7 ms·

There have been several proposed bills that would create a pre-filled tax form system, but they always get quietly sidelined by tax industry lobbyists. I think

There have been several proposed bills that would create a pre-filled tax form system, but they always get quietly sidelined by tax industry lobbyists. I think a change in language would go a long way. The average American spends 13 hours and $200 per year to fill and file their taxes. This expense is itself a tax, albeit an indirect one. "This tax season, we want to save you money, and pre-filled tax forms will do just that." "The tax industry and their lobbyists fight tooth and nail to keep our tax code complex, and every year this costs you money. We want to fix that."

bluGill 4y ago
I've done my taxes by hand - pencil and paper (not even a calculator), and it was faster than filling in all the forms for the online tax software. I still use the software, because the last time I did things my hand I didn't transfer line 17a of form 2345b to line 28c of form 9876d and when that was caught it was a big hassle to correct (even though the IRS had the right numbers I still had to fill out an amended return and then send new forms to the state - the state of course had the right numbers too if they could be bothered to double check)
- ortusdux 4y ago
  There is another good talking point: "You already pay the IRS to do your taxes each year. That is how we know if the forms you submit us are correct. You shouldn't have to pay twice!"
- SoftTalker 4y ago
  Yeah really taxes could be much easier if you only had to submit what they don't already have. E.g. various deductions, non-W2 income, etc. They could then prep the final return and make it available for you to review and approve. All my problems with taxes over the years have amounted to similar mistakes - forgetting to transfer one amount from one form to another, or transposing numbers, etc.
- pclmulqdq 4y ago
  IMO there are basically two types of tax filers in the US: 1. People who really should file with pencil and paper (or excel, at most) 2. People who need an accountant Very few people fall in between these categories. The tax code is so complicated and annoying that even things like employer RSUs, mortgages, side hustles, and doing more than 20 stock trades in a year can be risky and weird.
hospitalJail 4y ago
> but they always get quietly sidelined by tax industry lobbyists. Turbo tax has spent 44 million dollars on lobbying. The American Medical Association(Physicians) have spent 500 million dollars on lobbying. (All of medical spent about 2 billion) Its good that people are angry that lobbyists control the nation, but for some reason we give the biggest lobbyists a pass. I don't see the outrage against the top 20 lobbyists, I do (rightly) see it against turbotax.
- ceejayoz 4y ago
  The medical industry is something like 20% of the economy. That’s not the case for the tax prep industry. Their lobbying is outsized, and able to be more narrowly focused on the couple things they really care about.
- UncleMeat 4y ago
  The medical industry is squarely in the crosshairs of "most broken and fucked up industry in the country" pretty much constantly. I agree that we often don't consider all sorts of other lobbying, but "our medical industry is broken because of corporations" is a pretty uncontroversial statement in the US.
  - spoils19 4y ago
    > The medical industry is squarely in the crosshairs of "most broken and fucked up industry in the country" pretty much constantly. The problem is that you speak for others when they hold the opposing view - our medical industry is evidence of the free market working at its best, and providing care for dollars with no hidden or extraneous fees.
    - d4mi3n 4y ago
      I’d love to see a thorough breakdown of what that opposing stance is. How is medicine, a service that is non-negotiable (e.g. you can die without it) in a position to work without problems in a completely free market? I’m any free market, you vote with your wallet, but that’s impossible if you don’t have time to switch providers or if forces outside of the free market dictate price? I’d love for us to just say “let the market sort it out”, but that generally requires presumptions that aren’t universally true for all goods or services.
houstonn 4y ago
I don't get it. Are lobbyists in control of congress? Aren't politicians the ones who pass bills? Or not pass bills in this case.
- xordon 4y ago
  > Are lobbyists in control of congress? Effectively, Yes. > Who passes bills? Technically the elected officials, but the bills themselves are usually written by lobbyists. Pressure from campaign donors, either directly or through lobbyists, or through "party" channels influence votes.
  - atlasunshrugged 4y ago
    I think usually is a stretch but some bills certainly are written by lobbyists (or think tanks/do tanks)
    - thayne 4y ago
      Even if they aren't written by Lobbyists I'd be surprised if most bills weren't influenced at least a little by at least one lobbyist group.
      - atlasunshrugged 4y ago
        Hmm, probably depends on what you define as a lobbyist. If you're writing a bill about education reform and including more tech in the classroom (just a hypothetical example) and ask the teacher's union, Brookings, and a major education company about what would be important to include or not include, would that be influenced by a lobbyist group?
  - rdevsrex 4y ago
    Yet another reason I wish the US were a real democracy. For all the good that checks and balances do, let's not forget that the founders were trying to entrench the power of their class.
tzs 4y ago
> There have been several proposed bills that would create a pre-filled tax form system, but they always get quietly sidelined by tax industry lobbyists. Not just industry lobbyists. Another big part is Grover Norquist's "Americans for Tax Reform" and similar groups. They have a lot of influence with about half of Congress. Here's a PowerPoint presentation [1] Norquist presented to the President's Advisory Panel on Federal Tax Reform in 2005 explaining their opposition to free filing. It's short so I'll paste the text from each slide here, with the slide titles marked with dashes, so people don't have to find a copy of PowerPoint (or LibreOffice or Keynote, which also can open it fine). ---- Implementing a “Return-Free” Tax Filing Scheme Presentation to the President’s Advisory Panel on Federal Tax Reform Grover Norquist President Americans for Tax Reform May 17, 2005 ---- The Current System Tax filing is citizen-based – taxpayers tell the government what they earned and owe ---- Under Return-Free Tax filing would be government-based – the burden would be on the taxpayer to challenge the government’s findings -- essentially an audit of every single American taxpayer ---- The Fox Would Guard the Henhouse The same agency that collects taxes would be the tax preparer – the motivation to maximize revenue would dominate both ends of the process ---- Return-Free is a Tax Increase The true goal is to increase revenue. The government knows few taxpayers will challenge its findings ---- Taxes Should be Visible Doing taxes keeps citizens aware of the tax burden imposed upon them by the government. A Return-Free scheme would allow the government to raise revenues invisibly ---- The California Example The State would not guarantee the accuracy of the returns it prepared – the taxpayer was removed from the process, but left with the responsibility The pilot program achieved 50% less uptake than planned Comments by CA officials tell us that the true aim was increased revenue [1] http://govinfo.library.unt.edu/taxreformpanel/meetings/docs/norquist_05172005.ppt http://govinfo.library.unt.edu/taxreformpanel/meetings/docs/...
- CrendKing 4y ago
  So much BS in these lines. For whatever record IRS already has on me, there is nothing my version of the filing can change. It's not like I can arbitrarily remove an 0 from my AGI and "challenge" IRS to accept my version. Then why demand me to repeat the duplicate information? "keeps citizens aware of the tax burden" - Sure if some people want to be aware, but I'm sure many people don't care about and can't reason about every tax change. Seriously, how many of you ever read a news about a new tax and "talked to your congress representative"? All these are just giant waste of time to majority of the population in the country.
sidewndr46 4y ago
Why legislate any of it? Just charge all 300+ million of US with tax evasion and allow everyone to enter a plea of no contest. The fine for this treachery can be to pay the exact amount of taxes I owe. No need for any laws to be changed anywhere. We can enter our plea via zoom call.

bluGill 4y ago

I've done my taxes by hand - pencil and paper (not even a calculator), and it was faster than filling in all the forms for the online tax software. I still use the software, because the last time I did things my hand I didn't transfer line 17a of form 2345b to line 28c of form 9876d and when that was caught it was a big hassle to correct (even though the IRS had the right numbers I still had to fill out an amended return and then send new forms to the state - the state of course had the right numbers too if they could be bothered to double check)

ortusdux 4y ago
There is another good talking point: "You already pay the IRS to do your taxes each year. That is how we know if the forms you submit us are correct. You shouldn't have to pay twice!"
SoftTalker 4y ago
Yeah really taxes could be much easier if you only had to submit what they don't already have. E.g. various deductions, non-W2 income, etc. They could then prep the final return and make it available for you to review and approve. All my problems with taxes over the years have amounted to similar mistakes - forgetting to transfer one amount from one form to another, or transposing numbers, etc.
pclmulqdq 4y ago
IMO there are basically two types of tax filers in the US: 1. People who really should file with pencil and paper (or excel, at most) 2. People who need an accountant Very few people fall in between these categories. The tax code is so complicated and annoying that even things like employer RSUs, mortgages, side hustles, and doing more than 20 stock trades in a year can be risky and weird.

hospitalJail 4y ago

> but they always get quietly sidelined by tax industry lobbyists. Turbo tax has spent 44 million dollars on lobbying. The American Medical Association(Physicians) have spent 500 million dollars on lobbying. (All of medical spent about 2 billion) Its good that people are angry that lobbyists control the nation, but for some reason we give the biggest lobbyists a pass. I don't see the outrage against the top 20 lobbyists, I do (rightly) see it against turbotax.

ceejayoz 4y ago
The medical industry is something like 20% of the economy. That’s not the case for the tax prep industry. Their lobbying is outsized, and able to be more narrowly focused on the couple things they really care about.
UncleMeat 4y ago
The medical industry is squarely in the crosshairs of "most broken and fucked up industry in the country" pretty much constantly. I agree that we often don't consider all sorts of other lobbying, but "our medical industry is broken because of corporations" is a pretty uncontroversial statement in the US.
- spoils19 4y ago
  > The medical industry is squarely in the crosshairs of "most broken and fucked up industry in the country" pretty much constantly. The problem is that you speak for others when they hold the opposing view - our medical industry is evidence of the free market working at its best, and providing care for dollars with no hidden or extraneous fees.
  - d4mi3n 4y ago
    I’d love to see a thorough breakdown of what that opposing stance is. How is medicine, a service that is non-negotiable (e.g. you can die without it) in a position to work without problems in a completely free market? I’m any free market, you vote with your wallet, but that’s impossible if you don’t have time to switch providers or if forces outside of the free market dictate price? I’d love for us to just say “let the market sort it out”, but that generally requires presumptions that aren’t universally true for all goods or services.

houstonn 4y ago

I don't get it. Are lobbyists in control of congress? Aren't politicians the ones who pass bills? Or not pass bills in this case.

xordon 4y ago
> Are lobbyists in control of congress? Effectively, Yes. > Who passes bills? Technically the elected officials, but the bills themselves are usually written by lobbyists. Pressure from campaign donors, either directly or through lobbyists, or through "party" channels influence votes.
- atlasunshrugged 4y ago
  I think usually is a stretch but some bills certainly are written by lobbyists (or think tanks/do tanks)
  - thayne 4y ago
    Even if they aren't written by Lobbyists I'd be surprised if most bills weren't influenced at least a little by at least one lobbyist group.
    - atlasunshrugged 4y ago
      Hmm, probably depends on what you define as a lobbyist. If you're writing a bill about education reform and including more tech in the classroom (just a hypothetical example) and ask the teacher's union, Brookings, and a major education company about what would be important to include or not include, would that be influenced by a lobbyist group?
- rdevsrex 4y ago
  Yet another reason I wish the US were a real democracy. For all the good that checks and balances do, let's not forget that the founders were trying to entrench the power of their class.

tzs 4y ago

> There have been several proposed bills that would create a pre-filled tax form system, but they always get quietly sidelined by tax industry lobbyists. Not just industry lobbyists. Another big part is Grover Norquist's "Americans for Tax Reform" and similar groups. They have a lot of influence with about half of Congress. Here's a PowerPoint presentation [1] Norquist presented to the President's Advisory Panel on Federal Tax Reform in 2005 explaining their opposition to free filing. It's short so I'll paste the text from each slide here, with the slide titles marked with dashes, so people don't have to find a copy of PowerPoint (or LibreOffice or Keynote, which also can open it fine). ---- Implementing a “Return-Free” Tax Filing Scheme Presentation to the President’s Advisory Panel on Federal Tax Reform Grover Norquist President Americans for Tax Reform May 17, 2005 ---- The Current System Tax filing is citizen-based – taxpayers tell the government what they earned and owe ---- Under Return-Free Tax filing would be government-based – the burden would be on the taxpayer to challenge the government’s findings -- essentially an audit of every single American taxpayer ---- The Fox Would Guard the Henhouse The same agency that collects taxes would be the tax preparer – the motivation to maximize revenue would dominate both ends of the process ---- Return-Free is a Tax Increase The true goal is to increase revenue. The government knows few taxpayers will challenge its findings ---- Taxes Should be Visible Doing taxes keeps citizens aware of the tax burden imposed upon them by the government. A Return-Free scheme would allow the government to raise revenues invisibly ---- The California Example The State would not guarantee the accuracy of the returns it prepared – the taxpayer was removed from the process, but left with the responsibility The pilot program achieved 50% less uptake than planned Comments by CA officials tell us that the true aim was increased revenue [1] http://govinfo.library.unt.edu/taxreformpanel/meetings/docs/norquist_05172005.ppt http://govinfo.library.unt.edu/taxreformpanel/meetings/docs/...

CrendKing 4y ago
So much BS in these lines. For whatever record IRS already has on me, there is nothing my version of the filing can change. It's not like I can arbitrarily remove an 0 from my AGI and "challenge" IRS to accept my version. Then why demand me to repeat the duplicate information? "keeps citizens aware of the tax burden" - Sure if some people want to be aware, but I'm sure many people don't care about and can't reason about every tax change. Seriously, how many of you ever read a news about a new tax and "talked to your congress representative"? All these are just giant waste of time to majority of the population in the country.

sidewndr46 4y ago

Why legislate any of it? Just charge all 300+ million of US with tax evasion and allow everyone to enter a plea of no contest. The fine for this treachery can be to pay the exact amount of taxes I owe. No need for any laws to be changed anywhere. We can enter our plea via zoom call.