6 ms·

A kg of pure lsd would be a site to behold. I don’t know how you could even handle it in any semi-safe way.

by chasd00 4y ago

djhn 4y ago
Chemistry and LSD newbie question: what would make it unsafe?
- xvedejas 4y ago
  LSD is extremely potent at small quantities (dozens of micrograms); exposure to even a small fraction of this (a few grams, say) could be enough to put someone into a non-responsive state for a few days. I don't think it'd cause permanent damage, but still not something to underestimate.
  - kirsebaer 4y ago
    There are reports in medical journals of people accidentally taking hundreds of doses of LSD, and they all were sober within 24 hours.
    - BTCOG 4y ago
      Nobody in this world, is taking "hundreds of doses" of LSD and sober within 24 hours.
      - BTCOG 4y ago
        That case report notes a 10x dose, a 5x dose (these are pretty standard), and a very loose description of snorting 55mg of powdered LSD, which I don't buy. I've seen enough folks eat a sheet or down a 10k mic vial and trip for a week+ to know better. Possibly the dose report was well off, or snorting it and fortunately they didn't get much of it or it wasn't pure LSD-25.
        pessimizer 4y ago
        I also have a lot of doubt about the last one. The first two are light users having strong emotional reactions to amounts that would be an un-notable recreational amount for others. 55mg is nuts. Five hits won't really even make you hallucinate. As old hippies used to tell me in the 90s, pot is 100x stronger than it was in the 60s, and LSD is 100x weaker.
        BTCOG 4y ago
        The linked reported "massive overdose from the 70's case" is also fairly bogus, in my opinion. Look deeper in the report and see the serum levels quoted and one of the highest of one of 7 patients recorded was 26ng/ml? That's effectively like taking 6-7 hits of LSD at approximate dosage of 200 microgram per dose. So what's "massive," and what does that mean then, if that person was comatose off only 6 medium sized doses of LSD, right? That is not anywhere near hundreds of doses.
    - radicaldreamer 4y ago
      Three case reports for LSD overdoses: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/339234169_LSD_Overdoses_Three_Case_Reports https://www.researchgate.net/publication/339234169_LSD_Overd...
      - kvetching 4y ago
        LOL. Overdoses which cure people of their mental illness for 20 years: "first case report documents significant improvements in mood symptoms, including reductions in mania with psychotic features, following an accidental lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD) overdose, changes that have been sustained for almost 20 years."
    - nattmat 4y ago
      In my experience, double the dose lasts the same amount of time, but the peak is more intense. It seems the brain just gets used to the sensation after a while.
    - chasd00 4y ago
      Maybe lsd has changed since the 90s but 2 or 3 hits lasts longer than 24hrs. I don’t see how “hundreds” would be survivable. You would probably just die of exhaustion, there’s no sleeping on lsd and the harder you try fight it the worse it gets.
      - pessimizer 4y ago
        To overshare, 2 or 3 hits wouldn't even hit me hard enough to stop me from doing Anki or reading, except for the relatively short time I'd be peaking. I could definitely sleep on it after the peak (but wouldn't at current prices.)
      - elevaet 4y ago
        If 2 or 3 hits was lasting longer than 24h, there's a good chance it was something other than LSD (like DOM) or you have an idiosyncratic reaction. I've met a couple people who took 100+ hits at once and survived to tell the tale. One fellow took what what was around 1000. The psychological aftershocks took him months to process, but at the time we met he was normal (well as normal as you'd expect from a person brave enough to intentionally ingest that much) and healthy.
      - ada1981 4y ago
        2-3 hits don’t last longer than 24 hours for the vast majority of people. Likely you’ve been taking something else.
    - cwkoss 4y ago
      I think "they all were sober within 24 hours" is too strong of a statement - LSD's half life is 3.6 hours, so after 24 hours blood concentration should be reduced to ~1/64th. Sober within 2-3 days is probably accurate, but I bet anyone who took a 100x dose doesn't feel "normal" for at least a couple weeks, perhaps months - more from PTSD-like effects from the intensity of the experience rather than acute LSD intoxication.
      - deadbeeves 4y ago
        You're talking about the half-life of the molecule in the bloodstream, which is different from the half-life of the intensity of the effects. Serotonin receptors begin to downregulate as soon as the effects start, causing tolerance which lasts (to some extent) for several weeks. Taking a massive dose of LSD, or any other classical psychedelic for that matter, wouldn't significantly extend the trip. The brain just refuses to stay in that state for long.
    - jointpdf 4y ago
      This is a famous case from the 70s: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1129381/?page=1 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1129381/?page=1 Summary: 8 people at a party in SF “accidentally” (having mistook it for cocaine, as one does) snorted at least two lines each of powdered LSD. Somehow, they made it to the hospital 10 minutes later. 5 of them were in a coma by the time they were seen, and 3 had to be intubated. One person had a temperature of 107F + 200BPM pulse. One of the comatose patients discharged himself after 12 hours, and they all seemingly recovered fully. But without prompt medical care…probably not. Conclusion: Do not snort a 1000x dose of LSD.
      - dekhn 4y ago
        I read the paper and I think there's another explanation. They say the seized material was "almost pure" LSD- 80 - 90%. But "almost pure" LSD is 99.9% or more. Seems more likely the material was contaminated with something else that caused the reaction.
- loves_mangoes 4y ago
  A kilogram is a lot, considering LSD is active at microgram doses, although in practice there are labs producing and handling kilograms of it. LSD in powder form is readily available on the black market. Expensive (because you don't just go and ask to buy only 1mg of LSD powder), but not exceptionally unsafe or rare. Now the people who handle Fentanyl and Fentanyl analogues, those probably want to triple check their gloves and mask before putting them on.
  - elevaet 4y ago
    > in practice there are labs producing and handling kilograms of it. Really? I doubt it. 1kg is about 10 million doses (@100ug each). I don't think there are enough people gobbling acid for there to be labs producing on that scale per batch. The cost of making a mistake with a batch that big would be quite high.
    - herbst 4y ago
      You would be surprised but there are reputable online shops who offer exactly that.
      - elevaet 4y ago
        Do you think they actually have that in stock, and if they've ever fulfilled a 1kg order? I don't mean that facetiously, but I am skeptical that it's just a marketing stunt!
        herbst 4y ago
        I am not gonna name drop anyone, but there is one reputable seller that is online for 10+ years and is resold in all colours on all popular platforms. If they announce that bulk stock is available and shortly after the announcement it's sold out. It's either really smart marketing or just the reality of how big the market actually is :) However 1g Gramm is available too, maybe it's more like 1000 people buying 1g? Edit:// having more acid than you could ever need is somewhat a novelty in this scene
- paulmd 4y ago
  it'll go through skin, and if you spilled a bunch on an ungloved hand you're going to be going for a ride, which is of course the origin of the 'bicycle day' itself and the discovery of LSD. of course, many things are not safe on the skin and that's not uniquely dangerous, really
boltzmann-brain 4y ago
somehow I can't reply to djhn's comment, but what makes large amounts of LSD unsafe is how readily it gets absorbed into the blood stream through the skin in amounts that are metabolically massive. Look up "thumbprinting"
- loves_mangoes 4y ago
  That's mostly a myth, it's not very well absorbed through the skin at all. For a thumbprint, you still put your thumb on your tongue and lick it. But it's important to keep in mind that only very rarely have people actually done thumbprints. Those are mostly stories, legends, and artistic works of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take them as fact.
  - effingwewt 4y ago
    Oh it's very well absorbed through the skin, and not a myth at all, and can be easily searched many places online. We would routinely put this to the test. Not only is it absorbed through the skin, but it takes longer to start and end the trip. We would do it on purpose for a longer/more intense trip if we were say camping for the weekend.
    - goatsi 4y ago
      You would solely take LSD by putting it on unbroken skin? Multiple LSD chemists have confirmed this is a myth. An esteemed underground LSD chemist arrested in '05, Donnie Shackelford, is quoted in an unfinished book on black market LSD production by Tim Scully. Here's an excerpt from the interview. >Tim Scully said, "Did you ever get dosed through your skin in the lab". Donnie Shackelford replied, "No, I have accidentally dosed myself while laying sheets, I either touched my eye, or mouth. But the answer to your question is no, you cannot be dosed through the skin. I never wore gloves in any procedure unless lye is used and it isn’t in this procedure. I learned the hard way dropping a flask with 20g of LSD in it. I was extremely upset. I’ve had it all over my hands many, many times. I was there when Dr. Nichols basically called bullshit on the good doctor at Mindstates 60th anniversary". This is the Mindstates talk by David Nichols https://erowid.org/general/conferences/conference_mindstates4_nichols.shtml https://erowid.org/general/conferences/conference_mindstates... >"Another fact: I've made LSD in my lab on many occasions for research purposes, possibly in not so meticulous a manner as Albert Hofmann. Nothing ever happened. I had several graduate students who made LSD as an intermediate for projects. No accidental ingestion of LSD ever occurred. A technician in my lab makes it routinely because we use it as a drug to train our rats. He's learned by experience that he never gets high, nothing ever happens. And yesterday I was talking to Nick Sand, and Nick said, "I made a solution of LSD in DMSO…" -- DMSO (dimethyl sulfoxide) is a chemical that greatly enhances absorption of other chemicals through the skin -- he says, "…I painted it on my skin. Nothing happened." A concentrated solution and nothing happened!"

A kg of pure lsd would be a site to behold. I don’t know how you could even handle it in any semi-safe way.

djhn 4y ago

Chemistry and LSD newbie question: what would make it unsafe?

xvedejas 4y ago
LSD is extremely potent at small quantities (dozens of micrograms); exposure to even a small fraction of this (a few grams, say) could be enough to put someone into a non-responsive state for a few days. I don't think it'd cause permanent damage, but still not something to underestimate.
- kirsebaer 4y ago
  There are reports in medical journals of people accidentally taking hundreds of doses of LSD, and they all were sober within 24 hours.
  - BTCOG 4y ago
    Nobody in this world, is taking "hundreds of doses" of LSD and sober within 24 hours.
    - BTCOG 4y ago
      That case report notes a 10x dose, a 5x dose (these are pretty standard), and a very loose description of snorting 55mg of powdered LSD, which I don't buy. I've seen enough folks eat a sheet or down a 10k mic vial and trip for a week+ to know better. Possibly the dose report was well off, or snorting it and fortunately they didn't get much of it or it wasn't pure LSD-25.
      - pessimizer 4y ago
        I also have a lot of doubt about the last one. The first two are light users having strong emotional reactions to amounts that would be an un-notable recreational amount for others. 55mg is nuts. Five hits won't really even make you hallucinate. As old hippies used to tell me in the 90s, pot is 100x stronger than it was in the 60s, and LSD is 100x weaker.
      - BTCOG 4y ago
        The linked reported "massive overdose from the 70's case" is also fairly bogus, in my opinion. Look deeper in the report and see the serum levels quoted and one of the highest of one of 7 patients recorded was 26ng/ml? That's effectively like taking 6-7 hits of LSD at approximate dosage of 200 microgram per dose. So what's "massive," and what does that mean then, if that person was comatose off only 6 medium sized doses of LSD, right? That is not anywhere near hundreds of doses.
  - radicaldreamer 4y ago
    Three case reports for LSD overdoses: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/339234169_LSD_Overdoses_Three_Case_Reports https://www.researchgate.net/publication/339234169_LSD_Overd...
    - kvetching 4y ago
      LOL. Overdoses which cure people of their mental illness for 20 years: "first case report documents significant improvements in mood symptoms, including reductions in mania with psychotic features, following an accidental lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD) overdose, changes that have been sustained for almost 20 years."
  - nattmat 4y ago
    In my experience, double the dose lasts the same amount of time, but the peak is more intense. It seems the brain just gets used to the sensation after a while.
  - chasd00 4y ago
    Maybe lsd has changed since the 90s but 2 or 3 hits lasts longer than 24hrs. I don’t see how “hundreds” would be survivable. You would probably just die of exhaustion, there’s no sleeping on lsd and the harder you try fight it the worse it gets.
    - pessimizer 4y ago
      To overshare, 2 or 3 hits wouldn't even hit me hard enough to stop me from doing Anki or reading, except for the relatively short time I'd be peaking. I could definitely sleep on it after the peak (but wouldn't at current prices.)
    - elevaet 4y ago
      If 2 or 3 hits was lasting longer than 24h, there's a good chance it was something other than LSD (like DOM) or you have an idiosyncratic reaction. I've met a couple people who took 100+ hits at once and survived to tell the tale. One fellow took what what was around 1000. The psychological aftershocks took him months to process, but at the time we met he was normal (well as normal as you'd expect from a person brave enough to intentionally ingest that much) and healthy.
    - ada1981 4y ago
      2-3 hits don’t last longer than 24 hours for the vast majority of people. Likely you’ve been taking something else.
  - cwkoss 4y ago
    I think "they all were sober within 24 hours" is too strong of a statement - LSD's half life is 3.6 hours, so after 24 hours blood concentration should be reduced to ~1/64th. Sober within 2-3 days is probably accurate, but I bet anyone who took a 100x dose doesn't feel "normal" for at least a couple weeks, perhaps months - more from PTSD-like effects from the intensity of the experience rather than acute LSD intoxication.
    - deadbeeves 4y ago
      You're talking about the half-life of the molecule in the bloodstream, which is different from the half-life of the intensity of the effects. Serotonin receptors begin to downregulate as soon as the effects start, causing tolerance which lasts (to some extent) for several weeks. Taking a massive dose of LSD, or any other classical psychedelic for that matter, wouldn't significantly extend the trip. The brain just refuses to stay in that state for long.
  - jointpdf 4y ago
    This is a famous case from the 70s: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1129381/?page=1 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1129381/?page=1 Summary: 8 people at a party in SF “accidentally” (having mistook it for cocaine, as one does) snorted at least two lines each of powdered LSD. Somehow, they made it to the hospital 10 minutes later. 5 of them were in a coma by the time they were seen, and 3 had to be intubated. One person had a temperature of 107F + 200BPM pulse. One of the comatose patients discharged himself after 12 hours, and they all seemingly recovered fully. But without prompt medical care…probably not. Conclusion: Do not snort a 1000x dose of LSD.
    - dekhn 4y ago
      I read the paper and I think there's another explanation. They say the seized material was "almost pure" LSD- 80 - 90%. But "almost pure" LSD is 99.9% or more. Seems more likely the material was contaminated with something else that caused the reaction.
loves_mangoes 4y ago
A kilogram is a lot, considering LSD is active at microgram doses, although in practice there are labs producing and handling kilograms of it. LSD in powder form is readily available on the black market. Expensive (because you don't just go and ask to buy only 1mg of LSD powder), but not exceptionally unsafe or rare. Now the people who handle Fentanyl and Fentanyl analogues, those probably want to triple check their gloves and mask before putting them on.
- elevaet 4y ago
  > in practice there are labs producing and handling kilograms of it. Really? I doubt it. 1kg is about 10 million doses (@100ug each). I don't think there are enough people gobbling acid for there to be labs producing on that scale per batch. The cost of making a mistake with a batch that big would be quite high.
  - herbst 4y ago
    You would be surprised but there are reputable online shops who offer exactly that.
    - elevaet 4y ago
      Do you think they actually have that in stock, and if they've ever fulfilled a 1kg order? I don't mean that facetiously, but I am skeptical that it's just a marketing stunt!
      - herbst 4y ago
        I am not gonna name drop anyone, but there is one reputable seller that is online for 10+ years and is resold in all colours on all popular platforms. If they announce that bulk stock is available and shortly after the announcement it's sold out. It's either really smart marketing or just the reality of how big the market actually is :) However 1g Gramm is available too, maybe it's more like 1000 people buying 1g? Edit:// having more acid than you could ever need is somewhat a novelty in this scene
paulmd 4y ago
it'll go through skin, and if you spilled a bunch on an ungloved hand you're going to be going for a ride, which is of course the origin of the 'bicycle day' itself and the discovery of LSD. of course, many things are not safe on the skin and that's not uniquely dangerous, really

boltzmann-brain 4y ago

somehow I can't reply to djhn's comment, but what makes large amounts of LSD unsafe is how readily it gets absorbed into the blood stream through the skin in amounts that are metabolically massive. Look up "thumbprinting"

loves_mangoes 4y ago
That's mostly a myth, it's not very well absorbed through the skin at all. For a thumbprint, you still put your thumb on your tongue and lick it. But it's important to keep in mind that only very rarely have people actually done thumbprints. Those are mostly stories, legends, and artistic works of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take them as fact.
- effingwewt 4y ago
  Oh it's very well absorbed through the skin, and not a myth at all, and can be easily searched many places online. We would routinely put this to the test. Not only is it absorbed through the skin, but it takes longer to start and end the trip. We would do it on purpose for a longer/more intense trip if we were say camping for the weekend.
  - goatsi 4y ago
    You would solely take LSD by putting it on unbroken skin? Multiple LSD chemists have confirmed this is a myth. An esteemed underground LSD chemist arrested in '05, Donnie Shackelford, is quoted in an unfinished book on black market LSD production by Tim Scully. Here's an excerpt from the interview. >Tim Scully said, "Did you ever get dosed through your skin in the lab". Donnie Shackelford replied, "No, I have accidentally dosed myself while laying sheets, I either touched my eye, or mouth. But the answer to your question is no, you cannot be dosed through the skin. I never wore gloves in any procedure unless lye is used and it isn’t in this procedure. I learned the hard way dropping a flask with 20g of LSD in it. I was extremely upset. I’ve had it all over my hands many, many times. I was there when Dr. Nichols basically called bullshit on the good doctor at Mindstates 60th anniversary". This is the Mindstates talk by David Nichols https://erowid.org/general/conferences/conference_mindstates4_nichols.shtml https://erowid.org/general/conferences/conference_mindstates... >"Another fact: I've made LSD in my lab on many occasions for research purposes, possibly in not so meticulous a manner as Albert Hofmann. Nothing ever happened. I had several graduate students who made LSD as an intermediate for projects. No accidental ingestion of LSD ever occurred. A technician in my lab makes it routinely because we use it as a drug to train our rats. He's learned by experience that he never gets high, nothing ever happens. And yesterday I was talking to Nick Sand, and Nick said, "I made a solution of LSD in DMSO…" -- DMSO (dimethyl sulfoxide) is a chemical that greatly enhances absorption of other chemicals through the skin -- he says, "…I painted it on my skin. Nothing happened." A concentrated solution and nothing happened!"