4 ms·

In words of Tim Cook on the last event: "Just buy an iPhone (or a Mac and an iPad)". Making your experience bad on non-Apple devices is part of the design, not

by izacus 4y ago

In words of Tim Cook on the last event: "Just buy an iPhone (or a Mac and an iPad)". Making your experience bad on non-Apple devices is part of the design, not accident.

threeseed 4y ago
I worked at Apple and no one is deliberately making the experience bad on non-Apple devices. They just have a million things they want to do, limited resources and so they simply don't prioritise it.
- manigandham 4y ago
  The multi-trillion dollar megacorporation does not have "limited resources" when it comes to interoperability of such a core security feature.
- soco 4y ago
  Potato, potahto. So they deliberately don't prioritise it.
- amelius 4y ago
  This is still quite bad, just like omitting the truth is a form of lying.
- emptyfile 4y ago
  > limited resources haha, oh really?
- sofixa 4y ago
  Using "limited resources" while talking about Apple is surely a joke, right?
  - threeseed 4y ago
    You should read the Mythical Man-Month. You can't just add unlimited developers to a project and expect it to be productive or sustainable. No different at Meta, Spotify, Netflix etc.
    - harperlee 4y ago
      I don’t see how an extra program built for windows or linux can in any way stall whatever project limits Apple faces for macos. They’re effectively independent projects.
      - massysett 4y ago
        There are only so many competent software developers and managers out there. Managers have limited bandwidth as well. For everything any organization says “yes” to, it’s saying “no” to something else. That’s true even if the organization has a huge cash pile.
      - pwinnski 4y ago
        > They’re effectively independent projects. Unless you care about interoperability, which for a product like this is essential.
        harperlee 4y ago
        Nah not really - there is already a proprietary API in iCloud that they use to synch keys between devices, that will be internally documented.
  - saagarjha 4y ago
    Apple historically runs skeleton teams for everything. The company is all about getting more from less.
- cm2187 4y ago
  The developers of iTunes for windows certainly do. I wrote developers because I assume there is more than one, but I guess that number may be 1 or 0.
  - iggldiggl 4y ago
    I find not having to contend with the break-up of iTunes into a gazillion of separate apps (so far, fingers crossed) to actually be an advantage of using it on Windows these days. That's because I prefer to manage my collection of radio comedy episodes as podcasts [1], and with unified iTunes that's simply a matter of changing the media type of those files to "Podcast" and voila, it just works. On a modern Mac on the other hand, from what I've gathered this is no longer possible, and the separate Podcasts app that has replaced iTunes in that regards only supports subscribing to "real" podcasts, and doesn't allow manually adding additional episodes. (I suppose I'd have to resort to either hacking the local podcast database, or set up a local HTTP server with a fake podcast feed in order to add those files, or just give up on that prospect entirely…) [1] So they don't clutter up my actual music library, to get the listened/unlistened visual indicator, and due to way I'm syncing iTunes with my Android phone, to also get my phone to remember the playback position, too (in iTunes you can enable remembering the playback position for any file, including music tracks, but my Android media player nevertheless only supports this for files synced over as "podcasts").
- izacus 4y ago
  The CEO of Apple just publicly said something that contradicts your working experience. I'll trust him to clearly explain the strategy over your experience.
- saagarjha 4y ago
  Apple product direction is set by execs who buy their entire extended family iPhones and switch between their three HomeKit-enabled houses and driving to work in their CarPlay cars. This biases how they determine value in things, beyond the obvious reasons.
hnbad 4y ago
As a person who isn't in the Apple ecosystem, this has always been what kept me off iOS. If I have an Android device, I can use Linux or Windows (or macOS for that matter) on my laptop/desktop. If I have an iOS device, not using macOS just doesn't make sense and the only way to get a macOS legally is buying Apple hardware. When the Apple watch came out, I was interested to see what Apple brings to the space but my interest was killed when I realized it will for all intents and purposes be an iOS companion device, not a true standalone product. So buying an Apple watch would have meant replacing my phone with an iPhone, which would have meant replacing my laptop with a macbook and my Android tablet with an iPad. On paper there's nothing stopping anyone from using iOS devices and keeping their desktop/laptop on Windows or Linux. But the path of least resistance is buying into the entire Apple ecosystem (including iCloud, iTunes, etc) and getting any non-Apple alternative to occupy any of the slots Apple provides its own options for is an uphill battle (e.g. even when Apple provided a Windows version of iTunes it was notoriously bad, slow and lagging behind). This irks me not only because it means you'll want to replace every digital device and every app Apple provides a stock solution for, you'll also find it nearly impossible to leave because there's no clear migration path if you have come to rely on iCloud, Keynote, Facetime, iMessage, your Apple wallet, your Apple credit card, or even Apple maps. If you want to add any "foreign" device, it will instantly be a worse experience than if you had picked the Apple alternative. Instead you'd have to either go cold turkey or wean yourself off by using alternative cross-platform apps when available (and willingly accepting the worse experience). I think there are plenty of disingenuous criticisms of Apple (especially about their devices being "overpriced" when they're really just "too expensive" compared to equivalent consumer products available with more affordable specs) but I think it's extremely fair to describe their practices as an extreme example of vendor lock-in.

by izacus 4y ago

In words of Tim Cook on the last event: "Just buy an iPhone (or a Mac and an iPad)". Making your experience bad on non-Apple devices is part of the design, not accident.

threeseed 4y ago

I worked at Apple and no one is deliberately making the experience bad on non-Apple devices. They just have a million things they want to do, limited resources and so they simply don't prioritise it.

manigandham 4y ago
The multi-trillion dollar megacorporation does not have "limited resources" when it comes to interoperability of such a core security feature.
soco 4y ago
Potato, potahto. So they deliberately don't prioritise it.
amelius 4y ago
This is still quite bad, just like omitting the truth is a form of lying.
emptyfile 4y ago
> limited resources haha, oh really?
sofixa 4y ago
Using "limited resources" while talking about Apple is surely a joke, right?
- threeseed 4y ago
  You should read the Mythical Man-Month. You can't just add unlimited developers to a project and expect it to be productive or sustainable. No different at Meta, Spotify, Netflix etc.
  - harperlee 4y ago
    I don’t see how an extra program built for windows or linux can in any way stall whatever project limits Apple faces for macos. They’re effectively independent projects.
    - massysett 4y ago
      There are only so many competent software developers and managers out there. Managers have limited bandwidth as well. For everything any organization says “yes” to, it’s saying “no” to something else. That’s true even if the organization has a huge cash pile.
    - pwinnski 4y ago
      > They’re effectively independent projects. Unless you care about interoperability, which for a product like this is essential.
      - harperlee 4y ago
        Nah not really - there is already a proprietary API in iCloud that they use to synch keys between devices, that will be internally documented.
- saagarjha 4y ago
  Apple historically runs skeleton teams for everything. The company is all about getting more from less.
cm2187 4y ago
The developers of iTunes for windows certainly do. I wrote developers because I assume there is more than one, but I guess that number may be 1 or 0.
- iggldiggl 4y ago
  I find not having to contend with the break-up of iTunes into a gazillion of separate apps (so far, fingers crossed) to actually be an advantage of using it on Windows these days. That's because I prefer to manage my collection of radio comedy episodes as podcasts [1], and with unified iTunes that's simply a matter of changing the media type of those files to "Podcast" and voila, it just works. On a modern Mac on the other hand, from what I've gathered this is no longer possible, and the separate Podcasts app that has replaced iTunes in that regards only supports subscribing to "real" podcasts, and doesn't allow manually adding additional episodes. (I suppose I'd have to resort to either hacking the local podcast database, or set up a local HTTP server with a fake podcast feed in order to add those files, or just give up on that prospect entirely…) [1] So they don't clutter up my actual music library, to get the listened/unlistened visual indicator, and due to way I'm syncing iTunes with my Android phone, to also get my phone to remember the playback position, too (in iTunes you can enable remembering the playback position for any file, including music tracks, but my Android media player nevertheless only supports this for files synced over as "podcasts").
izacus 4y ago
The CEO of Apple just publicly said something that contradicts your working experience. I'll trust him to clearly explain the strategy over your experience.
saagarjha 4y ago
Apple product direction is set by execs who buy their entire extended family iPhones and switch between their three HomeKit-enabled houses and driving to work in their CarPlay cars. This biases how they determine value in things, beyond the obvious reasons.

hnbad 4y ago

As a person who isn't in the Apple ecosystem, this has always been what kept me off iOS. If I have an Android device, I can use Linux or Windows (or macOS for that matter) on my laptop/desktop. If I have an iOS device, not using macOS just doesn't make sense and the only way to get a macOS legally is buying Apple hardware. When the Apple watch came out, I was interested to see what Apple brings to the space but my interest was killed when I realized it will for all intents and purposes be an iOS companion device, not a true standalone product. So buying an Apple watch would have meant replacing my phone with an iPhone, which would have meant replacing my laptop with a macbook and my Android tablet with an iPad. On paper there's nothing stopping anyone from using iOS devices and keeping their desktop/laptop on Windows or Linux. But the path of least resistance is buying into the entire Apple ecosystem (including iCloud, iTunes, etc) and getting any non-Apple alternative to occupy any of the slots Apple provides its own options for is an uphill battle (e.g. even when Apple provided a Windows version of iTunes it was notoriously bad, slow and lagging behind). This irks me not only because it means you'll want to replace every digital device and every app Apple provides a stock solution for, you'll also find it nearly impossible to leave because there's no clear migration path if you have come to rely on iCloud, Keynote, Facetime, iMessage, your Apple wallet, your Apple credit card, or even Apple maps. If you want to add any "foreign" device, it will instantly be a worse experience than if you had picked the Apple alternative. Instead you'd have to either go cold turkey or wean yourself off by using alternative cross-platform apps when available (and willingly accepting the worse experience). I think there are plenty of disingenuous criticisms of Apple (especially about their devices being "overpriced" when they're really just "too expensive" compared to equivalent consumer products available with more affordable specs) but I think it's extremely fair to describe their practices as an extreme example of vendor lock-in.