9 ms·

It's a cult. I think it would be more akin to a large portion of American lawmakers being ties with Scientology.

by ziftface 4y ago

Rackedup 4y ago
Christianity is kind of a cult too, just more popular.
- encody 4y ago
  You're technically correct, but I think that's a different definition of the word "cult" from the colloquial, and from what is being used above. Wikipedia's definition describes a cult as "unusual," "socially deviant," and "novel." I don't think Christianity fits that description in America. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult
  - pessimizer 4y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charismatic_Christianity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charismatic_Christianity ususual: a tenth of the world's population, but probably a third of the US population. socially deviant: a matter of opinion. novel: I've got books that are older. > With traditions of Pentecostalism already developed in the 18th century out of Protestant evangelicalism, the beginning of the charismatic movement in historic Christian Churches came in 1960 at St. Mark's Episcopal Church in Van Nuys, California. Dennis Bennett, the church's Rector, felt the Holy Spirit within him and announced the event to his Anglican church. > The charismatic movement reached Lutherans and Presbyterians in 1962. Among Roman Catholics, it spread around 1967. Methodists became involved in the charismatic movement in the 1970s. > Some nondenominational evangelical churches decided to follow this movement and take distance from their Pentecostal conventions. Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa, California is one of the first evangelical neo-charismatic churches started in 1965. In the United Kingdom, Jesus Army, founded in 1969, is an example of the impact outside of the United States. The spread of the charismatic movement outside of the US was also encouraged by Bennett, who traveled to Vancouver to minister there. Many other congregations were established in the rest of the world. Modern churches internationally have embraced the charismatic movement or adapted their own practices to incorporate it. In the United Kingdom, the house church movement has grown to include charismatic practices. Hillsong Church in Australia is another example of a Pentecostal church that incorporates the charismatic movement. The neo-charismatic movement, also known as the third-wave, has also spread widely since 1970; these churches often reject the charismatic or Pentecostal label but accept the general practice of accepting gifts of the Spirit. > Some scholars attribute the quick and successful spread of charismatic Christianity to its successful use of mass media platforms, but also to the physical experience of religion that it provides, which creates a personal connection to spiritual mediation for believers.
    - HereIGoAgain 4y ago
      America =/= the rest of the world That was a pretty underhanded attempt it twisting the facts to fit a narrative.
      - pessimizer 4y ago
        I don't know how to not be underhanded if mentioning that it applies to 1/3 of Americans in the second line of my comment is somehow sneaky, but thanks for ignoring 90% of the comment entirely. My grandfather has hats older than charismatic Christianity.
YeahNO 4y ago
One person's established religion is just someone else's cult. They all engage in indoctrination and belief in magical thinking with absolutely no proof in the existence of its deity or deities.
- hn_throwaway_99 4y ago
  Semi-agree, but I think there are 2 fundamental differences between established religions and cults: 1. Complete shunning of non-cult members, and even harsher shunning of ex-members. This one may be a gray area, as certainly many religions identify all members of other religions as "going to hell", and I know Mormons who have been excommunicated for being gay. Still, the level of ostracism in mainstream religions is nothing compared to, for example, what happens if you try to leave Scientology. Scientologists declare you a "subversive person", stalk you, and essentially try to ruin you. I know many folks who have left the Catholic church, but in all honestly the Catholic church still tries to welcome them back with open arms. 2. Be secretive about the details of the cult before you are "bought in". Say what you will about organized religion, but it's pretty trivial to get the full text of the Bible, Koran, and other religious writings. Meanwhile, Scientology requires you to pay thousands and thousands of dollars to slowly get access to their screeds, and they have gone after ex-members who have attempted to publish this information.
  - wahnfrieden 4y ago
    seems odd to not acknowledge how the non-secretive nature of modern christian religion is such a recent (technological and social) development and still holds some fringe controversy at similar levels as these other extreme cults
  - knodi123 4y ago
    > Still, the level of ostracism in mainstream religions is nothing compared to, for example, what happens if you try to leave Scientology. Worldwide, a majority of muslims support the idea of a death penalty for apostasy (renouncing the religion). Defining a cult is a lot harder than it sounds at first glance. My personal definition, which is not very useful since it's so subjective, is "A cult is a new religion formed on purpose by a charismatic person who is knowingly lying in order to gain temporal power."
badRNG 4y ago
What exactly separates a "cult" from any other church? It seems that the word is often lobbed against minority religions that either aren't mainstream (or somehow related to mainstream religions), are recent in origin, or are viewed as eccentric or peculiar. There are truly damaging religious groups, but this doesn't seem to be what is referenced by the word cult. It seems to be used more often to describe religions that are unconnected (or less connected) to religions considered "normal" like Christianity, Islam, etc.
- Algent 4y ago
  > What exactly separates a "cult" from any other church? Usually the difference between a cult and a sect is how hard it is to leave it. church more usually define practice of the "established religions" or as long as it stay close enough to it.
  - nradov 4y ago
    Islam is usually considered an established religion. And yet in some countries run by extremist fundamentalists, apostasy is literally punishable by death. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam?wprov=sfla1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam?wprov=sfla1
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- Mountain_Skies 4y ago
  While I won't suggest this is society's distinction between the two, in my mind it's about what happens if you exert independent thought that conflicts with the institution's beliefs and what happens if you attempt to leave the group. Many ex-Mormons claim their former church is a cult and that life in Mormon dominated areas become very difficult for those who have left the faith. Same for Jehovah's Witness but the impact is smaller because not many areas are dominated by them and you don't have to move far to get away from it. On the other hand, the worst cults will hunt you down across the country (and possibly the Earth) if your existence is offensive enough to them, which isn't something typically seen when leaving a mainstream Christian religion. A Mormon in Alabama leaving the church isn't likely to face much social ostracism while a Southern Baptist might, especially if they reject Christianity entirely, but their life isn't likely to be in danger.
castrodd 4y ago
I agree with you. But all churches start as cults. Romans viewed Christians the same way most Americans view Scientologists. Actually, Romans killed Christians, so probably they viewed them a tad bit worse.
- colinmhayes 4y ago
  The difference is that Christianity has a huge amount of buy in among the American people. The unification church can’t really say the same about the Japanese people, and in some ways in antithetical to the LDPs nationalistic politics since the church is run by Koreans.
coliveira 4y ago
Christianity was a cult during the Roman empire. The only difference is the reach of these religious entities.
- the_af 4y ago
  Agreed about Christianity, disagreed that it's the only difference. There is a set of cult-like behavior that distinguishes modern cults from mainstream established religions. Those practices are an important distinction. Also, the mindset required to join a fringe or secretive cult today that shuns the rest of society, and is shunned by society in turn, seems relevant to me.
bnralt 4y ago
It's worth pointing out that American lawmakers also have ties with the Unification Church. A couple of decades ago its founder, Sun Myung Moon, actually had a coronation in a U.S. Senate office building that was attended by numerous U.S. Senators and Congressmembers. He was declared humanity's messiah in the ceremony: > Mr. Davis says he held the wife's crown and was ''a bit surprised'' by Mr. Moon's Messiah remarks, which were delivered in Korean but accompanied by a written translation. In them, he said emperors, kings and presidents had ''declared to all heaven and earth that Reverend Sun Myung Moon is none other than humanity's Savior, Messiah, Returning Lord and True Parent.'' > By Wednesday, after news of the event had been reported in the online magazine Salon and various newspapers, Capitol Hill was in full-blown backpedaling mode, as lawmakers who attended but missed the coronation -- or saw it and did not think much of it -- struggled to explain themselves. The Washington Times, a conservative D.C. newspaper that has many prominent conservatives on its staff (Tony Blankly, Larry Kudlow, Tony Snow) was also founded by Sun Myung Moon and owned by the Unification Church[2]. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/24/us/a-crowning-at-the-capital-creates-a-stir.html https://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/24/us/a-crowning-at-the-capi... [2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/sun-myung-moon-dies-at-92-washington-times-owner-led-the-unification-church/2012/09/02/001b747a-f531-11e1-aab7-f199a16396cf_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/sun-myung-...
pessimizer 4y ago
But plenty of them have connections to weird cults, also, due to the US largely being (especially in governance) a Protestant country. Protestantism isn't a religion, it's thousands of religions, each having between 1 and 100 leaders with constituencies between the size of a family or the population of a state. For example, H. Clinton's relationship with The Family http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Family_(Christian_political_organization) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Family_(Christian_political... or Amy Coney Barrett's People of Praise https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_of_Praise https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_of_Praise. American lawmakers are at least as if not more religiously bizarre than Japanese ones.

It's a cult. I think it would be more akin to a large portion of American lawmakers being ties with Scientology.

Rackedup 4y ago

Christianity is kind of a cult too, just more popular.

encody 4y ago
You're technically correct, but I think that's a different definition of the word "cult" from the colloquial, and from what is being used above. Wikipedia's definition describes a cult as "unusual," "socially deviant," and "novel." I don't think Christianity fits that description in America. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult
- pessimizer 4y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charismatic_Christianity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charismatic_Christianity ususual: a tenth of the world's population, but probably a third of the US population. socially deviant: a matter of opinion. novel: I've got books that are older. > With traditions of Pentecostalism already developed in the 18th century out of Protestant evangelicalism, the beginning of the charismatic movement in historic Christian Churches came in 1960 at St. Mark's Episcopal Church in Van Nuys, California. Dennis Bennett, the church's Rector, felt the Holy Spirit within him and announced the event to his Anglican church. > The charismatic movement reached Lutherans and Presbyterians in 1962. Among Roman Catholics, it spread around 1967. Methodists became involved in the charismatic movement in the 1970s. > Some nondenominational evangelical churches decided to follow this movement and take distance from their Pentecostal conventions. Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa, California is one of the first evangelical neo-charismatic churches started in 1965. In the United Kingdom, Jesus Army, founded in 1969, is an example of the impact outside of the United States. The spread of the charismatic movement outside of the US was also encouraged by Bennett, who traveled to Vancouver to minister there. Many other congregations were established in the rest of the world. Modern churches internationally have embraced the charismatic movement or adapted their own practices to incorporate it. In the United Kingdom, the house church movement has grown to include charismatic practices. Hillsong Church in Australia is another example of a Pentecostal church that incorporates the charismatic movement. The neo-charismatic movement, also known as the third-wave, has also spread widely since 1970; these churches often reject the charismatic or Pentecostal label but accept the general practice of accepting gifts of the Spirit. > Some scholars attribute the quick and successful spread of charismatic Christianity to its successful use of mass media platforms, but also to the physical experience of religion that it provides, which creates a personal connection to spiritual mediation for believers.
  - HereIGoAgain 4y ago
    America =/= the rest of the world That was a pretty underhanded attempt it twisting the facts to fit a narrative.
    - pessimizer 4y ago
      I don't know how to not be underhanded if mentioning that it applies to 1/3 of Americans in the second line of my comment is somehow sneaky, but thanks for ignoring 90% of the comment entirely. My grandfather has hats older than charismatic Christianity.

YeahNO 4y ago

One person's established religion is just someone else's cult. They all engage in indoctrination and belief in magical thinking with absolutely no proof in the existence of its deity or deities.

hn_throwaway_99 4y ago
Semi-agree, but I think there are 2 fundamental differences between established religions and cults: 1. Complete shunning of non-cult members, and even harsher shunning of ex-members. This one may be a gray area, as certainly many religions identify all members of other religions as "going to hell", and I know Mormons who have been excommunicated for being gay. Still, the level of ostracism in mainstream religions is nothing compared to, for example, what happens if you try to leave Scientology. Scientologists declare you a "subversive person", stalk you, and essentially try to ruin you. I know many folks who have left the Catholic church, but in all honestly the Catholic church still tries to welcome them back with open arms. 2. Be secretive about the details of the cult before you are "bought in". Say what you will about organized religion, but it's pretty trivial to get the full text of the Bible, Koran, and other religious writings. Meanwhile, Scientology requires you to pay thousands and thousands of dollars to slowly get access to their screeds, and they have gone after ex-members who have attempted to publish this information.
- wahnfrieden 4y ago
  seems odd to not acknowledge how the non-secretive nature of modern christian religion is such a recent (technological and social) development and still holds some fringe controversy at similar levels as these other extreme cults
- knodi123 4y ago
  > Still, the level of ostracism in mainstream religions is nothing compared to, for example, what happens if you try to leave Scientology. Worldwide, a majority of muslims support the idea of a death penalty for apostasy (renouncing the religion). Defining a cult is a lot harder than it sounds at first glance. My personal definition, which is not very useful since it's so subjective, is "A cult is a new religion formed on purpose by a charismatic person who is knowingly lying in order to gain temporal power."

badRNG 4y ago

What exactly separates a "cult" from any other church? It seems that the word is often lobbed against minority religions that either aren't mainstream (or somehow related to mainstream religions), are recent in origin, or are viewed as eccentric or peculiar. There are truly damaging religious groups, but this doesn't seem to be what is referenced by the word cult. It seems to be used more often to describe religions that are unconnected (or less connected) to religions considered "normal" like Christianity, Islam, etc.

Algent 4y ago
> What exactly separates a "cult" from any other church? Usually the difference between a cult and a sect is how hard it is to leave it. church more usually define practice of the "established religions" or as long as it stay close enough to it.
- nradov 4y ago
  Islam is usually considered an established religion. And yet in some countries run by extremist fundamentalists, apostasy is literally punishable by death. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam?wprov=sfla1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam?wprov=sfla1
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
Mountain_Skies 4y ago
While I won't suggest this is society's distinction between the two, in my mind it's about what happens if you exert independent thought that conflicts with the institution's beliefs and what happens if you attempt to leave the group. Many ex-Mormons claim their former church is a cult and that life in Mormon dominated areas become very difficult for those who have left the faith. Same for Jehovah's Witness but the impact is smaller because not many areas are dominated by them and you don't have to move far to get away from it. On the other hand, the worst cults will hunt you down across the country (and possibly the Earth) if your existence is offensive enough to them, which isn't something typically seen when leaving a mainstream Christian religion. A Mormon in Alabama leaving the church isn't likely to face much social ostracism while a Southern Baptist might, especially if they reject Christianity entirely, but their life isn't likely to be in danger.

castrodd 4y ago

I agree with you. But all churches start as cults. Romans viewed Christians the same way most Americans view Scientologists. Actually, Romans killed Christians, so probably they viewed them a tad bit worse.

colinmhayes 4y ago
The difference is that Christianity has a huge amount of buy in among the American people. The unification church can’t really say the same about the Japanese people, and in some ways in antithetical to the LDPs nationalistic politics since the church is run by Koreans.

coliveira 4y ago

Christianity was a cult during the Roman empire. The only difference is the reach of these religious entities.

the_af 4y ago
Agreed about Christianity, disagreed that it's the only difference. There is a set of cult-like behavior that distinguishes modern cults from mainstream established religions. Those practices are an important distinction. Also, the mindset required to join a fringe or secretive cult today that shuns the rest of society, and is shunned by society in turn, seems relevant to me.

bnralt 4y ago

It's worth pointing out that American lawmakers also have ties with the Unification Church. A couple of decades ago its founder, Sun Myung Moon, actually had a coronation in a U.S. Senate office building that was attended by numerous U.S. Senators and Congressmembers. He was declared humanity's messiah in the ceremony: > Mr. Davis says he held the wife's crown and was ''a bit surprised'' by Mr. Moon's Messiah remarks, which were delivered in Korean but accompanied by a written translation. In them, he said emperors, kings and presidents had ''declared to all heaven and earth that Reverend Sun Myung Moon is none other than humanity's Savior, Messiah, Returning Lord and True Parent.'' > By Wednesday, after news of the event had been reported in the online magazine Salon and various newspapers, Capitol Hill was in full-blown backpedaling mode, as lawmakers who attended but missed the coronation -- or saw it and did not think much of it -- struggled to explain themselves. The Washington Times, a conservative D.C. newspaper that has many prominent conservatives on its staff (Tony Blankly, Larry Kudlow, Tony Snow) was also founded by Sun Myung Moon and owned by the Unification Church[2]. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/24/us/a-crowning-at-the-capital-creates-a-stir.html https://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/24/us/a-crowning-at-the-capi... [2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/sun-myung-moon-dies-at-92-washington-times-owner-led-the-unification-church/2012/09/02/001b747a-f531-11e1-aab7-f199a16396cf_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/sun-myung-...

pessimizer 4y ago

But plenty of them have connections to weird cults, also, due to the US largely being (especially in governance) a Protestant country. Protestantism isn't a religion, it's thousands of religions, each having between 1 and 100 leaders with constituencies between the size of a family or the population of a state. For example, H. Clinton's relationship with The Family http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Family_(Christian_political_organization) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Family_(Christian_political... or Amy Coney Barrett's People of Praise https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_of_Praise https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_of_Praise. American lawmakers are at least as if not more religiously bizarre than Japanese ones.