - dopidopHN 4y ago
    Exactly, my thought was « this is not a bootcamp » The whole salary promises works if the job you are training for actually offer high salary. Idk what tech sales pays, but yeah. A junior dev is better off money wise
alexalx666 4y ago
I think it depends on motivations, not all ppl are attending these bootcamps b/c they think programming is the coolest thing eva. Also sadly beeing excited about programming and computers and getting ahead in the 'industry' are different profiles

honkdaddy 4y ago

>The very idea that she, a Black person living in Alabama, could make $75,000 a year in the tech industry after just a 10-week boot camp is what drew Aaryn Johnson into Flockjay. Isn't this where someone with reasonable critical thinking skills could see that something smells very, very fishy? I think the people who run these snake-oil boot camps are jerks, but I also don't have too much sympathy for the people they dupe when what's being promised is so outrageous. I'm not a great chef but I worked in a kitchen as a teenager, so if someone told me I could make $75k cooking after 10 weeks of lessons and I believed them, does that make them a scam artist or me a deserving sucker? In my admittedly shallow opinion, I'd say it's both.

SpicyLemonZest 4y ago
Even if she did think something smells fishy, due diligence would show everything was as good as you could expect for a new company. YC graduate, just raised a $11m series A, positive Techcrunch coverage (https://techcrunch.com/2021/01/15/backed-by-marc-benioff-flockjay-pitches-its-sales-training-service-as-an-onramp-to-tech-careers/ https://techcrunch.com/2021/01/15/backed-by-marc-benioff-flo...) - it'd be hard for someone to see all of this without wondering whether it might be a reasonable promise after all.
rikthevik 4y ago
That's pretty heartless. People are trying their best to succeed in life. I remember people getting pulled in by DevRy and similar. Places that I thought massively oversold the outcomes people would receive. I don't rate the education that highly, but you can't fault an individual for trying.
_8j50 4y ago
Are people believing lies suckers? A lot of people do it and testify that they do make that much and more right? Truck drivers make a similar amount after two weeks training, roughnecks make more with almost no training. Perhaps research an asking questions on some programming forum might help but what critical thinking is missing here?
faeriechangling 4y ago

lanecwagner 4y ago

As the creator of Boot.dev, I have every reason to dogpile on these articles bashing boot camps. Don't get me wrong - there are plenty of shitty boot camps out there, and I think online platforms are, if not a better alternative, at least a better starting point for many people. That said, there are some good boot camps out there that are doing good work. We do need a better way to protect uninformed consumers from getting scammed though - not sure what that looks like yet.

decafninja 4y ago

My impression was that most boot camps didn’t provide much training on the one skill set critical for getting many entry level SWE jobs - leetcode.