4 ms·

Without sunscreen I burn in just a few minutes and have painful skin for the next few days. I'm okay thanks, I'll keep using it.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
ajb 4y ago
Resistance to sunburn increases exponentially with regular exposure, and without it falls back to your genetic base level. That's not hyperbole, UV treatment in medical facilities have to start with seconds of treatment which is increased by a percentage each time until you get to effective levels. That's not to recommend that you try doing that yourself, just a weird fact I learned. its hard to calibrate sun exposure. But theoretically starting from very sensitive skin isn't a barrier.
- refurb 4y ago
  And UV damage is cumulative as well. Even if you ignore melanoma, there are several non-cancerous or pre-cancerous skin conditions from sun exposure. If you go to Asia where most women avoid any sun exposure at all (up to wearing masks and gloves) you’ll note there skin looks amazing even into their 50’s. And the few minutes of exposure you get each day is usually enough to provide vitamin D. I think it’s like 12 min of upper body exposure in moderately intense sunlight is enough.
  - arcticbull 4y ago
    The point the article makes is that it's not just about vitamin D but also nitric oxide synthesized which lower blood pressure and improve CV health in excess of whatever risk you accrue from the sun exposure. It's important to consider of course that different races age differently. Is it masks and gloves, or is it being of the local ethnicity? Not getting any sun at all is really bad, after all, since as the article shows, vitamin D supplementation is quite ineffective.
  - watwut 4y ago
    > If you go to Asia where most women avoid any sun exposure at all (up to wearing masks and gloves) you’ll note there skin looks amazing even into their 50’s. I kind of resent the idea that this is model to strive for. Ok, you look somewhat better, but you also pay price of constantly limiting activities and having to be careful what you do ... all the time.
    - sokoloff 4y ago
      I didn’t read it being cited here so much as a model to strive for, but rather as strong evidence that there is UV damage to skin even at a sub-cancerous level.
      - refurb 4y ago
        Exactly. I don’t avoid the sun to that extent, but it’s pretty obvious that every strong sun exposure is a little bit more damage each time. There was an interesting paper that show a woman who applied a sun protecting lotion to her face everyday for the last 30 years of her life. But she didn’t apply it to her neck. The difference is very stark at 70 years old. The skin on her face was wrinkled but her neck look absolutely worse in terms of age and skin damage.
      - watwut 4y ago
        It avoiding that "damage" worth the daily effort described above? Does that damage consists of anything more then just "her skin is slightly less flat in the old age"?
        refurb 4y ago
        That's kind of a personal choice, no? But I think people really underestimate the impact of sun damage, particular if your skin is quite pale. https://www.yalemedicine.org/conditions/sun-damage https://www.yalemedicine.org/conditions/sun-damage
        throwaway1851 4y ago
  - nradov 4y ago
    UV damage is not really cumulative. Most of it gets repaired. https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlelanding/2002/pp/b201230h https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlelanding/2002/pp/b2012... Vitamin D production is highly dependent on time of day and latitude. At latitudes closer to the poles, even extended sun exposure might not stimulate much vitamin D. You can find online calculators which show this for your location.
    - refurb 4y ago
      That's purely DNA damage and yeah, it's "most". But not all. So it is cumulative over time. I mean, it's pretty clear that sun exposure damages the skin. And it's not just skin cancer but other pre-cancerous changes and just premature aging. https://www.msdmanuals.com/home/skin-disorders/sunlight-and-skin-damage/overview-of-sunlight-and-skin-damage https://www.msdmanuals.com/home/skin-disorders/sunlight-and-...
      - arcticbull 4y ago
        Again basal cell and squamous cell carcinomas have roughly a 100% 5-year survival rate - so much so it's not really been calculated. But the risk of melanoma, which is the bad one (and only accounts for 1-3% of skin cancers), goes down with more exposure to the sun. And as the article says, the benefits to CV health and reduction in melanoma risk outweigh the risk associated with these very low-risk cancers. That article isn't strictly wrong to say that exposure to sunlight is linked with melanoma, but it's linked to childhood sunburns and intermittent sunshine/sunburn. Sunburns are bad, sun is good. > And perplexingly, outdoor workers have half the melanoma rate of indoor workers. Tanned people have lower rates in general. I think it's also fair to say that exposure to the sun doesn't cause premature aging so much as not being exposed to the sun makes you look younger than you would otherwise - but of course that only helps if you're alive. Direct sun exposure reduces all-cause mortality. [1] [1] https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/joim.12251 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/joim.12251
        refurb 4y ago
        Interesting article, but note that moderate sun exposure has a lower mortality than either "no" or "lots of" sun exposure. Which is not surprising considering the need for sun exposure for things like vitamin D. But I'm not sure mortality is the best measure? Maybe quality of life? Getting surgery to remove a basal cell carcinoma and having failed skin grafts (happened to my grandmother) seems like a heavy burden to cost of life not captured in mortality.
samatman 4y ago
There's no point in talking about sunscreen without reference to skin type. You're probably a Type 1, which doesn't tan in any significant way. Anyone in the 2 and 3 range can build significant sun tolerance by being careful, 4 and 5s don't generally need sunscreen. Jury is out on skin cancer, Bantu people in Africa don't all die of melanoma, so clearly melanin is doing a lot of work here.
ReGenGen 4y ago
Just use reef-safe sunscreen... and help- protect what makes Hawaii & the tropics amazing https://www.popsci.com/gear/best-reef-safe-sunscreens/ https://www.popsci.com/gear/best-reef-safe-sunscreens/ This has been well known in the dive community for a while, the NEWs here is that beach-bodies need to use reef-safe sunscreen too.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

ajb 4y ago

Resistance to sunburn increases exponentially with regular exposure, and without it falls back to your genetic base level. That's not hyperbole, UV treatment in medical facilities have to start with seconds of treatment which is increased by a percentage each time until you get to effective levels. That's not to recommend that you try doing that yourself, just a weird fact I learned. its hard to calibrate sun exposure. But theoretically starting from very sensitive skin isn't a barrier.

refurb 4y ago
And UV damage is cumulative as well. Even if you ignore melanoma, there are several non-cancerous or pre-cancerous skin conditions from sun exposure. If you go to Asia where most women avoid any sun exposure at all (up to wearing masks and gloves) you’ll note there skin looks amazing even into their 50’s. And the few minutes of exposure you get each day is usually enough to provide vitamin D. I think it’s like 12 min of upper body exposure in moderately intense sunlight is enough.
- arcticbull 4y ago
  The point the article makes is that it's not just about vitamin D but also nitric oxide synthesized which lower blood pressure and improve CV health in excess of whatever risk you accrue from the sun exposure. It's important to consider of course that different races age differently. Is it masks and gloves, or is it being of the local ethnicity? Not getting any sun at all is really bad, after all, since as the article shows, vitamin D supplementation is quite ineffective.
- watwut 4y ago
  > If you go to Asia where most women avoid any sun exposure at all (up to wearing masks and gloves) you’ll note there skin looks amazing even into their 50’s. I kind of resent the idea that this is model to strive for. Ok, you look somewhat better, but you also pay price of constantly limiting activities and having to be careful what you do ... all the time.
  - sokoloff 4y ago
    I didn’t read it being cited here so much as a model to strive for, but rather as strong evidence that there is UV damage to skin even at a sub-cancerous level.
    - refurb 4y ago
      Exactly. I don’t avoid the sun to that extent, but it’s pretty obvious that every strong sun exposure is a little bit more damage each time. There was an interesting paper that show a woman who applied a sun protecting lotion to her face everyday for the last 30 years of her life. But she didn’t apply it to her neck. The difference is very stark at 70 years old. The skin on her face was wrinkled but her neck look absolutely worse in terms of age and skin damage.
    - watwut 4y ago
      It avoiding that "damage" worth the daily effort described above? Does that damage consists of anything more then just "her skin is slightly less flat in the old age"?
      - refurb 4y ago
        That's kind of a personal choice, no? But I think people really underestimate the impact of sun damage, particular if your skin is quite pale. https://www.yalemedicine.org/conditions/sun-damage https://www.yalemedicine.org/conditions/sun-damage
        throwaway1851 4y ago
- nradov 4y ago
  UV damage is not really cumulative. Most of it gets repaired. https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlelanding/2002/pp/b201230h https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlelanding/2002/pp/b2012... Vitamin D production is highly dependent on time of day and latitude. At latitudes closer to the poles, even extended sun exposure might not stimulate much vitamin D. You can find online calculators which show this for your location.
  - refurb 4y ago
    That's purely DNA damage and yeah, it's "most". But not all. So it is cumulative over time. I mean, it's pretty clear that sun exposure damages the skin. And it's not just skin cancer but other pre-cancerous changes and just premature aging. https://www.msdmanuals.com/home/skin-disorders/sunlight-and-skin-damage/overview-of-sunlight-and-skin-damage https://www.msdmanuals.com/home/skin-disorders/sunlight-and-...
    - arcticbull 4y ago
      Again basal cell and squamous cell carcinomas have roughly a 100% 5-year survival rate - so much so it's not really been calculated. But the risk of melanoma, which is the bad one (and only accounts for 1-3% of skin cancers), goes down with more exposure to the sun. And as the article says, the benefits to CV health and reduction in melanoma risk outweigh the risk associated with these very low-risk cancers. That article isn't strictly wrong to say that exposure to sunlight is linked with melanoma, but it's linked to childhood sunburns and intermittent sunshine/sunburn. Sunburns are bad, sun is good. > And perplexingly, outdoor workers have half the melanoma rate of indoor workers. Tanned people have lower rates in general. I think it's also fair to say that exposure to the sun doesn't cause premature aging so much as not being exposed to the sun makes you look younger than you would otherwise - but of course that only helps if you're alive. Direct sun exposure reduces all-cause mortality. [1] [1] https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/joim.12251 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/joim.12251
      - refurb 4y ago
        Interesting article, but note that moderate sun exposure has a lower mortality than either "no" or "lots of" sun exposure. Which is not surprising considering the need for sun exposure for things like vitamin D. But I'm not sure mortality is the best measure? Maybe quality of life? Getting surgery to remove a basal cell carcinoma and having failed skin grafts (happened to my grandmother) seems like a heavy burden to cost of life not captured in mortality.

samatman 4y ago

There's no point in talking about sunscreen without reference to skin type. You're probably a Type 1, which doesn't tan in any significant way. Anyone in the 2 and 3 range can build significant sun tolerance by being careful, 4 and 5s don't generally need sunscreen. Jury is out on skin cancer, Bantu people in Africa don't all die of melanoma, so clearly melanin is doing a lot of work here.

ReGenGen 4y ago

Just use reef-safe sunscreen... and help- protect what makes Hawaii & the tropics amazing https://www.popsci.com/gear/best-reef-safe-sunscreens/ https://www.popsci.com/gear/best-reef-safe-sunscreens/ This has been well known in the dive community for a while, the NEWs here is that beach-bodies need to use reef-safe sunscreen too.