15 ms·

The quiet cost of family caregiving

166 points by lxm 4y ago

ParksNet 4y ago
This is where voluntary euthanasia, as is being practiced in Canada, would be suitable option. I wouldn't want to continue living if I was a burden on society and my family.
- kelseyfrog 4y ago
  How do you think this would play out systemically? ie: what are the second-order systems-level changes that would occur if it was heterogenously applied?
- ad404b8a372f2b9 4y ago
  There are plenty of ways to go peacefully without the help of the state if you feel that way. I wouldn't look at Canada as a role model for euthanasia when not two weeks ago the program was in the news for inappropriately pushing it on vets.
- verisimi 4y ago
  Just as long as its voluntary... but how can you ever assure that? That there's no coercion, temporary depression, etc. So, you can't assure that... The real question is why are governments so keen to legalise euthanasia? My view is its about population management. It eases the expenses, clears out the dead wood, etc. Governments really do think it is right that they should choose how long their citizens are around for, even if they say otherwise - its about control. I don't even think it's the only strategy they have to manage the population, nor even the most common one.
  - lazyasciiart 4y ago
    My view is that nobody wants to prosecute someone for helping their terminally ill, seriously suffering parent/child/sister for ending their life.
    - lthornberry 4y ago
      That's not what the Canadian system is, though. The state kills people, and not just the terminally ill. There is lots of room for coercion, and more than a few disabled people have stories of someone trying to persuade them to consider MAiD even though they have never expressed any interest.
      - lazyasciiart 4y ago
        The system having flaws does not make me believe that politicians created it as population management.
- cogman10 4y ago
  I think the problem is one of consent. I would want to be euthanized if in my old age I lost who I am. That is, severe dementia or Alzheimer's. The moment I can't remember who my kid is, that's when I'd want to be euthanized because at that point, it's a living death. (I saw my mother go through this with her mother). However, at that point, I'll have lost the ability to consent to be euthanized. Heck, I might even fight someone trying to put me down.
  - anon291 4y ago
    If I were to apply this notion generally, the results would be absurd. The person who I was at age 14 is dead. The 30-year-old me is someone completely different. 14-year-old me would likely be aghast at the 30-year-old I've become, and would likely declare me insane and probably would have thought it better to die than to become who I am. Yet... here I am. The idea of making such a 'death wish' as a middle age person for your old age seems fine now. But the 80 year old you will be a different person than the 30-year-old, 40-year-old, 50-year-old, 60-year-old, and even 70-year-old you.
    - cogman10 4y ago
      Which is why I did not say you should apply this notion generally. Nor that you should allow a 14 year old make a death wish. There is such a thing as nuance in the world and we can use that to decide when a death wish could be executed. In fact, we already have some limited forms of such death wishes in the form of DNRs. That hasn't caused the extinction of humanity from 14yo fantasies and most people don't see it as some terrible slippery slope. If I had such a directive on myself I could revoke it at 50, 60, 70, or 80 while I still have my faculties. That moots the "I'm a different person" argument. But, I should point out how horrible dementia is. It's a disease with no cure that causes you to be a different person, one with partial memories of the world that is constantly upset and confused because nothing makes sense or lines up. Imagine constantly wandering out into the street trying to head back to your childhood home or trying to find a long dead spouse or childhood friend and wondering why you never see them anymore. Imagine constantly reliving the death of a spouse if someone can't redirect the questioning. Imagine waking up old and not remembering how you aged. Imagine not recognizing yourself in the mirror. Now imagine your child crying at your bedside because you don't remember them. (all stuff that happened to my grandmother). Yup, if I get dementia I'd be a different person, one that is in constant pain and confusion and causes constant pain to the ones I loved the most. I'll choose in that scenario for the rest of my life to be put down (even though I know it's not something I could necessarily choose).
- rr888 4y ago
  I completely would like the option of voluntary euthanasia myself, but I'm against legalizing it except for people with terminal diseases. Normalizing it puts people in a horrible position. If you're say 70 relatively healthy but maybe partially disabled and needs some care for 10-30 years. Maybe your kids love you but are working and have kids themselves so isn't easy to look after you. How about grandma takes the pill and eases the burden?
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - _carbyau_ 4y ago
    Yeah, you can put rules around consent but society will make up it's own "expectations and societal pressures".
  - CaptArmchair 4y ago
    I live in a country where this is fully legal for many years now. Access is non-trivial and there's a formal procedure with checks and balances. You don't need to be terminally ill, but you do need 3 doctors to agree that you are in a state where you're suffering can't readily be solved. There are also waiting periods as well as a psychological screening. Afterwards, each case is also reviewed by a national board. Most importantly: even to the very last second, the patient's decision matters and is final. And procedure requires to iterate reminding patient's agency over and over again. Having that moral debate out of the way, far more interesting is that euthanasia only ever has a place in a functioning healthcare system and social security system that puts the person's interests in the center. That is, by the time an elderly person do becomes eligible, it's never because they are a "burden" to their families or society. In fact, it's extended to psychiatric patients as well. People with severe clinical mental illness can be eligible. Paradoxically, it's been observed that a sizable chunk of patients do have the paperwork, but actually don't go through with it. Just the mere thought that it's a non-controversial, accepted option which negates taking matters in your own hands is enough for them to keep going. Again, it's not a "get out of jail free" card. You do need to go through a lengthy procedure with many evaluations, and only after all other options are exhausted, before you become eligible.
candiddevmike 4y ago
My parents are getting old and I don't know what is worse: watching them waste away in a retirement home where you visit periodically or watching them waste away at my home. Curious to hear what other folks are considering/doing.
- rs_rs_rs_rs_rs 4y ago
  I'm eastern european, before visiting Germany I was under the impression a retirement home was for old people that don't have any family left at all. I was blown away to find out kids will put their parents in retirements instead of living and taking care of them until they pass away. How is this acceptable for a sane society?
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - lotsofpulp 4y ago
    I do not think my kids owe me anything. I want them to prioritize their lives, their futures, and their kids over me. I base this on watching my parents (especially my mother) spend their entire youth taking care of my paternal grandparents, who lived far too long (101 and 97). To boot, my grandfather had my dad in his 50s, and my grandmother was 15 years younger than him, so my mother basically spent ages 20 to 50 as a maid/nurse/cook. They spoke no English (living in the US) and they did not drive, and they detracted from my parents’ ability to do what they wanted to do for their kids.
  - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
    > How is this acceptable for a sane society? A good starting point when trying to understand other cultures is to drop pretences of universal sanity or even morality. American culture values independence. Many senior citizens in old folks’ homes pay for their own stays. They’re choosing to be there. I’d start there to understand why this happens, and how it isn’t a story of heartless holidaying kids dumping their parents on someone else.
    - 4y ago
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
bob_theslob646 4y ago
It absolutely ridiculous that in the United States only a few states support assisted suicide. Don't even get me started on the costs related to take care of someone in a nursing home 5-8k minimum, per month.
- zdragnar 4y ago
  Ah yes, the old "imagine how much money we would save if you would just kill yourself already" play. Assisted suicide is terribly difficult to do properly; to certify that the decision was made free of external influence, and that the person is of sound mind at the time the decision is made is in most cases impossible. It's an incredibly cruel thing to do, and yet it keeps happening wherever it is allowed.
  - ypeterholmes 4y ago
    Nah, what's incredibly cruel is forcing people to spend their last months in extreme pain and/or enduring severe mental illness
    - zdragnar 4y ago
      What sort of severe mental illness would require assisted suicide yet leave a person capable of informed consent? Differentiating suicidal ideation due to mental illness from rational desire to die seems rather impossible. As for extreme pain, there is hospice. Calling assisted suicide medical care is so fraught with perverse incentives that it will certainly cause more harm than good.
andai 4y ago
https://archive.ph/9VIPZ https://archive.ph/9VIPZ
smeagull 4y ago
I have been able to insure lost income for my homemaker wife (in the case of serious illness), that reflects the value of her contributions to the household, and it's a very decent chunk of money.
- DoreenMichele 4y ago
  I knew a woman who was told by insurance sales guys "You? You don't merit insurance as a homemaker." Lots of people seriously undervalue what homemakers do.
  - tomcam 4y ago
    wtf? I mean really, wtf? I can't believe some of the shit you've gone through... and my kids call my early life a "horror story"
  - cc-d 4y ago
    >Lots of people seriously undervalue what homemakers do. This is a very serious issue with America's current manifestation of capitalism. You have people who are ESSENTIAL to society, EMTs and the like, not even being paid what they would make at walmart or mcdonalds To say nothing of teachers. I've been saying for years that becoming a US public school teacher is a massive mistake. Now the very same ignorant people who ran their teachers off by accusing them of teaching their kids to be gay or something like that, completely unironically, seem to be becoming only more relevant to the lives of normal people as time goes on. That's the sort of shit you should be afraid to say in public, it really doesn't matter if they actually believe it or even really know what they're saying. they genuinely believe the shit they see on the TV or are told by Alcoholic bob down at the local 7-eleven parking lot. and now that can't figure out why nobody wants to go to school for 4+ years, likely taking on a substantial amount of debt, to make less than a mcdonalds cashier while dealing with massive political pressure from truly shockingly ignorant people (depending on the state) I look back on what I remember seeing grown fucking adults say to/accuse teachers of, why would anybody who is genuinely educated ever, ever voluntarily choose to deal with that sort of (in some cases, quite literal) violent ignorance
Cupertino95014 4y ago
I have a relative who was devoted to caring for her mother, and when people asked what she did, she said "I'm working for The Lord." I'm not religious, myself, but I think that's a better way to think of it than dollars and cents, or the societal burden. As for "voluntary" euthanasia: don't even start. There is no such thing. Your old father doesn't want to be a burden, but he's helpless, and it's all too easy to "convince" him to take the pill.
- ivalm 4y ago
  Lots of people are driven by pain and discomfort, not guilted, into euthanasia.
  - Cupertino95014 4y ago
    And you know this how?
    - DoreenMichele 4y ago
      I spent 3.5 years in constant, excruciating pain. My condition is incurable. I'm for the right to die. I've spoken of this periodically on HN. I don't imagine I'm the only one. It can't be that hard to learn that there are people that feel this way -- that they just want their torment to end and death is the only apparent path out.
      - Cupertino95014 4y ago
        Anecdotes are not data. I'm sure I can find some people who'd say something like "I just wanted to die, but then miraculously things got better." When the police are trying to determine if a spouse was actually being beaten by the other, they get them alone. That's not perfect, but at least it's better than just saying "Are you OK? Good then, carry on." Until you give all the "voluntary" people: 1. the chance to say, without coercion, that that's what they want, with the aid of a counselor who acts as their advocate (since many of them are not articulate enough to speak for themselves). 2. an actual alternative that isn't artificially made to seem as horrible as possible. you have not established that it's "voluntary." In your case, Doreen, it sounds like you would pass #1, and #2 might be "a lot of drugs" with no other alternatives, so that does sound like it's really "voluntary."
DoreenMichele 4y ago
This being HN, I will note that helping seniors remember to take their medicine, eat better, and otherwise help them keep their independence is a huge and growing market that helps not only seniors but their relatives who otherwise have to take them in, etc, as outlined in the article.
- dnndev 4y ago
  Any reasonably cost solution for a 80 year old with one functioning arm to take her meds in such a way that also prevents a 5 year old from getting to them? This is what we are up against. Currently, I have a reminder on my phone to give them to her and watch her take them, but it’s not sustainable long term. Ideally the solutions is something that enables her to take the meds on her own.
  - DoreenMichele 4y ago
    Put them in a locked firesafe in an accessible medicine dispenser. Put the key to the firesafe on a chain around grandma's neck.
    - dnndev 4y ago
      Thank you for the idea. If I could rely on her to remember to close the door to the safe and lock it every time it would be a good option.
      - DoreenMichele 4y ago
        You can't call her and walk her through the steps or something? Put only one dose at a time in the firesafe so if it's left open, it's empty and no one cares?
        herdrick 4y ago
        Could one of these help? https://www.google.com/search?q=locked+home+safe+that+can+be+monitored+over+the+internet https://www.google.com/search?q=locked+home+safe+that+can+be...
tomcam 4y ago
One of the reasons I wanted to be a high earner as a kid was because I saw people go under due to medical expenses and expenses taking care of handicapped people. Fast forward a couple of decades and... I'm taking care of handicapped family members and paying a shit ton for an admittedly fantastic medical insurance plan. This would be extreme hardship for most people, but I was able to retire early & am able to handle the load. I will say there are tons and tons of programs for people in this position. I haven't taken advantage of any of them but most areas have some kind of "navigator" to help you find the ones best for you.
- ct0 4y ago
  Pretty incredible fore site even as a child. What would you say contributed to this thought?
  - paisawalla 4y ago
    In my case, we had a grandparent living with us for more than ten years when growing up. Living in a multigenerational household, and having friends and family who did the same, gave me the certainty that that's what I wanted for my family as well. It's not without its challenges, but it's unthinkable for me, my wife, or any of our extended family to put our parents in a nursing home. I have one cousin whose parents live about five houses up the road from his family -- that's an ideal situation AFAIC.
  - tomcam 4y ago
    My mom taught multiply handicapped kids and often brought them home for observation/further treatment. I grew up sort of thinking it was super common so I just needed to be ready. In retrospect I understand it's wacky thinking but hey, it worked out well.
dnndev 4y ago
My mother recently moved in with us. At the age of 80 she needs more help than we can provide. Her pension is high enough that she does not qualify for assistance but well below market rate for home health aides (help with daily activities such as shower, dressing, meds, etc) or a nursing home. Long story short, we are moving to another country where she can easily afford 24 hour care by a nurse. Home health (non-skilled) here in the states is about $25/hour, out of pocket that adds up quick.
- ilrwbwrkhv 4y ago
  Which country in a developed country offers that?
- nanl2053 4y ago
  Where will you go?
  - dnndev 4y ago
    Mexico
giantg2 4y ago
I've given up on promotions and stuff. I have a wife and kid with medical issues that saps my energy/focus and doesn't allow me to work extra hours with all my home responsibilities.
- ktzar 4y ago
  When, hopefully in a very long time, you're in your deadbead, you'll be happy you spent time with them and made an impact. You won't regret not using in more projects or longer hours.
  - bpodgursky 4y ago
    There's going to be regret and resentment no matter which he chooses. Let's not sugarcoat it.
jfoutz 4y ago
My parents are getting up there, they are halfway across the country. They’re divorced and a few hours apart. I have no idea what to do. They’re both healthy and active, but pushing 80. I guess we need to have some difficult talks. It’s terrifying.
kmonsen 4y ago
I have a question maybe others here have thought of or maybe done. Both me and my wife are from abroad, but live in CA. We have thought about getting some family members to come and live with us at times, but I am wondering about what about healthcare costs since none of our parents are US citizens. They are all healthy for now, but that might not be for long.
- insightcheck 4y ago
  Would travel health insurance be a possibility?
  - kmonsen 4y ago
    Yes but thinking more long term.
- sbaiddn 4y ago
  Without a green card don't even think about brining them in. Wait for them to get the green card (it does not take long for parents) Then they'll be eligible for Medicare after a year, I think. Before then its very dicey. Medicare also has decent coverage, but is super annoying to navigate.
golemiprague 4y ago
ballenf 4y ago
"Return to the workforce" is such a dystopian paradigm. What could be more important or more valuable to society than caring for those who need it? Why would "professional" caregivers be part of the workforce, but the loving care from a family member is considered valueless? Why aren't we lamenting that more of our elderly are shuffled off to die basically alone, instead of fretting over some percentage hit to the economy? I like the efforts by California and Biden to expand leave, but just take issue with the framing of parts of the article. (I wonder if the decision to exclude child rearing and other family contributions from GDP calculations was one of the most dehumanizing long-term forks in the world's history. But I'm far from well-informed on these complicated economics issues.)
reader_x 4y ago
In my experience two hurdles thwart honest conversations on this topic: 1.) Euphemisms- A social worker once told me that incontinence is frequently when families feel they can no longer keep an elderly person at home. It’s rough to talk about and to deal with. 2.) Guilt- Barring dementia, old people get to make choices, including bad ones, but adult children often take away those choices because they will feel guilty “if something happens.” Use the Golden Rule: it WILL be us soon. Having said that, I have no answers and try never to judge. Every situation is unique.
Sensorscall 4y ago
I am the CEO of Sensorscall, a tech startup out of Atlanta, and we are trying to address some of these pain points and costs via our CareAlert product. A few years I saw the agony my wife was going through looking after her mom who is independent and at the time was living alone. There was nothing out there that could tell her, that her mom is ok. That’s the reason we started developing the product called CareAlert. It lets you know they are ok, without a wearable or camera. Happy to answer any questions, not just about our work, but also about what we've learned on our journey in helping caregivers with elderly independent living care.
- pitched 4y ago
  I worked on a belt years ago that use gyros to measure gait and warn against fall risks. This CareAlert product is a really, really good idea. Use the smart home tech in the against them! Reminds me a bit of the people who triangulated wifi received signal strength to track laptop position. To remove the wearables, makes it much more likely to get the measurements. Makes the data more reliable because it’s less likely to be null. I’ve been using Eight Sleep’s sleep tracking gear for a while for this reason too.
- tehwebguy 4y ago
  > It lets you know they are ok, without a wearable or camera. Happy to answer any questions So what is it?
  - henshao 4y ago
    https://www.sensorscall.com/#HowItWorks https://www.sensorscall.com/#HowItWorks Plug in "night light" smart devices that detect pattern of life and deviations from it, reporting to a connected smart phone. I like it.
- m348e912 4y ago
  I like your product. Unique, unintrusive, and well thought-out. I wish you lots of success. I'd definitely consider it for my parents in the future. I know you aren't pitching your product here on HN, but I found the video on your site sensorscall.com really informative.
steve76 4y ago
[dead]
stillbourne 4y ago
I took care of my elder grandparents for the last 7 years of their lives. It was probably the worst thing I've ever had to go through in my life. There is nothing as soul crushing as watching people die in slow motion. It's been 3 years since they passed and I'm still a fucking wreck. I've had loved ones pass before in my life but its not the same when its someone close that suddenly passes vs elder care. My grandfather was a strong man, I remember hiking Pikes Peak with him when I was in high school. He beat me up the mountain, and I wasn't exactly out of shape at the time. Near the end his parkinsons was so bad I had to feed and change his diapers. Watching someone go from being the strongest and most independent person I've ever met to someone embarrassed to tears while I'm changing his diapers. That's not the same type of impact on loss.
rkenedi 4y ago
I'm actually a founder in this space trying to solve this exact problem. The (secondary) caregivers (specifically the sandwich generation - Gen X / millenials who have kids and aging parents) are ignored but often do the heavy lifting for their parents. It's often the eldest daughter who's saddled with figuring this out, and it affects presenteeism and absenteeism as the article states. Not to mention by 2035 there will be more >65 people than <18 for the first time in US history. Your input here would be most appreciated and ping me if you wanna talk about it! http://go.staid.co/initial http://go.staid.co/initial

166 points by lxm 4y ago

This is where voluntary euthanasia, as is being practiced in Canada, would be suitable option. I wouldn't want to continue living if I was a burden on society and my family.

kelseyfrog 4y ago
How do you think this would play out systemically? ie: what are the second-order systems-level changes that would occur if it was heterogenously applied?
ad404b8a372f2b9 4y ago
There are plenty of ways to go peacefully without the help of the state if you feel that way. I wouldn't look at Canada as a role model for euthanasia when not two weeks ago the program was in the news for inappropriately pushing it on vets.
verisimi 4y ago
Just as long as its voluntary... but how can you ever assure that? That there's no coercion, temporary depression, etc. So, you can't assure that... The real question is why are governments so keen to legalise euthanasia? My view is its about population management. It eases the expenses, clears out the dead wood, etc. Governments really do think it is right that they should choose how long their citizens are around for, even if they say otherwise - its about control. I don't even think it's the only strategy they have to manage the population, nor even the most common one.
- lazyasciiart 4y ago
  My view is that nobody wants to prosecute someone for helping their terminally ill, seriously suffering parent/child/sister for ending their life.
  - lthornberry 4y ago
    That's not what the Canadian system is, though. The state kills people, and not just the terminally ill. There is lots of room for coercion, and more than a few disabled people have stories of someone trying to persuade them to consider MAiD even though they have never expressed any interest.
    - lazyasciiart 4y ago
      The system having flaws does not make me believe that politicians created it as population management.
cogman10 4y ago
I think the problem is one of consent. I would want to be euthanized if in my old age I lost who I am. That is, severe dementia or Alzheimer's. The moment I can't remember who my kid is, that's when I'd want to be euthanized because at that point, it's a living death. (I saw my mother go through this with her mother). However, at that point, I'll have lost the ability to consent to be euthanized. Heck, I might even fight someone trying to put me down.
- anon291 4y ago
  If I were to apply this notion generally, the results would be absurd. The person who I was at age 14 is dead. The 30-year-old me is someone completely different. 14-year-old me would likely be aghast at the 30-year-old I've become, and would likely declare me insane and probably would have thought it better to die than to become who I am. Yet... here I am. The idea of making such a 'death wish' as a middle age person for your old age seems fine now. But the 80 year old you will be a different person than the 30-year-old, 40-year-old, 50-year-old, 60-year-old, and even 70-year-old you.
  - cogman10 4y ago
    Which is why I did not say you should apply this notion generally. Nor that you should allow a 14 year old make a death wish. There is such a thing as nuance in the world and we can use that to decide when a death wish could be executed. In fact, we already have some limited forms of such death wishes in the form of DNRs. That hasn't caused the extinction of humanity from 14yo fantasies and most people don't see it as some terrible slippery slope. If I had such a directive on myself I could revoke it at 50, 60, 70, or 80 while I still have my faculties. That moots the "I'm a different person" argument. But, I should point out how horrible dementia is. It's a disease with no cure that causes you to be a different person, one with partial memories of the world that is constantly upset and confused because nothing makes sense or lines up. Imagine constantly wandering out into the street trying to head back to your childhood home or trying to find a long dead spouse or childhood friend and wondering why you never see them anymore. Imagine constantly reliving the death of a spouse if someone can't redirect the questioning. Imagine waking up old and not remembering how you aged. Imagine not recognizing yourself in the mirror. Now imagine your child crying at your bedside because you don't remember them. (all stuff that happened to my grandmother). Yup, if I get dementia I'd be a different person, one that is in constant pain and confusion and causes constant pain to the ones I loved the most. I'll choose in that scenario for the rest of my life to be put down (even though I know it's not something I could necessarily choose).
rr888 4y ago
I completely would like the option of voluntary euthanasia myself, but I'm against legalizing it except for people with terminal diseases. Normalizing it puts people in a horrible position. If you're say 70 relatively healthy but maybe partially disabled and needs some care for 10-30 years. Maybe your kids love you but are working and have kids themselves so isn't easy to look after you. How about grandma takes the pill and eases the burden?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- _carbyau_ 4y ago
  Yeah, you can put rules around consent but society will make up it's own "expectations and societal pressures".
- CaptArmchair 4y ago
  I live in a country where this is fully legal for many years now. Access is non-trivial and there's a formal procedure with checks and balances. You don't need to be terminally ill, but you do need 3 doctors to agree that you are in a state where you're suffering can't readily be solved. There are also waiting periods as well as a psychological screening. Afterwards, each case is also reviewed by a national board. Most importantly: even to the very last second, the patient's decision matters and is final. And procedure requires to iterate reminding patient's agency over and over again. Having that moral debate out of the way, far more interesting is that euthanasia only ever has a place in a functioning healthcare system and social security system that puts the person's interests in the center. That is, by the time an elderly person do becomes eligible, it's never because they are a "burden" to their families or society. In fact, it's extended to psychiatric patients as well. People with severe clinical mental illness can be eligible. Paradoxically, it's been observed that a sizable chunk of patients do have the paperwork, but actually don't go through with it. Just the mere thought that it's a non-controversial, accepted option which negates taking matters in your own hands is enough for them to keep going. Again, it's not a "get out of jail free" card. You do need to go through a lengthy procedure with many evaluations, and only after all other options are exhausted, before you become eligible.

candiddevmike 4y ago

My parents are getting old and I don't know what is worse: watching them waste away in a retirement home where you visit periodically or watching them waste away at my home. Curious to hear what other folks are considering/doing.

rs_rs_rs_rs_rs 4y ago
I'm eastern european, before visiting Germany I was under the impression a retirement home was for old people that don't have any family left at all. I was blown away to find out kids will put their parents in retirements instead of living and taking care of them until they pass away. How is this acceptable for a sane society?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  I do not think my kids owe me anything. I want them to prioritize their lives, their futures, and their kids over me. I base this on watching my parents (especially my mother) spend their entire youth taking care of my paternal grandparents, who lived far too long (101 and 97). To boot, my grandfather had my dad in his 50s, and my grandmother was 15 years younger than him, so my mother basically spent ages 20 to 50 as a maid/nurse/cook. They spoke no English (living in the US) and they did not drive, and they detracted from my parents’ ability to do what they wanted to do for their kids.
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  > How is this acceptable for a sane society? A good starting point when trying to understand other cultures is to drop pretences of universal sanity or even morality. American culture values independence. Many senior citizens in old folks’ homes pay for their own stays. They’re choosing to be there. I’d start there to understand why this happens, and how it isn’t a story of heartless holidaying kids dumping their parents on someone else.
  - 4y ago

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

bob_theslob646 4y ago

It absolutely ridiculous that in the United States only a few states support assisted suicide. Don't even get me started on the costs related to take care of someone in a nursing home 5-8k minimum, per month.

zdragnar 4y ago
Ah yes, the old "imagine how much money we would save if you would just kill yourself already" play. Assisted suicide is terribly difficult to do properly; to certify that the decision was made free of external influence, and that the person is of sound mind at the time the decision is made is in most cases impossible. It's an incredibly cruel thing to do, and yet it keeps happening wherever it is allowed.
- ypeterholmes 4y ago
  Nah, what's incredibly cruel is forcing people to spend their last months in extreme pain and/or enduring severe mental illness
  - zdragnar 4y ago
    What sort of severe mental illness would require assisted suicide yet leave a person capable of informed consent? Differentiating suicidal ideation due to mental illness from rational desire to die seems rather impossible. As for extreme pain, there is hospice. Calling assisted suicide medical care is so fraught with perverse incentives that it will certainly cause more harm than good.

andai 4y ago

https://archive.ph/9VIPZ https://archive.ph/9VIPZ

smeagull 4y ago

I have been able to insure lost income for my homemaker wife (in the case of serious illness), that reflects the value of her contributions to the household, and it's a very decent chunk of money.

DoreenMichele 4y ago
I knew a woman who was told by insurance sales guys "You? You don't merit insurance as a homemaker." Lots of people seriously undervalue what homemakers do.
- tomcam 4y ago
  wtf? I mean really, wtf? I can't believe some of the shit you've gone through... and my kids call my early life a "horror story"
- cc-d 4y ago
  >Lots of people seriously undervalue what homemakers do. This is a very serious issue with America's current manifestation of capitalism. You have people who are ESSENTIAL to society, EMTs and the like, not even being paid what they would make at walmart or mcdonalds To say nothing of teachers. I've been saying for years that becoming a US public school teacher is a massive mistake. Now the very same ignorant people who ran their teachers off by accusing them of teaching their kids to be gay or something like that, completely unironically, seem to be becoming only more relevant to the lives of normal people as time goes on. That's the sort of shit you should be afraid to say in public, it really doesn't matter if they actually believe it or even really know what they're saying. they genuinely believe the shit they see on the TV or are told by Alcoholic bob down at the local 7-eleven parking lot. and now that can't figure out why nobody wants to go to school for 4+ years, likely taking on a substantial amount of debt, to make less than a mcdonalds cashier while dealing with massive political pressure from truly shockingly ignorant people (depending on the state) I look back on what I remember seeing grown fucking adults say to/accuse teachers of, why would anybody who is genuinely educated ever, ever voluntarily choose to deal with that sort of (in some cases, quite literal) violent ignorance

Cupertino95014 4y ago

I have a relative who was devoted to caring for her mother, and when people asked what she did, she said "I'm working for The Lord." I'm not religious, myself, but I think that's a better way to think of it than dollars and cents, or the societal burden. As for "voluntary" euthanasia: don't even start. There is no such thing. Your old father doesn't want to be a burden, but he's helpless, and it's all too easy to "convince" him to take the pill.

ivalm 4y ago
Lots of people are driven by pain and discomfort, not guilted, into euthanasia.
- Cupertino95014 4y ago
  And you know this how?
  - DoreenMichele 4y ago
    I spent 3.5 years in constant, excruciating pain. My condition is incurable. I'm for the right to die. I've spoken of this periodically on HN. I don't imagine I'm the only one. It can't be that hard to learn that there are people that feel this way -- that they just want their torment to end and death is the only apparent path out.
    - Cupertino95014 4y ago
      Anecdotes are not data. I'm sure I can find some people who'd say something like "I just wanted to die, but then miraculously things got better." When the police are trying to determine if a spouse was actually being beaten by the other, they get them alone. That's not perfect, but at least it's better than just saying "Are you OK? Good then, carry on." Until you give all the "voluntary" people: 1. the chance to say, without coercion, that that's what they want, with the aid of a counselor who acts as their advocate (since many of them are not articulate enough to speak for themselves). 2. an actual alternative that isn't artificially made to seem as horrible as possible. you have not established that it's "voluntary." In your case, Doreen, it sounds like you would pass #1, and #2 might be "a lot of drugs" with no other alternatives, so that does sound like it's really "voluntary."

DoreenMichele 4y ago

This being HN, I will note that helping seniors remember to take their medicine, eat better, and otherwise help them keep their independence is a huge and growing market that helps not only seniors but their relatives who otherwise have to take them in, etc, as outlined in the article.

dnndev 4y ago
Any reasonably cost solution for a 80 year old with one functioning arm to take her meds in such a way that also prevents a 5 year old from getting to them? This is what we are up against. Currently, I have a reminder on my phone to give them to her and watch her take them, but it’s not sustainable long term. Ideally the solutions is something that enables her to take the meds on her own.
- DoreenMichele 4y ago
  Put them in a locked firesafe in an accessible medicine dispenser. Put the key to the firesafe on a chain around grandma's neck.
  - dnndev 4y ago
    Thank you for the idea. If I could rely on her to remember to close the door to the safe and lock it every time it would be a good option.
    - DoreenMichele 4y ago
      You can't call her and walk her through the steps or something? Put only one dose at a time in the firesafe so if it's left open, it's empty and no one cares?
      - herdrick 4y ago
        Could one of these help? https://www.google.com/search?q=locked+home+safe+that+can+be+monitored+over+the+internet https://www.google.com/search?q=locked+home+safe+that+can+be...

tomcam 4y ago

One of the reasons I wanted to be a high earner as a kid was because I saw people go under due to medical expenses and expenses taking care of handicapped people. Fast forward a couple of decades and... I'm taking care of handicapped family members and paying a shit ton for an admittedly fantastic medical insurance plan. This would be extreme hardship for most people, but I was able to retire early & am able to handle the load. I will say there are tons and tons of programs for people in this position. I haven't taken advantage of any of them but most areas have some kind of "navigator" to help you find the ones best for you.

ct0 4y ago
Pretty incredible fore site even as a child. What would you say contributed to this thought?
- paisawalla 4y ago
  In my case, we had a grandparent living with us for more than ten years when growing up. Living in a multigenerational household, and having friends and family who did the same, gave me the certainty that that's what I wanted for my family as well. It's not without its challenges, but it's unthinkable for me, my wife, or any of our extended family to put our parents in a nursing home. I have one cousin whose parents live about five houses up the road from his family -- that's an ideal situation AFAIC.
- tomcam 4y ago
  My mom taught multiply handicapped kids and often brought them home for observation/further treatment. I grew up sort of thinking it was super common so I just needed to be ready. In retrospect I understand it's wacky thinking but hey, it worked out well.

dnndev 4y ago

My mother recently moved in with us. At the age of 80 she needs more help than we can provide. Her pension is high enough that she does not qualify for assistance but well below market rate for home health aides (help with daily activities such as shower, dressing, meds, etc) or a nursing home. Long story short, we are moving to another country where she can easily afford 24 hour care by a nurse. Home health (non-skilled) here in the states is about $25/hour, out of pocket that adds up quick.

ilrwbwrkhv 4y ago
Which country in a developed country offers that?
nanl2053 4y ago
Where will you go?
- dnndev 4y ago
  Mexico

giantg2 4y ago

I've given up on promotions and stuff. I have a wife and kid with medical issues that saps my energy/focus and doesn't allow me to work extra hours with all my home responsibilities.

ktzar 4y ago
When, hopefully in a very long time, you're in your deadbead, you'll be happy you spent time with them and made an impact. You won't regret not using in more projects or longer hours.
- bpodgursky 4y ago
  There's going to be regret and resentment no matter which he chooses. Let's not sugarcoat it.

jfoutz 4y ago

My parents are getting up there, they are halfway across the country. They’re divorced and a few hours apart. I have no idea what to do. They’re both healthy and active, but pushing 80. I guess we need to have some difficult talks. It’s terrifying.

kmonsen 4y ago

I have a question maybe others here have thought of or maybe done. Both me and my wife are from abroad, but live in CA. We have thought about getting some family members to come and live with us at times, but I am wondering about what about healthcare costs since none of our parents are US citizens. They are all healthy for now, but that might not be for long.

insightcheck 4y ago
Would travel health insurance be a possibility?
- kmonsen 4y ago
  Yes but thinking more long term.
sbaiddn 4y ago
Without a green card don't even think about brining them in. Wait for them to get the green card (it does not take long for parents) Then they'll be eligible for Medicare after a year, I think. Before then its very dicey. Medicare also has decent coverage, but is super annoying to navigate.

golemiprague 4y ago

ballenf 4y ago

"Return to the workforce" is such a dystopian paradigm. What could be more important or more valuable to society than caring for those who need it? Why would "professional" caregivers be part of the workforce, but the loving care from a family member is considered valueless? Why aren't we lamenting that more of our elderly are shuffled off to die basically alone, instead of fretting over some percentage hit to the economy? I like the efforts by California and Biden to expand leave, but just take issue with the framing of parts of the article. (I wonder if the decision to exclude child rearing and other family contributions from GDP calculations was one of the most dehumanizing long-term forks in the world's history. But I'm far from well-informed on these complicated economics issues.)

reader_x 4y ago

In my experience two hurdles thwart honest conversations on this topic: 1.) Euphemisms- A social worker once told me that incontinence is frequently when families feel they can no longer keep an elderly person at home. It’s rough to talk about and to deal with. 2.) Guilt- Barring dementia, old people get to make choices, including bad ones, but adult children often take away those choices because they will feel guilty “if something happens.” Use the Golden Rule: it WILL be us soon. Having said that, I have no answers and try never to judge. Every situation is unique.

Sensorscall 4y ago

I am the CEO of Sensorscall, a tech startup out of Atlanta, and we are trying to address some of these pain points and costs via our CareAlert product. A few years I saw the agony my wife was going through looking after her mom who is independent and at the time was living alone. There was nothing out there that could tell her, that her mom is ok. That’s the reason we started developing the product called CareAlert. It lets you know they are ok, without a wearable or camera. Happy to answer any questions, not just about our work, but also about what we've learned on our journey in helping caregivers with elderly independent living care.

pitched 4y ago
I worked on a belt years ago that use gyros to measure gait and warn against fall risks. This CareAlert product is a really, really good idea. Use the smart home tech in the against them! Reminds me a bit of the people who triangulated wifi received signal strength to track laptop position. To remove the wearables, makes it much more likely to get the measurements. Makes the data more reliable because it’s less likely to be null. I’ve been using Eight Sleep’s sleep tracking gear for a while for this reason too.
tehwebguy 4y ago
> It lets you know they are ok, without a wearable or camera. Happy to answer any questions So what is it?
- henshao 4y ago
  https://www.sensorscall.com/#HowItWorks https://www.sensorscall.com/#HowItWorks Plug in "night light" smart devices that detect pattern of life and deviations from it, reporting to a connected smart phone. I like it.
m348e912 4y ago
I like your product. Unique, unintrusive, and well thought-out. I wish you lots of success. I'd definitely consider it for my parents in the future. I know you aren't pitching your product here on HN, but I found the video on your site sensorscall.com really informative.

steve76 4y ago

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stillbourne 4y ago

I took care of my elder grandparents for the last 7 years of their lives. It was probably the worst thing I've ever had to go through in my life. There is nothing as soul crushing as watching people die in slow motion. It's been 3 years since they passed and I'm still a fucking wreck. I've had loved ones pass before in my life but its not the same when its someone close that suddenly passes vs elder care. My grandfather was a strong man, I remember hiking Pikes Peak with him when I was in high school. He beat me up the mountain, and I wasn't exactly out of shape at the time. Near the end his parkinsons was so bad I had to feed and change his diapers. Watching someone go from being the strongest and most independent person I've ever met to someone embarrassed to tears while I'm changing his diapers. That's not the same type of impact on loss.

rkenedi 4y ago

I'm actually a founder in this space trying to solve this exact problem. The (secondary) caregivers (specifically the sandwich generation - Gen X / millenials who have kids and aging parents) are ignored but often do the heavy lifting for their parents. It's often the eldest daughter who's saddled with figuring this out, and it affects presenteeism and absenteeism as the article states. Not to mention by 2035 there will be more >65 people than <18 for the first time in US history. Your input here would be most appreciated and ping me if you wanna talk about it! http://go.staid.co/initial http://go.staid.co/initial