13 ms·

I appreciate it when a company asks about or tests my Myers-Briggs type early in the hiring process, because then I know that I don't want to work for them, and

I appreciate it when a company asks about or tests my Myers-Briggs type early in the hiring process, because then I know that I don't want to work for them, and they wouldn't be happy with me either. Win/win.

1retep 4y ago
Love this answer, I was thinking the same thing. I remember in college I applied to over 100 internships and my friend said “I don’t understand how you wrote over 100 cover letters.” My response was “I didn’t. If they ask for a cover letter I don’t want to work for them.”
- Sunspark 4y ago
  I hate cover letters so much. They're utterly ridiculous.. imagine applying for a lawnmower technician position or something and needing a cover letter. You'd have to write how you're great because ever since you were little you would read lawnmower catalogs to bed.
- chefandy 4y ago
  And if you believe you're best represented as a bullet list of educational and professional accomplishments, I assure you that the feeling is mutual.
  - eikenberry 4y ago
    Cover letters are one of those things that are only really useful for the first few jobs. Once you've started working you will get most of your future jobs via your network and cover letters are pointless from then on.
    - chefandy 4y ago
      If you're content to work within your network or and only care about the craft rather than the overall purpose of your company and tasks, then sure. Jobs your friends and colleagues get you don't require a cover letter.
      - notch656a 4y ago
        chefandy 4y ago
        Your professional network extends to every organization you'd aspire to work with, and you actually care about those organizations' goals? I assure you– that isn't the case for most people.
        notch656a 4y ago
        chefandy 4y ago
        yjp20 4y ago
        Be civil
        notch656a 4y ago
      - nomel 4y ago
        I've been involved in hiring at several tech companies, including two top 5. Cover letters were never considered in any part of the interview process. Our recruiters didn't even include them in the candidate packet. So, there definitely isn't any uniformity in the way cover letters are perceived.
        BeetleB 4y ago
        I agree with you, but people have strong opinions on this on HN. See past discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15934135 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15934135 I wish I could find the golden comment of an HN user realizing that he has used cover letters to exclude candidates, but he can't do that for those who didn't supply one - putting the latter at an advantage.
  - tempestn 4y ago
    I agree. I'm not interested in software that will screen resumes for keywords or that kind of thing. Instead we ask a simple question right in our job postings, asking that an answer be included in the application, and that filters out 90% of applicants who don't bother. If someone additionally includes a decent cover letter, they go to the top of the pile. We want people who took the time to read our posting and want to work here, not those who are just spamming resumes everywhere.
    - chefandy 4y ago
      Yeah. Filling a perfectly developer-shaped hole in your team? Sure... Sort a stack of resumes by experience and education and contact the top n applicants. Want more than dense pull requests, snide code reviews, and lots of "well actually" interjections even when discussing things outside their expertise? You might be disappointed with your options if you're only booking interviews based on resumes.
erdos4d 4y ago
Same for any "personality test" you find in the hiring process. Huge red flag.
throwaway0asd 4y ago
I feel the exact opposite. At least they are measuring something vaguely objectively. Interviewing with most potential employers, at least in software, is like when children guess at picking players for sports teams while wearing a blindfold. Everything always seems to come down to biases applied non uniformly. Changing jobs is a big life investment. I would prefer it not be a blind date with one-way conversations from somebody likely abusive and neglectful looking for a surf to abuse. If the potential employer is instead interested in potential they are sending a signal they are willing to invest in you. Myers Briggs gets a lot of hate due to low precision but it’s a cheap and fast assessment. There are much better assessments of personality but they take more time and are more invasive.
- cosmotic 4y ago
  What if they were using astrology? Would that be better than nothing? I think it would be worse than nothing because it demonstrates the aren't competent enough to know when they fell for a scam.
  - throwaway0asd 4y ago
    > What if they were using astrology? Then it would be guessing just the same as using no metric at all. This is only worse if the candidate is so naive as to believe they are of superior consideration than the value of a simple measure.
    - kasey_junk 4y ago
      Do we actually have any evidence that “when in the year you were born in” has worse statistical relevance than the admittedly weak relevance of personality tests? If not (and I’ve not seen it) then the candidate is just stating a preference for not working with companies that are lazy intellectually. That’s not naive that’s sensible.
      - throwaway0asd 4y ago
        Yes, Bridgewater.
coldtea 4y ago
I don't, because it means people in less fortunate industries that can't be pickers, but also programmers if a downturn comes, would have more companies pulling this shit to deal with...
mgarfias 4y ago
100%
ErikVandeWater 4y ago
MBTI isn't scientific, but that doesn't mean it isn't useful. If someone says a particular type fits them well, that helps you understand them quickly. And if they say the type they get doesn't describe them, then you don't need to use that information.
- tyingq 4y ago
  I remain skeptical. One example: "McCarley and Carskadon (1983) replicated these findings and demonstrated that across a 5-week test-retest interval, 50% of the participants received a different classification on one or more of the scales." https://www.researchgate.net/publication/232494957_Cautionary_comments_regarding_the_Myers-Briggs_Type_Indicator https://www.researchgate.net/publication/232494957_Cautionar...
  - MichaelCollins 4y ago
    Each of the few times I've taken a Myers-Briggs test, I've gotten a completely different score each time. I don't think these tests measure any immutable attributes of personality, they measure preferences which can change with time and social circumstance. And getting a new job is obviously a change of social circumstance..
    - tyingq 4y ago
      Agree. And people also tend to answer in different ways (how I am, how people think I am, how I want people to perceive me, how I want to be, etc), depending on the circumstances and environment of the test. I don't think it has much value beyond some sort of throwaway catalyst for conversation.
hinkley 4y ago
I wouldn't work for someone who felt me up either, but by just walking out I'm not doing much to prevent that behavior from being normalized. Worse, it's the Market for Lemons. The jobs nobody takes get seen by more people because they stay on the market, and so they are over-represented amongst observers. Then the horrible people at your company start saying things like, "everybody is doing it". Everybody does a lot of things that nobody should be doing.
jahewson 4y ago
Yep. Here in California it’s illegal for companies to use such tests in hiring.
alfiedotwtf 4y ago
This. ... it's the same when someone asks what my horoscope is. Thanks for the red flag.

1retep 4y ago

Love this answer, I was thinking the same thing. I remember in college I applied to over 100 internships and my friend said “I don’t understand how you wrote over 100 cover letters.” My response was “I didn’t. If they ask for a cover letter I don’t want to work for them.”

Sunspark 4y ago
I hate cover letters so much. They're utterly ridiculous.. imagine applying for a lawnmower technician position or something and needing a cover letter. You'd have to write how you're great because ever since you were little you would read lawnmower catalogs to bed.
chefandy 4y ago
And if you believe you're best represented as a bullet list of educational and professional accomplishments, I assure you that the feeling is mutual.
- eikenberry 4y ago
  Cover letters are one of those things that are only really useful for the first few jobs. Once you've started working you will get most of your future jobs via your network and cover letters are pointless from then on.
  - chefandy 4y ago
    If you're content to work within your network or and only care about the craft rather than the overall purpose of your company and tasks, then sure. Jobs your friends and colleagues get you don't require a cover letter.
    - notch656a 4y ago
      - chefandy 4y ago
        Your professional network extends to every organization you'd aspire to work with, and you actually care about those organizations' goals? I assure you– that isn't the case for most people.
        notch656a 4y ago
        chefandy 4y ago
        yjp20 4y ago
        Be civil
        notch656a 4y ago
    - nomel 4y ago
      I've been involved in hiring at several tech companies, including two top 5. Cover letters were never considered in any part of the interview process. Our recruiters didn't even include them in the candidate packet. So, there definitely isn't any uniformity in the way cover letters are perceived.
      - BeetleB 4y ago
        I agree with you, but people have strong opinions on this on HN. See past discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15934135 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15934135 I wish I could find the golden comment of an HN user realizing that he has used cover letters to exclude candidates, but he can't do that for those who didn't supply one - putting the latter at an advantage.
- tempestn 4y ago
  I agree. I'm not interested in software that will screen resumes for keywords or that kind of thing. Instead we ask a simple question right in our job postings, asking that an answer be included in the application, and that filters out 90% of applicants who don't bother. If someone additionally includes a decent cover letter, they go to the top of the pile. We want people who took the time to read our posting and want to work here, not those who are just spamming resumes everywhere.
  - chefandy 4y ago
    Yeah. Filling a perfectly developer-shaped hole in your team? Sure... Sort a stack of resumes by experience and education and contact the top n applicants. Want more than dense pull requests, snide code reviews, and lots of "well actually" interjections even when discussing things outside their expertise? You might be disappointed with your options if you're only booking interviews based on resumes.

erdos4d 4y ago

Same for any "personality test" you find in the hiring process. Huge red flag.

throwaway0asd 4y ago

I feel the exact opposite. At least they are measuring something vaguely objectively. Interviewing with most potential employers, at least in software, is like when children guess at picking players for sports teams while wearing a blindfold. Everything always seems to come down to biases applied non uniformly. Changing jobs is a big life investment. I would prefer it not be a blind date with one-way conversations from somebody likely abusive and neglectful looking for a surf to abuse. If the potential employer is instead interested in potential they are sending a signal they are willing to invest in you. Myers Briggs gets a lot of hate due to low precision but it’s a cheap and fast assessment. There are much better assessments of personality but they take more time and are more invasive.

cosmotic 4y ago
What if they were using astrology? Would that be better than nothing? I think it would be worse than nothing because it demonstrates the aren't competent enough to know when they fell for a scam.
- throwaway0asd 4y ago
  > What if they were using astrology? Then it would be guessing just the same as using no metric at all. This is only worse if the candidate is so naive as to believe they are of superior consideration than the value of a simple measure.
  - kasey_junk 4y ago
    Do we actually have any evidence that “when in the year you were born in” has worse statistical relevance than the admittedly weak relevance of personality tests? If not (and I’ve not seen it) then the candidate is just stating a preference for not working with companies that are lazy intellectually. That’s not naive that’s sensible.
    - throwaway0asd 4y ago
      Yes, Bridgewater.

coldtea 4y ago

I don't, because it means people in less fortunate industries that can't be pickers, but also programmers if a downturn comes, would have more companies pulling this shit to deal with...

mgarfias 4y ago

100%

ErikVandeWater 4y ago

MBTI isn't scientific, but that doesn't mean it isn't useful. If someone says a particular type fits them well, that helps you understand them quickly. And if they say the type they get doesn't describe them, then you don't need to use that information.

tyingq 4y ago
I remain skeptical. One example: "McCarley and Carskadon (1983) replicated these findings and demonstrated that across a 5-week test-retest interval, 50% of the participants received a different classification on one or more of the scales." https://www.researchgate.net/publication/232494957_Cautionary_comments_regarding_the_Myers-Briggs_Type_Indicator https://www.researchgate.net/publication/232494957_Cautionar...
- MichaelCollins 4y ago
  Each of the few times I've taken a Myers-Briggs test, I've gotten a completely different score each time. I don't think these tests measure any immutable attributes of personality, they measure preferences which can change with time and social circumstance. And getting a new job is obviously a change of social circumstance..
  - tyingq 4y ago
    Agree. And people also tend to answer in different ways (how I am, how people think I am, how I want people to perceive me, how I want to be, etc), depending on the circumstances and environment of the test. I don't think it has much value beyond some sort of throwaway catalyst for conversation.

hinkley 4y ago

I wouldn't work for someone who felt me up either, but by just walking out I'm not doing much to prevent that behavior from being normalized. Worse, it's the Market for Lemons. The jobs nobody takes get seen by more people because they stay on the market, and so they are over-represented amongst observers. Then the horrible people at your company start saying things like, "everybody is doing it". Everybody does a lot of things that nobody should be doing.

jahewson 4y ago

Yep. Here in California it’s illegal for companies to use such tests in hiring.

alfiedotwtf 4y ago

This. ... it's the same when someone asks what my horoscope is. Thanks for the red flag.