12 ms·

I feel the same. I think it’s because it really represents the end of an era. The 20th and early 21st century ushered in unprecedented improvements to quality o

I feel the same. I think it’s because it really represents the end of an era. The 20th and early 21st century ushered in unprecedented improvements to quality of life in Britain but it has felt of late that that has peaked and the country is facing a serious decline: Brexit, the increasingly visible effects of climate change, the aftermath of covid, the possible break up of the union, rising costs of living, recession, possibly even war. The death of Elizabeth II coincides with the end of a long period of stability and comfort and is not only a poignant point in history itself but a marker for a transitional point in history for our country.

ralusek 4y ago
- dang 4y ago
  We've banned this account for repeatedly posting flamebait and unsubstantive comments. That's not allowed here. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. They're here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. (Since someone is now about to accuse me of stealth Brexit sideage—no, this is just about the tiny business of moderating an internet forum, and that is all.) I don't lightly ban a 7-year-old account, but (a) we've warned you many times: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22976700 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22976700 (April 2020) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20912638 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20912638 (Sept 2019) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20477028 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20477028 (July 2019) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19765448 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19765448 (April 2019) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17865589 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17865589 (Aug 2018) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17623237 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17623237 (July 2018) ... and (b) you've broken the site guidelines repeatedly lately.
  - fit2rule 4y ago
    - dang 4y ago
      The idea is to oppress tedious communication so curious communication can flourish. It's impossible to have both. There's a critique of gardeners which argues that nobody should pull weeds, or even label any plant a weed—but I think most people come here for the flowers, and for that you need weed-pulling.
      - worik 4y ago
        > and for that there needs to be a shit-ton of weed-pulling Grateful am I. But mate, you do sound like you need a holiday!
        dang 4y ago
        https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32773032 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32773032
      - fit2rule 4y ago
  - wawjgreen 4y ago
    - munk-a 4y ago
      If you're talking about American free speech your speech is protected from government censorship, not private censorship on a private platform. HN admins really do try to avoid putting their fingers on the scale when it comes to legitimate disagreements but that comment was dead'd for being flamebait and lacking substance - it added nothing of value to the discussion and veered far off topic (much like your comment and my reply do, but thankfully we're in a dead branch of a comment thread so this won't pollute most user's views). HN exists (partially) to surface interesting news and foster discussions of that news - flamebait is never interesting and it doesn't lead to interesting discussions. We of the internet discovered, during the usenet days, that reducing a conversation to a shouting match is boring - so to promote a more healthy dialog HN specifically removes inflammatory comments unless they bring an interesting topic to light (and even then it's just nicer to communicate in a polite manner) - as this is the goal for this private forum it's completely within its right to restrict discussions that go against that goal and restrict users that repeatedly violate that goal. The internet is a large place and there are plenty of other forums that cater to other forms of expression - the first amendment exists primarily to make it illegal for the government to say such places can't exist - it doesn't obligate all places to act in such a manner nor mandate the existence of such places.
- MrMan 4y ago
  the world is a closed system. the illusion of independence is just a lie. Brexit marks the transition of the UK from arguably the most important state in the EU, to a 2nd and then 3rd world country. It is the suicide of a nation due to spite, ignorance, hate, greed, stupidity. Europe needs to be unified. the entire globe needs to be unified. small countries trying to go it alone will be wiped out or impoverished or both.
  - inglor_cz 4y ago
    "the entire globe needs to be unified" How do you want to agree on a common set of values with, say, the Taliban and the CCP? Would you yourself rather live in a giant dormitory with a thousand other people, everyone eating the same breakfast, than in your own house according to your needs and wishes? It is not that different with nations.
blibble 4y ago
during her lifetime the British Empire went from its zenith to its end leaving a trade bloc (Brexit) is hardly notable by comparison
- scott_w 4y ago
  It is when you see Brexit as part of that end.
  - blibble 4y ago
    the Empire ended in 1997 with the handover of Hong Kong before the EU existed
    - ploika 4y ago
      The EEC became the EU in 1993.
    - 4ad 4y ago
      The EU was founded in 1993, and traces its roots back to EEC (1957) and ECSC (1951).
      - blibble 4y ago
        it is quite clear in the Maastrict treaty that the EU was a newly established entity that absorbed the obligations and responsibilities of the former entities (in the same way the United States absorbed the obligations and responsibilities of Great Britain in the 13 colonies) (regardless, I got my dates wrong, I was thinking of Nice...)
        yuppie_scum 4y ago
        Buddy take the L on that comment
    - zxexz 4y ago
      Do you mean the eurozone? The EU as we know it today came into existence (Maastricht treaty). The eurozone was 1999.
isoprophlex 4y ago
You really hit the nail on the head. Watching footage of her inauguration drives home how the world changed during her reign. She lived through the entire crazy exponential increase in, well, everything. May she rest in peace.
foobarian 4y ago
I think humans have evolved to need rulers and hierarchy to look up to to some extent. Look at what happened to Americans -- once the UK royalty was gone it was replaced with celebrity. It's just human nature.
- dfraser992 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - barrysteve 4y ago
    This is one of those comments that won't age well. Reducing evolution and time down to a steady state worldview, doesn't work.
  - educaysean 4y ago
    My guess is that you consider yourself to be a part of that select group of "aware" individuals. How extremely human of you.
  - liamwire 4y ago
    ‘Only this in-group are actual humans’ is dangerous rhetoric. See dehumanisation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dehumanization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dehumanization
- jollybean 4y ago
  The Queen is not a 'ruler' though, she's a figurehead. Which is fully appropriate where it exists. I would be 100% against the US having a 'Constitutional Monarch' but I'm 100% in support of the UK Constitutional Monarchy, given that it has come from their long established culture, nearly a 1000-year-old 'contiguous-ish' institution. FYI in 1258 the Monarch signed documents which required him to 'Confer with Parliament' when changing rates of taxation. That's only 40 years past Magna Carta, and the first reference to 'Parliament'.
  - elcritch 4y ago
    I think the British Monarch could in _theory_ have some political power as parliamentary bills go by the monarch for approval. The Queen always approved them of course. The romantic in me likes to believe the Queen would step in if the British parliament tried passing some truly terrible bill. Basically acting as a last stop gap of human and British sensibility. Though with Queen Elizabeth II gone I'd have less trust in the judgement of a monarch. Part of me does wonder if US politics would've been much different with a ceremonial figurehead. And that'd be a fun alt-history where a great-great-grandchild of George Washington is the ceremonial head of the US government and has to deal with intrigues of Washington politics while just wanting to live quietly on the ancestral Virginian home.
bigfudge 4y ago
Then mourn the social democratic consensus that built that prosperity, rather than the symbol of empire and privilege that it replaced?
- robertlagrant 4y ago
  That's not what built it. Automation and technology and burning fuel did.
  - SyzygistSix 4y ago
    It's not an either/or proposition. The early industrial revolution had automation and technology and burning fuel too.
    - robertlagrant 4y ago
      Indeed. That was the start of the big push of thousands of big and small inventions and commercial progressions that has gradually allowed more and more of the whole world to achieve heights no one could've dreamed of even 100 years ago.
  - bigfudge 4y ago
    No. Statistically, the reason the gp was celebrating their post war prosperity was because the proceeds or automation and burning fossil fuels were much more equitably shared in that period than any other in history.
dfraser992 4y ago
An upvote for you (if I could). I'm American but have lived in the UK for near 20 years. My great-whatever grandfather signed the Declaration of Independence so I'm hardly a royalist... So WTF am I doing living in the UK??? (the NHS etc...) My general sense is that of respect for the Queen as a symbol. She did it right and wasn't a useless numpty like ... oh... all of the rest of them. Primarily nothing but B list celebrities. William and Kate seem fine enough, Harry and Meghan are .. irrelevant except to the nonces who have no actual lives, and let's not discuss Andrew... Hopefully Charles will use the "soft power" he supposedly has to corral the professional sociopaths destroying this country (e.g. wind and solar power, given his supposed environmental leanings) but I don't know.... it very well may be all downhill from now. England (and by extension all of the UK) is destined to become a failed state. Which is why I am looking hard at moving to Scotland (soon to be independent!) or even the EU to get the F out of here ASAP. It really is a transitional point.
- alistairSH 4y ago
  Which is why I am looking hard at moving to Scotland (soon to be independent!) Has there been any real progress towards another referendum on independence? I know SNP still has the lion’s share of seats in Scottish parliament, but what else? As a Scottish ex-pat of sorts (born UAE, to Scottish parents, but raised and educated in the US), I have nostalgic notions of moving to Scotland. Then I remember its dark much of the year and rains a fair bit. Heck, it even snowed in June the last summer I visited (yes, that was up Glenshee, but still).
  - faverin 4y ago
    No one seriously thinks Scotland will leave soon. The energy is moving to a new settlement of the four nations. That will come in the next ten years. We're fine. Edinburgh got loads of tech energy. Glasgow's a massive city with loads of opportunity. We have a large financial sector that needs geeks. Come. We need you. Lived here thirty years now. No regrets. Weather is improving with climate change (ducks).
    - siquick 4y ago
FiberBundle 4y ago
It seems as if you judge the past too positively. The 70s and 80s were also perceived as pretty dark at the time and anything but stable. The sentiment at the time was quite similar to the way you describe the present. You had stagnation in the 70s similar to what is happening today and a general view that the welfare system was losing its viability. The Cold War also became more serious again in the 80s and the geopolitical threats were comparable to today's.
- fullsend 4y ago
  I love the example of ancient texts that decry how the youth don’t listen to their elders any more and the lords are getting stingier with the taxes every season. It’s a universal feeling.
  - agent008t 4y ago
    You mean this quote by Socrates, which was written as Athens was entering a period of (terminal) decline? “The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.” Maybe it is not so universal, but an actual predictor of civilizational decline?
    - withinboredom 4y ago
      > but an actual predictor of civilizational decline? I think it is more of an indicator of overall prosperity, which may, in fact cause civilizational decline. I'm reminded of the mouse utopia[0], and my own family. [0]: https://www.drhpod.com/blog/mouse-utopia https://www.drhpod.com/blog/mouse-utopia
    - Eisenstein 4y ago
      Socrates never said that and he never wrote anything (that has survived, anyway). "QI has determined that the author of the quote is not someone famous or ancient. It was crafted by a student, Kenneth John Freeman, for his Cambridge dissertation published in 1907. Freeman did not claim that the passage under analysis was a direct quotation of anyone; instead, he was presenting his own summary of the complaints directed against young people in ancient times. The words he used were later slightly altered to yield the modern version. In fact, more than one section of his thesis has been excerpted and then attributed classical luminaries." * https://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/05/01/misbehave/ https://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/05/01/misbehave/
rikthevik 4y ago
My understanding is that the late 70s and early 80s in England was a hopeless place. As evidence I submit Alan Moore's introduction to V for Vendetta and Ghost Town by the Specials. - https://slendertroll.tumblr.com/post/66114152363 https://slendertroll.tumblr.com/post/66114152363 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_Town_(Specials_song) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_Town_(Specials_song) "Naivete can also be detected in my supposition that it would take something as melodramatic as a near-miss nuclear conflict to nudge England toward fascism. Although in fairness to myself and David, there were no better or more accurate predictions of our country’s future available in comic form at that time. The simple fact that much of the historical background of the story proceeds from a predicted Conservative defeat in the 1982 General Election should tell you how reliable we were in our role as Cassandras. It’s 1988 now. Margaret Thatcher is entering her third term of office and talking confidently of an unbroken Conservative leadership well into the next century. My youngest daughter is seven and the tabloid press are circulating the idea of concentration camps for persons with AIDS. The new riot police wear black visors, as do their horses, and their vans have rotating video cameras mounted on top. The government has expressed a desire to eradicate homosexuality, even as an abstract concept, and one can only speculate as to which minority will be the next legislated against. I’m thinking of taking my family and getting out of this country soon, sometime over the next couple of years. It’s cold and it’s mean-spirited and I don’t like it here anymore."
- npteljes 4y ago
  Punk and goth also emerged in the 70s, with the UK as a particular hotpot. I don't think that's a sign of economic prosperity.
  - stuartd 4y ago
    Punk was very much not a sign of prosperity, more like stagnancy. Source: was there.
    - gizajob 4y ago
      Would you have preferred more prosperity, but soundtracked only by the Bay City Rollers, Pink Floyd, and Cliff Richard? Or the angry DIY spirit of punk to emerge?
sacrosancty 4y ago
None of those things you mentioned are real or big problems visible at an individual level any more than the problems of previous decades. If nobody told you they'd happened, you'd be enjoying the same stability and comfort as before. Perhaps the problem is how the media presents events, not the events themselves. Without an objective way to measure "badness", all you're doing it reflecting what the TV told you to feel.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
jollybean 4y ago
'Long period of stability' since WW1? WW2? The Cold War? Maybe you're young, but this 'feeling of stability' really has only happened since 1991. I remember before that, and it was very scary living with the Soviet Union and all those countries with nukes pointed at us. Also, the 1960s-1980s wrought huge economic change, as the last phase of major 'Democratic Socialist' changes occurred, desegregation/civil rights in the US along with giant leap in crime, and most of the west moved out of a very chaotic political climate only towards the end of that. 1990-2010 was a bit of a calm period. Also, 'Brexit' is not a net negative thing (I think it's neutral on the whole). The EEC (i.e. trade) is almost all of the benefit of the EU, some of the post EEC i.e. EU artifacts are actually quite a bad thing (though not all of course). Even Euro itself, is probably only 'neutral' in that it has very harsh externalities that are just not obvious. Notably, we have seen a massive failure in the EU to not only protect itself, 100% dependent on US military defence, even in 2020 - but one of the 'root problems' was the EU powerhouse, Germany, abdicating it's defence responsibilities, and selling out the entirety of the EU to Russian energy dependence which put the EU in an existentially weak position vis-a-vis Russia. If the US did not exist, Putin would be dominating the EU via it's vast tentacles (like it is in Hungary, but much worse, and all over). Obviously some nations, like France, Sweden and Finland are quite prepared, but on the whole, it's bad. Europeans are know this, Macron himself has suggested 'something else' for Ukraine and Georgia. It will literally take decades for Ukraine get into the EU, which is nary impossible for any normal country as they cannot maintain a consistent strategic orientation for that long, which speaks to the gigantic bureaucratic complexity of the EU. Instead - UK, Turkey, Ukraine, Finland, Georgia, Switzerland will possibly join the 'expanded' EU (by another name), which will mostly be trade focused. The interesting thing about that however, the other nations, notably Spain, Italy, Greece will definitely start to wonder about 'the grass being greener' in those countries. QE2's death is definitely a kind of geostrategic demarcation, along with the failure of Russia in Ukraine as it's 'last gasp' as a major power, and COVID. The rise of China as well, but that's in phases. This is kind of a WW1 moment. As for the future of the Royals? It's hard to say - some progressives may want to think more 'Republican' but I'm not so sure. We are choking on materialism and people are yearning for authentic things. 'Secular Ideologies' including Socialism and Capitalism have brought us some nice things, but we are fundamentally more hollow. 'De-culturlization' isn't going so well, people are spiritually empty, we lack community. Putting a 'Starbucks on Every Corner' of the world is good for the GDP, but it's woefully lacking otherwise. A trip to the suburubs of Toronto where things are actually technically 'good' from a culturally secular perspective (i.e. peace, jobs, people get along well) ... but you'll find it's a kind of cultural death: absolutely no local culture whatsoever, almost the entire population working for 'local offices' of international firms, nothing to even identify the area as belonging to it's actual nation, culture and values being dictated by the marketing rooms of foreign countries, mostly in the name of selling sneakers and iPhones. That's 'materialism' not true 'prosperity'. It's amazing if you were a poor kid from Hyderabad (i.e. to have material stability), but not so good otherwise. In that context, everything that has cultural authenticity is basically worth more than anything else. Do you know what's exploding in value? Authentic Faberge eggs. As we also realize the value of cultural institutions. Other things, even neat things like iPhones, are ultimately just commodities.
whiskey14 4y ago
This is exactly how I feel

ralusek 4y ago

dang 4y ago
We've banned this account for repeatedly posting flamebait and unsubstantive comments. That's not allowed here. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. They're here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. (Since someone is now about to accuse me of stealth Brexit sideage—no, this is just about the tiny business of moderating an internet forum, and that is all.) I don't lightly ban a 7-year-old account, but (a) we've warned you many times: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22976700 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22976700 (April 2020) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20912638 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20912638 (Sept 2019) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20477028 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20477028 (July 2019) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19765448 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19765448 (April 2019) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17865589 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17865589 (Aug 2018) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17623237 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17623237 (July 2018) ... and (b) you've broken the site guidelines repeatedly lately.
- fit2rule 4y ago
  - dang 4y ago
    The idea is to oppress tedious communication so curious communication can flourish. It's impossible to have both. There's a critique of gardeners which argues that nobody should pull weeds, or even label any plant a weed—but I think most people come here for the flowers, and for that you need weed-pulling.
    - worik 4y ago
      > and for that there needs to be a shit-ton of weed-pulling Grateful am I. But mate, you do sound like you need a holiday!
      - dang 4y ago
        https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32773032 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32773032
    - fit2rule 4y ago
- wawjgreen 4y ago
  - munk-a 4y ago
    If you're talking about American free speech your speech is protected from government censorship, not private censorship on a private platform. HN admins really do try to avoid putting their fingers on the scale when it comes to legitimate disagreements but that comment was dead'd for being flamebait and lacking substance - it added nothing of value to the discussion and veered far off topic (much like your comment and my reply do, but thankfully we're in a dead branch of a comment thread so this won't pollute most user's views). HN exists (partially) to surface interesting news and foster discussions of that news - flamebait is never interesting and it doesn't lead to interesting discussions. We of the internet discovered, during the usenet days, that reducing a conversation to a shouting match is boring - so to promote a more healthy dialog HN specifically removes inflammatory comments unless they bring an interesting topic to light (and even then it's just nicer to communicate in a polite manner) - as this is the goal for this private forum it's completely within its right to restrict discussions that go against that goal and restrict users that repeatedly violate that goal. The internet is a large place and there are plenty of other forums that cater to other forms of expression - the first amendment exists primarily to make it illegal for the government to say such places can't exist - it doesn't obligate all places to act in such a manner nor mandate the existence of such places.
MrMan 4y ago
the world is a closed system. the illusion of independence is just a lie. Brexit marks the transition of the UK from arguably the most important state in the EU, to a 2nd and then 3rd world country. It is the suicide of a nation due to spite, ignorance, hate, greed, stupidity. Europe needs to be unified. the entire globe needs to be unified. small countries trying to go it alone will be wiped out or impoverished or both.
- inglor_cz 4y ago
  "the entire globe needs to be unified" How do you want to agree on a common set of values with, say, the Taliban and the CCP? Would you yourself rather live in a giant dormitory with a thousand other people, everyone eating the same breakfast, than in your own house according to your needs and wishes? It is not that different with nations.

blibble 4y ago

during her lifetime the British Empire went from its zenith to its end leaving a trade bloc (Brexit) is hardly notable by comparison

scott_w 4y ago
It is when you see Brexit as part of that end.
- blibble 4y ago
  the Empire ended in 1997 with the handover of Hong Kong before the EU existed
  - ploika 4y ago
    The EEC became the EU in 1993.
  - 4ad 4y ago
    The EU was founded in 1993, and traces its roots back to EEC (1957) and ECSC (1951).
    - blibble 4y ago
      it is quite clear in the Maastrict treaty that the EU was a newly established entity that absorbed the obligations and responsibilities of the former entities (in the same way the United States absorbed the obligations and responsibilities of Great Britain in the 13 colonies) (regardless, I got my dates wrong, I was thinking of Nice...)
      - yuppie_scum 4y ago
        Buddy take the L on that comment
  - zxexz 4y ago
    Do you mean the eurozone? The EU as we know it today came into existence (Maastricht treaty). The eurozone was 1999.

isoprophlex 4y ago

You really hit the nail on the head. Watching footage of her inauguration drives home how the world changed during her reign. She lived through the entire crazy exponential increase in, well, everything. May she rest in peace.

foobarian 4y ago

I think humans have evolved to need rulers and hierarchy to look up to to some extent. Look at what happened to Americans -- once the UK royalty was gone it was replaced with celebrity. It's just human nature.

dfraser992 4y ago
[flagged]
- barrysteve 4y ago
  This is one of those comments that won't age well. Reducing evolution and time down to a steady state worldview, doesn't work.
- educaysean 4y ago
  My guess is that you consider yourself to be a part of that select group of "aware" individuals. How extremely human of you.
- liamwire 4y ago
  ‘Only this in-group are actual humans’ is dangerous rhetoric. See dehumanisation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dehumanization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dehumanization
jollybean 4y ago
The Queen is not a 'ruler' though, she's a figurehead. Which is fully appropriate where it exists. I would be 100% against the US having a 'Constitutional Monarch' but I'm 100% in support of the UK Constitutional Monarchy, given that it has come from their long established culture, nearly a 1000-year-old 'contiguous-ish' institution. FYI in 1258 the Monarch signed documents which required him to 'Confer with Parliament' when changing rates of taxation. That's only 40 years past Magna Carta, and the first reference to 'Parliament'.
- elcritch 4y ago
  I think the British Monarch could in _theory_ have some political power as parliamentary bills go by the monarch for approval. The Queen always approved them of course. The romantic in me likes to believe the Queen would step in if the British parliament tried passing some truly terrible bill. Basically acting as a last stop gap of human and British sensibility. Though with Queen Elizabeth II gone I'd have less trust in the judgement of a monarch. Part of me does wonder if US politics would've been much different with a ceremonial figurehead. And that'd be a fun alt-history where a great-great-grandchild of George Washington is the ceremonial head of the US government and has to deal with intrigues of Washington politics while just wanting to live quietly on the ancestral Virginian home.

bigfudge 4y ago

Then mourn the social democratic consensus that built that prosperity, rather than the symbol of empire and privilege that it replaced?

robertlagrant 4y ago
That's not what built it. Automation and technology and burning fuel did.
- SyzygistSix 4y ago
  It's not an either/or proposition. The early industrial revolution had automation and technology and burning fuel too.
  - robertlagrant 4y ago
    Indeed. That was the start of the big push of thousands of big and small inventions and commercial progressions that has gradually allowed more and more of the whole world to achieve heights no one could've dreamed of even 100 years ago.
- bigfudge 4y ago
  No. Statistically, the reason the gp was celebrating their post war prosperity was because the proceeds or automation and burning fossil fuels were much more equitably shared in that period than any other in history.

dfraser992 4y ago

An upvote for you (if I could). I'm American but have lived in the UK for near 20 years. My great-whatever grandfather signed the Declaration of Independence so I'm hardly a royalist... So WTF am I doing living in the UK??? (the NHS etc...) My general sense is that of respect for the Queen as a symbol. She did it right and wasn't a useless numpty like ... oh... all of the rest of them. Primarily nothing but B list celebrities. William and Kate seem fine enough, Harry and Meghan are .. irrelevant except to the nonces who have no actual lives, and let's not discuss Andrew... Hopefully Charles will use the "soft power" he supposedly has to corral the professional sociopaths destroying this country (e.g. wind and solar power, given his supposed environmental leanings) but I don't know.... it very well may be all downhill from now. England (and by extension all of the UK) is destined to become a failed state. Which is why I am looking hard at moving to Scotland (soon to be independent!) or even the EU to get the F out of here ASAP. It really is a transitional point.

alistairSH 4y ago
Which is why I am looking hard at moving to Scotland (soon to be independent!) Has there been any real progress towards another referendum on independence? I know SNP still has the lion’s share of seats in Scottish parliament, but what else? As a Scottish ex-pat of sorts (born UAE, to Scottish parents, but raised and educated in the US), I have nostalgic notions of moving to Scotland. Then I remember its dark much of the year and rains a fair bit. Heck, it even snowed in June the last summer I visited (yes, that was up Glenshee, but still).
- faverin 4y ago
  No one seriously thinks Scotland will leave soon. The energy is moving to a new settlement of the four nations. That will come in the next ten years. We're fine. Edinburgh got loads of tech energy. Glasgow's a massive city with loads of opportunity. We have a large financial sector that needs geeks. Come. We need you. Lived here thirty years now. No regrets. Weather is improving with climate change (ducks).
  - siquick 4y ago

FiberBundle 4y ago

It seems as if you judge the past too positively. The 70s and 80s were also perceived as pretty dark at the time and anything but stable. The sentiment at the time was quite similar to the way you describe the present. You had stagnation in the 70s similar to what is happening today and a general view that the welfare system was losing its viability. The Cold War also became more serious again in the 80s and the geopolitical threats were comparable to today's.

fullsend 4y ago
I love the example of ancient texts that decry how the youth don’t listen to their elders any more and the lords are getting stingier with the taxes every season. It’s a universal feeling.
- agent008t 4y ago
  You mean this quote by Socrates, which was written as Athens was entering a period of (terminal) decline? “The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.” Maybe it is not so universal, but an actual predictor of civilizational decline?
  - withinboredom 4y ago
    > but an actual predictor of civilizational decline? I think it is more of an indicator of overall prosperity, which may, in fact cause civilizational decline. I'm reminded of the mouse utopia[0], and my own family. [0]: https://www.drhpod.com/blog/mouse-utopia https://www.drhpod.com/blog/mouse-utopia
  - Eisenstein 4y ago
    Socrates never said that and he never wrote anything (that has survived, anyway). "QI has determined that the author of the quote is not someone famous or ancient. It was crafted by a student, Kenneth John Freeman, for his Cambridge dissertation published in 1907. Freeman did not claim that the passage under analysis was a direct quotation of anyone; instead, he was presenting his own summary of the complaints directed against young people in ancient times. The words he used were later slightly altered to yield the modern version. In fact, more than one section of his thesis has been excerpted and then attributed classical luminaries." * https://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/05/01/misbehave/ https://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/05/01/misbehave/

rikthevik 4y ago

My understanding is that the late 70s and early 80s in England was a hopeless place. As evidence I submit Alan Moore's introduction to V for Vendetta and Ghost Town by the Specials. - https://slendertroll.tumblr.com/post/66114152363 https://slendertroll.tumblr.com/post/66114152363 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_Town_(Specials_song) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_Town_(Specials_song) "Naivete can also be detected in my supposition that it would take something as melodramatic as a near-miss nuclear conflict to nudge England toward fascism. Although in fairness to myself and David, there were no better or more accurate predictions of our country’s future available in comic form at that time. The simple fact that much of the historical background of the story proceeds from a predicted Conservative defeat in the 1982 General Election should tell you how reliable we were in our role as Cassandras. It’s 1988 now. Margaret Thatcher is entering her third term of office and talking confidently of an unbroken Conservative leadership well into the next century. My youngest daughter is seven and the tabloid press are circulating the idea of concentration camps for persons with AIDS. The new riot police wear black visors, as do their horses, and their vans have rotating video cameras mounted on top. The government has expressed a desire to eradicate homosexuality, even as an abstract concept, and one can only speculate as to which minority will be the next legislated against. I’m thinking of taking my family and getting out of this country soon, sometime over the next couple of years. It’s cold and it’s mean-spirited and I don’t like it here anymore."

npteljes 4y ago
Punk and goth also emerged in the 70s, with the UK as a particular hotpot. I don't think that's a sign of economic prosperity.
- stuartd 4y ago
  Punk was very much not a sign of prosperity, more like stagnancy. Source: was there.
  - gizajob 4y ago
    Would you have preferred more prosperity, but soundtracked only by the Bay City Rollers, Pink Floyd, and Cliff Richard? Or the angry DIY spirit of punk to emerge?

sacrosancty 4y ago

None of those things you mentioned are real or big problems visible at an individual level any more than the problems of previous decades. If nobody told you they'd happened, you'd be enjoying the same stability and comfort as before. Perhaps the problem is how the media presents events, not the events themselves. Without an objective way to measure "badness", all you're doing it reflecting what the TV told you to feel.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

jollybean 4y ago

'Long period of stability' since WW1? WW2? The Cold War? Maybe you're young, but this 'feeling of stability' really has only happened since 1991. I remember before that, and it was very scary living with the Soviet Union and all those countries with nukes pointed at us. Also, the 1960s-1980s wrought huge economic change, as the last phase of major 'Democratic Socialist' changes occurred, desegregation/civil rights in the US along with giant leap in crime, and most of the west moved out of a very chaotic political climate only towards the end of that. 1990-2010 was a bit of a calm period. Also, 'Brexit' is not a net negative thing (I think it's neutral on the whole). The EEC (i.e. trade) is almost all of the benefit of the EU, some of the post EEC i.e. EU artifacts are actually quite a bad thing (though not all of course). Even Euro itself, is probably only 'neutral' in that it has very harsh externalities that are just not obvious. Notably, we have seen a massive failure in the EU to not only protect itself, 100% dependent on US military defence, even in 2020 - but one of the 'root problems' was the EU powerhouse, Germany, abdicating it's defence responsibilities, and selling out the entirety of the EU to Russian energy dependence which put the EU in an existentially weak position vis-a-vis Russia. If the US did not exist, Putin would be dominating the EU via it's vast tentacles (like it is in Hungary, but much worse, and all over). Obviously some nations, like France, Sweden and Finland are quite prepared, but on the whole, it's bad. Europeans are know this, Macron himself has suggested 'something else' for Ukraine and Georgia. It will literally take decades for Ukraine get into the EU, which is nary impossible for any normal country as they cannot maintain a consistent strategic orientation for that long, which speaks to the gigantic bureaucratic complexity of the EU. Instead - UK, Turkey, Ukraine, Finland, Georgia, Switzerland will possibly join the 'expanded' EU (by another name), which will mostly be trade focused. The interesting thing about that however, the other nations, notably Spain, Italy, Greece will definitely start to wonder about 'the grass being greener' in those countries. QE2's death is definitely a kind of geostrategic demarcation, along with the failure of Russia in Ukraine as it's 'last gasp' as a major power, and COVID. The rise of China as well, but that's in phases. This is kind of a WW1 moment. As for the future of the Royals? It's hard to say - some progressives may want to think more 'Republican' but I'm not so sure. We are choking on materialism and people are yearning for authentic things. 'Secular Ideologies' including Socialism and Capitalism have brought us some nice things, but we are fundamentally more hollow. 'De-culturlization' isn't going so well, people are spiritually empty, we lack community. Putting a 'Starbucks on Every Corner' of the world is good for the GDP, but it's woefully lacking otherwise. A trip to the suburubs of Toronto where things are actually technically 'good' from a culturally secular perspective (i.e. peace, jobs, people get along well) ... but you'll find it's a kind of cultural death: absolutely no local culture whatsoever, almost the entire population working for 'local offices' of international firms, nothing to even identify the area as belonging to it's actual nation, culture and values being dictated by the marketing rooms of foreign countries, mostly in the name of selling sneakers and iPhones. That's 'materialism' not true 'prosperity'. It's amazing if you were a poor kid from Hyderabad (i.e. to have material stability), but not so good otherwise. In that context, everything that has cultural authenticity is basically worth more than anything else. Do you know what's exploding in value? Authentic Faberge eggs. As we also realize the value of cultural institutions. Other things, even neat things like iPhones, are ultimately just commodities.

whiskey14 4y ago

This is exactly how I feel