4 ms·

> Users prefer native apps. You've nailed it. Not just fun to use: Users prefer native apps because mostly they are a much better user experience.

by ska 4y ago

smoldesu 4y ago
Native apps are indeed better. However, I don't think it's because web apps are incapable of being good. Apple has kneecapped the functionality of their browser and locked users into it as the only option; it's obvious willful negligence to convince developers to write more native apps. Native apps that Apple has the exclusive right to profit from. So, why haven't PWAs killed native apps yet? Because Apple understands user experience, and they'll never add PWAs to the little blue App Store unless the US government holds Tim Cook at gunpoint. It's a senseless business decision to them, PWAs haven't succeeded simply because the dominant platform (Apple) decided they shouldn't. A next-generation software delivery system is being held back because one (1) company profits from the status quo's exclusive distribution rights. I hope the SEC is taking notes!
- scarface74 4y ago
  Yes because Electron apps show just how great cross platform web based applications can be. /s
  - marcosdumay 4y ago
    Well, the usability can be really great. You should try doing some frontend with the modern DOM (not the frameworks), it's very flexible. It also performs quite well. Electron has a lot of other problems, that become worse on mobile. But UX restrictions is not one of them.
    - scarface74 4y ago
      I count “not killing my battery” and “having a native interface” as part of usability.
      - smoldesu 4y ago
        If Apple wants native GUIs on their Electron apps, then they can write a library to provide it. Otherwise, big companies have no incentive to treat MacOS like a special snowflake. Apple makes it as hard as possible to provide you an enjoyable experience outside their taxed walls.
        scarface74 4y ago
        You act as if Windows Electron apps are any better.
        pjmlp 4y ago
        Same can be told about the Linux Desktop, the biggest reason why we get everyone doing Electron instead of learning Gtk, Qt, wxWidgets. If only they were cross platform.
      - marcosdumay 4y ago
        It's not Electron that is killing your battery. It's the software running in it. Electron is eating your phone storage, and subverting its security. But not the battery.
    - AlexandrB 4y ago
      UX restrictions are good when they make apps on a platform look and feel the same. The worst thing about non-native apps is they each do things differently so cross-app learning is difficult or impossible.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
    - hulitu 4y ago
      > Well, the usability can be really great. Could. Teams tries to be smarter and paints the window with 1px margin which makes resizing impossible. If web developers really want to improve usability: You have an app with 1 text field ? Make this field accept keyboard focus by default. Why do i always have to click in a text input field before i type ( yes Teams also does this)
      - marcosdumay 4y ago
        Yes. Can. I am not aware of any one one that is great (I blame it on the environment's culture and the frameworks). But if the Teams team insists on doing stupid things, it's not Electron's fault.
  - Gigachad 4y ago
    VS code has shown that. I couldn’t tell you if an app I’m using is “native” or just a very good electron app.
    - kitsunesoba 4y ago
      VS Code is very much the exception and not the rule. It also has the benefit of an excellent, well funded development team which isn't true for even other Electron apps within the company (MS Teams). How many startups and small-to-midsize companies are going to invest as much as MS has into VS Code? Probably not many. Even an investment half or third as large would be unusual.
      - soulofmischief 4y ago
        It seems silly that you would admonish someone for bringing up exceptional web apps when the entire basis of discussion is the future of web apps. Exceptional web apps are exactly the kind of example you want to look for when discussing potential.
        kitsunesoba 4y ago
        How relevant is potential if it’s rarely fulfilled? The point is that building an Electron app of the same caliber as VS Code is a very expensive endeavor and likely not within reach of the vast majority of projects using Electron. That will continue to be true so long as using Electron is seen as a way to cut development costs to a minimum rather than as a way to develop a high quality cross platform app at a cost that’s higher than that of a single native app, but cheaper than multiple native apps. A philosophy shift is required for Electron to shine.
        soulofmischief 4y ago
        Electron is a stepping stone. This conversation isn't about Electron specifically and its current shortcomings are irrelevant to the topic, which is that cross-platform app adoption is held back by artificial company policy.

> Users prefer native apps. You've nailed it. Not just fun to use: Users prefer native apps because mostly they are a much better user experience.

by ska 4y ago

> Users prefer native apps. You've nailed it. Not just fun to use: Users prefer native apps because mostly they are a much better user experience.

smoldesu 4y ago

Native apps are indeed better. However, I don't think it's because web apps are incapable of being good. Apple has kneecapped the functionality of their browser and locked users into it as the only option; it's obvious willful negligence to convince developers to write more native apps. Native apps that Apple has the exclusive right to profit from. So, why haven't PWAs killed native apps yet? Because Apple understands user experience, and they'll never add PWAs to the little blue App Store unless the US government holds Tim Cook at gunpoint. It's a senseless business decision to them, PWAs haven't succeeded simply because the dominant platform (Apple) decided they shouldn't. A next-generation software delivery system is being held back because one (1) company profits from the status quo's exclusive distribution rights. I hope the SEC is taking notes!

scarface74 4y ago
Yes because Electron apps show just how great cross platform web based applications can be. /s
- marcosdumay 4y ago
  Well, the usability can be really great. You should try doing some frontend with the modern DOM (not the frameworks), it's very flexible. It also performs quite well. Electron has a lot of other problems, that become worse on mobile. But UX restrictions is not one of them.
  - scarface74 4y ago
    I count “not killing my battery” and “having a native interface” as part of usability.
    - smoldesu 4y ago
      If Apple wants native GUIs on their Electron apps, then they can write a library to provide it. Otherwise, big companies have no incentive to treat MacOS like a special snowflake. Apple makes it as hard as possible to provide you an enjoyable experience outside their taxed walls.
      - scarface74 4y ago
        You act as if Windows Electron apps are any better.
      - pjmlp 4y ago
        Same can be told about the Linux Desktop, the biggest reason why we get everyone doing Electron instead of learning Gtk, Qt, wxWidgets. If only they were cross platform.
    - marcosdumay 4y ago
      It's not Electron that is killing your battery. It's the software running in it. Electron is eating your phone storage, and subverting its security. But not the battery.
  - AlexandrB 4y ago
    UX restrictions are good when they make apps on a platform look and feel the same. The worst thing about non-native apps is they each do things differently so cross-app learning is difficult or impossible.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  - hulitu 4y ago
    > Well, the usability can be really great. Could. Teams tries to be smarter and paints the window with 1px margin which makes resizing impossible. If web developers really want to improve usability: You have an app with 1 text field ? Make this field accept keyboard focus by default. Why do i always have to click in a text input field before i type ( yes Teams also does this)
    - marcosdumay 4y ago
      Yes. Can. I am not aware of any one one that is great (I blame it on the environment's culture and the frameworks). But if the Teams team insists on doing stupid things, it's not Electron's fault.
- Gigachad 4y ago
  VS code has shown that. I couldn’t tell you if an app I’m using is “native” or just a very good electron app.
  - kitsunesoba 4y ago
    VS Code is very much the exception and not the rule. It also has the benefit of an excellent, well funded development team which isn't true for even other Electron apps within the company (MS Teams). How many startups and small-to-midsize companies are going to invest as much as MS has into VS Code? Probably not many. Even an investment half or third as large would be unusual.
    - soulofmischief 4y ago
      It seems silly that you would admonish someone for bringing up exceptional web apps when the entire basis of discussion is the future of web apps. Exceptional web apps are exactly the kind of example you want to look for when discussing potential.
      - kitsunesoba 4y ago
        How relevant is potential if it’s rarely fulfilled? The point is that building an Electron app of the same caliber as VS Code is a very expensive endeavor and likely not within reach of the vast majority of projects using Electron. That will continue to be true so long as using Electron is seen as a way to cut development costs to a minimum rather than as a way to develop a high quality cross platform app at a cost that’s higher than that of a single native app, but cheaper than multiple native apps. A philosophy shift is required for Electron to shine.
        soulofmischief 4y ago
        Electron is a stepping stone. This conversation isn't about Electron specifically and its current shortcomings are irrelevant to the topic, which is that cross-platform app adoption is held back by artificial company policy.