19 ms·

CERN drafts plans to idle accelerators due to Europe’s energy crunch

185 points by bluish29 4y ago

chaorace 4y ago
Makes sense. So much of the work around CERN already happens independent of whether the collider is running or not, so skipping a rough season seems like the sensible thing to do (even from a purely inward facing cost/benefit standpoint). It's a shame that the timing just had to coincide with the start of LHC Run 3, though. They only managed to generate around 5-6 months of data after 3 years of upgrades. I imagine that should still be enough to keep the scientists busy this Winter, though.
- aaron695 4y ago
slackfan 4y ago
Ah good, so we can stop shifting timelines every few weeks.
- tsukurimashou 4y ago
  EL PSY KONGROO
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
throwaway5752 4y ago
- sph 4y ago
  All wars are terrible. This one hurts a little more because it's closer to home (to many HN users). But it's no worse than any other wars that are fought daily across the globe. Fuck wars and the old *** in government offices that declare them.
  - ars 4y ago
    No, this one hurts more because it's so completely unnecessary. Wars are more often fought because people have differences that are actually legitimate, meaning reasonable people can at least see the point of view of each side. Obviously all war is terrible, but at least usually you can see a reason for the war. This one though? There was absolutely no reason for it. NATO was not actually expanding. Russia has no chance of occupying Ukraine and keeping it. What are Russia's goals? No one can even say, not even Russia.
    - danbruc 4y ago
      This one though? There was absolutely no reason for it. Of course there was, Ukraine becoming a NATO member. Just read Putin's address [1] after the invasion started, it is spelled out in no uncertain terms. You may disagree whether this warrants are war but this does not change the fact that there is a reason and Russia consistently said so for decades. [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-02-24/full-transcript-vladimir-putin-s-televised-address-to-russia-on-ukraine-feb-24 https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-02-24/full-tran...
      - ForHackernews 4y ago
        You can't just accept a liar's rationalizations at face value. Ukraine was absolutely not becoming a NATO member. Before Februrary, nobody considered that realistic possibility for decades, at least. Ironically, thanks to Putin's war, Ukrainian NATO membership is starting to look more plausible (and Swedish/Finnish membership is virtually assured).
        danbruc 4y ago
        See my other comments addressing your point. And I of course agree, to some extent this backfired. But I am not sure that Russia would not still consider this a win overall. Not all neighbors are equal if you take things like geography into account, so I would not rule out the possibility that Sweden and Finnland were factored in.
        4y ago
- Proven 4y ago
  [dead]
- 4gotunameagain 4y ago
  - mongol 4y ago
    This is the same as saying fuck Russias neighbours for joining NATO. They appearently have no agency on their own?
  - curious_cat_163 4y ago
    Russia, as a state, has legitimate concerns around the expansion of NATO. There are thousands of alternate universes where these concerns could have been addressed peacefully. Russia is a great state with a lot of history and heritage and its position in the global pecking order should be solidified. However, NATO expansion does not give Russia a right to attack a sovereign country and attack civilian population centers with no regard to human life. Russia has been an aggressor in this. No matter where our political sympathies lie, we have to call a spade a spade. Russia started this war.
    - mongol 4y ago
      Russia's war against Ukraine buries its reputation deep, deep into the ground. Putin completely destroys whatever reputation as a "great state" Russia may have had.
  - Moldoteck 4y ago
    I think it's more about Ukraine having enough resources of gas and oil to replace russia for eu and oh surprise Russia now has control over exact those zones full of resources (south and east). Nato is not a concern(Finland proves this) because, check, Russia has enough nukes to kill all living beings on earth and still not use all of them
  - mechanical_bear 4y ago
    NATO doesn’t expand on its own. Sovereign nations seek to join for their own reasons. As a sovereign nation, Ukraine had the ability to seek membership.
- HorizonXP 4y ago
  I agree with this wholeheartedly, but I also think some of the burden should be placed on Europe’s leaders for not preparing more thoroughly for this scenario. Trade is a great tool to mitigate and avoid conflicts like these, but the power balance was shifted too far into Russia’s favour here. Energy policy should have included means of establishing sovereignty over energy sources. Shutting down nuclear reactors was probably not the best move. Russian gas was cheaper, until it wasn’t. In hindsight, keeping domestic sources available would have been wise. Other policies to establish Russian economic dependence upon the West would have helped too. That said, only so much you can do with an autocrat.
  - LatteLazy 4y ago
    You're not wrong but also no one can magic up energy out of nowhere...
    - acid__ 4y ago
      I’m glad to see a shift in sentiments from Germany about nuclear power [0]. There have been warnings about energy dependence on Russia for years [1], maybe not long enough to spin up more nuclear plants but certainly enough time to make good progress on them. [0] https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/05/world/europe/germany-extend-life-nuclear-reactors.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/05/world/europe/germany-exte... [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2018/09/25/trump-accused-germany-becoming-totally-dependent-russian-energy-un-germans-just-smirked/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2018/09/25/trump-accuse...
      - isbvhodnvemrwvn 4y ago
        Don't mistake this for shift in sentiments. They are not going to continue using nuclear energy in mid or long term, just postpone its shutdown.
    - michaelt 4y ago
      No, but Germany started a shutdown of nuclear power plants and the laying of the Nordstream gas pipeline as recently as 2011. I appreciate that major infrastructure projects take a long time to build - but a gas-heavy Russia-dependent energy mix was the deliberate choice very recently.
- that_guy_iain 4y ago
  I personally think NATO has some blame to take. Ukraine begged to join NATO for years. NATO said no and played a slow game. All NATO had to do was say yes. Russia would have never invaded a NATO country. But they did invade a country to make sure they didn't join NATO.
  - danbruc 4y ago
    I also tend to put some blame on NATO, but I think they should not have offered a membership or only one with additional rules like in the case of Norway. The prospect of Ukraine joining NATO is what forced Russia to act to possibly prevent a NATO membership, as you said this would have become a lot more impossible to do once Ukraine had joined NATO.
    - dragonwriter 4y ago
      > The prospect of Ukraine joining NATO is what forced Russia to act to possibly prevent a NATO membership It didn't force Russia to do anything.
      - danbruc 4y ago
        If you consider Ukraine becoming a NATO member a threat to Russian security that has to be prevented at all costs, then you are forced to act if your opposition is ignored. Besides this there are essentially only two options - Ukraine does not become a NATO member or you convince Russia that a Ukrainian NATO membership is not a threat to its security. EDIT: As a thought experiment entertain the idea of a partnership between Mexico and China where in exchange for economic support China gets a few military bases in northern Mexico, just a few thousand soldiers and tanks and maybe an airfield here or there. Take into account the recent US reaction in response to a partnership between the Solomon Islands and China [1]. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/23/us-warns-solomon-islands-against-china-military-base-as-australian-mps-trade-blame https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/23/us-warns-solom...
        deleted 4y ago
- lnsru 4y ago
  It’s not the president putin. It’s corrupt Germans who took russian money and build insane dependency on cheap russian gas. Now the card house is falling apart and the general population must pay the price. My gas bill increased by ~2,8x. On the other hand russians have nothing left to blackmail Europe.
  - ghostwriter 4y ago
    > On the other hand russians have nothing left to blackmail Europe. that's a very naive way of looking at economic interdependence, even more naive than the view of politicians half a year ago that led Europe to the current energy crisis. How about european aerospace industry's need for titanium and aluminium? [1] There are several important resource markets where Russia has a significant share of the supply pie [2]. Metals and fertilizers to name a few. Politicians know that but are acting as if they don't, and the public has better start asking them for more than just knee-jerk reactions with economic sanctions that mostly hurt key european industries and numerous households that depend on these industries. [1] > Airbus has said it relies on Russia for half its titanium needs, while a U.S. industry source said VSMPO-AVISMA provided a third of Boeing's requirements: https://www.reuters.com/business/importance-russian-titanium-global-industry-2022-03-01/ https://www.reuters.com/business/importance-russian-titanium... [2] https://www.oecd.org/ukraine-hub/policy-responses/the-supply-of-critical-raw-materials-endangered-by-russia-s-war-on-ukraine-e01ac7be/ https://www.oecd.org/ukraine-hub/policy-responses/the-supply...
    - lnsru 4y ago
      Aluminium and titanium can be sourced from other sources. And they don’t depend on complex pipelines for delivery. It will be more expensive for sure.
- aydnina 4y ago
  - mechanical_bear 4y ago
    Illegal? How so?
    - aydnina 4y ago
      - effie 4y ago
        Are you sure? What happened to sovereignity of countries in choosing who they do business with? Can you provide some legal rationale?
        aydnina 4y ago
- dang 4y ago
  Please don't post offtopic flamewar comments (including war flamewar comments) to HN, even if you feel strongly and your feelings are justified. It's not what this site is for, and can only destroy what it is for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - throwaway5752 4y ago
    I just came back to this being quite a bit more controversial than I intended. I wrote it frustrated by the story and the commenters here who were ignoring the elephant in the room. Please detach it from the story, if it is possible, or otherwise make it so it doesn't cause further harm. Whatever you feel is appropriate. In my defense, though, while I can see it being inflammatory it is definitely not offtopic. This is directly why CERN is being idled, and the article states it plainly: "Europe's energy picture remains clouded by the war in Ukraine. Moscow's invasion of its neighbour have triggered sweeping sanctions from the West, led to a cut in energy supplies from Russia and stoked inflation. On September 2, Russia indefinitely suspended natural gas flows through the Nord Stream 1 pipeline, tightening the squeeze on Europe’s energy supplies. The ongoing economic battle between Moscow and Brussels has raised the prospects of recession and energy rationing in some of the continent’s wealthiest countries."
curious_cat_163 4y ago
This is what you get when you rely on fossil fuels as an energy source in 2022. The truth is, the geographical distribution of where the fossil fuels have been discovered is completely non-uniform. Such non-uniform distribution leads to conflict among humans, over and over again.
- deburo 4y ago
  >This is what you get when you rely on fossil fuels as an energy source in 2022. The root cause was to source your energy needs from an old enemy. And it seems that what made this happen was the green transition at home.
- remify 4y ago
  France does not rely on fossil fuel for electricity
  - matbatt38 4y ago
    Lol that's not true Also LHC is not on France
  - curious_cat_163 4y ago
    It does. At least, according to this source: https://ourworldindata.org/energy/country/france https://ourworldindata.org/energy/country/france Renewables and Nuclear make up about 50% of the total. It may very well grow, but there will be a time lag because French institutions are not known for their expedience.
classified 4y ago
I'd like to see cryptominers reduce their frivolous and wasteful activities.
- kennend3 4y ago
  If history has taught us anything it is this - As long as there is money to be made people will literally destroy anything to get it.
sschueller 4y ago
From what I recall the last time I was there is that they tune it down quite a bit in winter anyway because of electricity that is needed else where in France. Also from my understanding most of the electricity that is generated for CERN is by nuclear power plants and since so many of those are currently under maintenance they may need the power they do have to supply export agreements etc.
- seren 4y ago
  EDF was a net electricity exporter, until 2022, but this year France is already importing quite a lot of electricity currently, due to most nuclear reactors being still in maintenance. They are supposed to be restarted before winter but I would not bet on it https://www.rte-france.com/en/eco2mix/cross-border-electricity-trading https://www.rte-france.com/en/eco2mix/cross-border-electrici...
  - shapefrog 4y ago
    - hef19898 4y ago
      As far as connected electricity grids go, you import from those memebers that have a surplus and export when you have one. The country of origin has nothing to do with any of it.
      - shapefrog 4y ago
        hef19898 4y ago
        Nice analogy, unfortunately that is not how electricity generation, consumption and grid management works.
  - stuaxo 4y ago
wcarss 4y ago
A little bit of a feeling of the lamps going out all over Europe in this one very big, very unusual lamp's dimming.
- mschuster91 4y ago
  Europe is under an absurd, unprecedented energy crunch at the moment: The worst problem is that the French nuclear reactors have massive issues - over half their capacity is currently offline because of massive defects or barely producing due to a lack of cooling water [1]. That same drought also impacted Swiss nuclear plants [2] and Italian hydro power [3]. On top of that, the German gas peaker plants that used to be relatively cheap are now, thanks to the Russian invasion, extremely expensive - but since the French don't have an alternative, they pay absurd amounts of essentially government-funded money [4] on the spot markets, enough to make even the expensive gas peakers worth it, which in turn drives up the price for anyone else on the shared European electricity grid. And to make the situation even worse than it already is, this is not just a spot market crisis. There is no indication at all that the situation in France will clear up any time soon - to the contrary, it will get exponentially worse in winter, as the majority of France uses electric heating - and the drought induced hydro crunch will need many months of constant rainfall to refill all the natural reservoirs before the plants can act at capacity again. This makes long-term electricity futures absurdly expensive as well, and the price hike of these futures hasn't even begun to reach electricity consumers yet. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32605337 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32605337 [2] https://www.swr.de/swraktuell/baden-wuerttemberg/suedbaden/akw-beznau-muss-wegen-hitze-produktion-drosseln-100.html https://www.swr.de/swraktuell/baden-wuerttemberg/suedbaden/a... [3] https://www.politico.eu/article/europe-scorching-summer-heatwave-hydropower-plant/ https://www.politico.eu/article/europe-scorching-summer-heat... [4] https://www.lemonde.fr/en/energies/article/2022/07/28/energy-price-caps-push-french-power-giant-edf-into-record-loss_5991713_98.html https://www.lemonde.fr/en/energies/article/2022/07/28/energy...
  - giantg2 4y ago
    You would think the countries with nuclear carriers would park them at home and figure a way to hook them into the grid.
squarefoot 4y ago
I have plenty of karma to burn, so here is some information coming from reputable sources that also suggest where the problem really is. https://ccaf.io/cbeci/index/comparisons https://ccaf.io/cbeci/index/comparisons https://edition.cnn.com/videos/business/2022/04/25/watt-dnt-bitcoin-mining-electricity-washington-nr-vpx.cnn/video/playlists/project-planet/ https://edition.cnn.com/videos/business/2022/04/25/watt-dnt-...
- GekkePrutser 4y ago
  What does Bitcoin energy consumption have to do with CERN? Don't forget most mining is done in China, not Europe. And your first link mainly tries to show that Bitcoin consumption isn't a lot compared to other uses. So I don't really see the point.
  - squarefoot 4y ago
    > What does Bitcoin energy consumption have to do with CERN? Priorities. Bitcoin (as other POW based cryptocurrencies) waste a huge load of energy, with a single Bitcoin transaction that cost over US$100 of energy (old estimation when energy costs were a lot lower) and mining farms sprouting everywhere hosting thousands of nodes of which each one draws 2000-5000 Watts, just like one or two heaters, but kept on 24/7 with their fans pumping heat into the atmosphere. My point is that before looking at CERN, maybe, just maybe, they should look at other places where energy is wasted by turning it directly into money (and heat), also without creating businesses and jobs.
    - GekkePrutser 4y ago
      Aha I see. I don't think that's very doable though. Bitcoin ASICs only stay relevant for a short time, when they're surpassed by more efficient models, and no longer economically viable. I doubt the owners of these are willing to turn them off and let their investment expire without using them. Also, the increasing cost of electricity dramatically reduces that write-off period. Besides that, CERN is mostly publicly funded and one huge consumer so the government has lots of control over them which they don't have over miners, which are also more fragmented between many different operators. And the research CERN do is not time critical. So I still think it makes sense. CERN is one thing they can actually do without too much trouble and has a relatively large effect.

185 points by bluish29 4y ago

Makes sense. So much of the work around CERN already happens independent of whether the collider is running or not, so skipping a rough season seems like the sensible thing to do (even from a purely inward facing cost/benefit standpoint). It's a shame that the timing just had to coincide with the start of LHC Run 3, though. They only managed to generate around 5-6 months of data after 3 years of upgrades. I imagine that should still be enough to keep the scientists busy this Winter, though.

aaron695 4y ago

slackfan 4y ago

Ah good, so we can stop shifting timelines every few weeks.

tsukurimashou 4y ago
EL PSY KONGROO
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

throwaway5752 4y ago

sph 4y ago
All wars are terrible. This one hurts a little more because it's closer to home (to many HN users). But it's no worse than any other wars that are fought daily across the globe. Fuck wars and the old *** in government offices that declare them.
- ars 4y ago
  No, this one hurts more because it's so completely unnecessary. Wars are more often fought because people have differences that are actually legitimate, meaning reasonable people can at least see the point of view of each side. Obviously all war is terrible, but at least usually you can see a reason for the war. This one though? There was absolutely no reason for it. NATO was not actually expanding. Russia has no chance of occupying Ukraine and keeping it. What are Russia's goals? No one can even say, not even Russia.
  - danbruc 4y ago
    This one though? There was absolutely no reason for it. Of course there was, Ukraine becoming a NATO member. Just read Putin's address [1] after the invasion started, it is spelled out in no uncertain terms. You may disagree whether this warrants are war but this does not change the fact that there is a reason and Russia consistently said so for decades. [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-02-24/full-transcript-vladimir-putin-s-televised-address-to-russia-on-ukraine-feb-24 https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-02-24/full-tran...
    - ForHackernews 4y ago
      You can't just accept a liar's rationalizations at face value. Ukraine was absolutely not becoming a NATO member. Before Februrary, nobody considered that realistic possibility for decades, at least. Ironically, thanks to Putin's war, Ukrainian NATO membership is starting to look more plausible (and Swedish/Finnish membership is virtually assured).
      - danbruc 4y ago
        See my other comments addressing your point. And I of course agree, to some extent this backfired. But I am not sure that Russia would not still consider this a win overall. Not all neighbors are equal if you take things like geography into account, so I would not rule out the possibility that Sweden and Finnland were factored in.
      - 4y ago
Proven 4y ago
[dead]
4gotunameagain 4y ago
- mongol 4y ago
  This is the same as saying fuck Russias neighbours for joining NATO. They appearently have no agency on their own?
- curious_cat_163 4y ago
  Russia, as a state, has legitimate concerns around the expansion of NATO. There are thousands of alternate universes where these concerns could have been addressed peacefully. Russia is a great state with a lot of history and heritage and its position in the global pecking order should be solidified. However, NATO expansion does not give Russia a right to attack a sovereign country and attack civilian population centers with no regard to human life. Russia has been an aggressor in this. No matter where our political sympathies lie, we have to call a spade a spade. Russia started this war.
  - mongol 4y ago
    Russia's war against Ukraine buries its reputation deep, deep into the ground. Putin completely destroys whatever reputation as a "great state" Russia may have had.
- Moldoteck 4y ago
  I think it's more about Ukraine having enough resources of gas and oil to replace russia for eu and oh surprise Russia now has control over exact those zones full of resources (south and east). Nato is not a concern(Finland proves this) because, check, Russia has enough nukes to kill all living beings on earth and still not use all of them
- mechanical_bear 4y ago
  NATO doesn’t expand on its own. Sovereign nations seek to join for their own reasons. As a sovereign nation, Ukraine had the ability to seek membership.
HorizonXP 4y ago
I agree with this wholeheartedly, but I also think some of the burden should be placed on Europe’s leaders for not preparing more thoroughly for this scenario. Trade is a great tool to mitigate and avoid conflicts like these, but the power balance was shifted too far into Russia’s favour here. Energy policy should have included means of establishing sovereignty over energy sources. Shutting down nuclear reactors was probably not the best move. Russian gas was cheaper, until it wasn’t. In hindsight, keeping domestic sources available would have been wise. Other policies to establish Russian economic dependence upon the West would have helped too. That said, only so much you can do with an autocrat.
- LatteLazy 4y ago
  You're not wrong but also no one can magic up energy out of nowhere...
  - acid__ 4y ago
    I’m glad to see a shift in sentiments from Germany about nuclear power [0]. There have been warnings about energy dependence on Russia for years [1], maybe not long enough to spin up more nuclear plants but certainly enough time to make good progress on them. [0] https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/05/world/europe/germany-extend-life-nuclear-reactors.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/05/world/europe/germany-exte... [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2018/09/25/trump-accused-germany-becoming-totally-dependent-russian-energy-un-germans-just-smirked/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2018/09/25/trump-accuse...
    - isbvhodnvemrwvn 4y ago
      Don't mistake this for shift in sentiments. They are not going to continue using nuclear energy in mid or long term, just postpone its shutdown.
  - michaelt 4y ago
    No, but Germany started a shutdown of nuclear power plants and the laying of the Nordstream gas pipeline as recently as 2011. I appreciate that major infrastructure projects take a long time to build - but a gas-heavy Russia-dependent energy mix was the deliberate choice very recently.
that_guy_iain 4y ago
I personally think NATO has some blame to take. Ukraine begged to join NATO for years. NATO said no and played a slow game. All NATO had to do was say yes. Russia would have never invaded a NATO country. But they did invade a country to make sure they didn't join NATO.
- danbruc 4y ago
  I also tend to put some blame on NATO, but I think they should not have offered a membership or only one with additional rules like in the case of Norway. The prospect of Ukraine joining NATO is what forced Russia to act to possibly prevent a NATO membership, as you said this would have become a lot more impossible to do once Ukraine had joined NATO.
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    > The prospect of Ukraine joining NATO is what forced Russia to act to possibly prevent a NATO membership It didn't force Russia to do anything.
    - danbruc 4y ago
      If you consider Ukraine becoming a NATO member a threat to Russian security that has to be prevented at all costs, then you are forced to act if your opposition is ignored. Besides this there are essentially only two options - Ukraine does not become a NATO member or you convince Russia that a Ukrainian NATO membership is not a threat to its security. EDIT: As a thought experiment entertain the idea of a partnership between Mexico and China where in exchange for economic support China gets a few military bases in northern Mexico, just a few thousand soldiers and tanks and maybe an airfield here or there. Take into account the recent US reaction in response to a partnership between the Solomon Islands and China [1]. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/23/us-warns-solomon-islands-against-china-military-base-as-australian-mps-trade-blame https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/23/us-warns-solom...
      - deleted 4y ago
lnsru 4y ago
It’s not the president putin. It’s corrupt Germans who took russian money and build insane dependency on cheap russian gas. Now the card house is falling apart and the general population must pay the price. My gas bill increased by ~2,8x. On the other hand russians have nothing left to blackmail Europe.
- ghostwriter 4y ago
  > On the other hand russians have nothing left to blackmail Europe. that's a very naive way of looking at economic interdependence, even more naive than the view of politicians half a year ago that led Europe to the current energy crisis. How about european aerospace industry's need for titanium and aluminium? [1] There are several important resource markets where Russia has a significant share of the supply pie [2]. Metals and fertilizers to name a few. Politicians know that but are acting as if they don't, and the public has better start asking them for more than just knee-jerk reactions with economic sanctions that mostly hurt key european industries and numerous households that depend on these industries. [1] > Airbus has said it relies on Russia for half its titanium needs, while a U.S. industry source said VSMPO-AVISMA provided a third of Boeing's requirements: https://www.reuters.com/business/importance-russian-titanium-global-industry-2022-03-01/ https://www.reuters.com/business/importance-russian-titanium... [2] https://www.oecd.org/ukraine-hub/policy-responses/the-supply-of-critical-raw-materials-endangered-by-russia-s-war-on-ukraine-e01ac7be/ https://www.oecd.org/ukraine-hub/policy-responses/the-supply...
  - lnsru 4y ago
    Aluminium and titanium can be sourced from other sources. And they don’t depend on complex pipelines for delivery. It will be more expensive for sure.
aydnina 4y ago
- mechanical_bear 4y ago
  Illegal? How so?
  - aydnina 4y ago
    - effie 4y ago
      Are you sure? What happened to sovereignity of countries in choosing who they do business with? Can you provide some legal rationale?
      - aydnina 4y ago
dang 4y ago
Please don't post offtopic flamewar comments (including war flamewar comments) to HN, even if you feel strongly and your feelings are justified. It's not what this site is for, and can only destroy what it is for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- throwaway5752 4y ago
  I just came back to this being quite a bit more controversial than I intended. I wrote it frustrated by the story and the commenters here who were ignoring the elephant in the room. Please detach it from the story, if it is possible, or otherwise make it so it doesn't cause further harm. Whatever you feel is appropriate. In my defense, though, while I can see it being inflammatory it is definitely not offtopic. This is directly why CERN is being idled, and the article states it plainly: "Europe's energy picture remains clouded by the war in Ukraine. Moscow's invasion of its neighbour have triggered sweeping sanctions from the West, led to a cut in energy supplies from Russia and stoked inflation. On September 2, Russia indefinitely suspended natural gas flows through the Nord Stream 1 pipeline, tightening the squeeze on Europe’s energy supplies. The ongoing economic battle between Moscow and Brussels has raised the prospects of recession and energy rationing in some of the continent’s wealthiest countries."

curious_cat_163 4y ago

This is what you get when you rely on fossil fuels as an energy source in 2022. The truth is, the geographical distribution of where the fossil fuels have been discovered is completely non-uniform. Such non-uniform distribution leads to conflict among humans, over and over again.

deburo 4y ago
>This is what you get when you rely on fossil fuels as an energy source in 2022. The root cause was to source your energy needs from an old enemy. And it seems that what made this happen was the green transition at home.
remify 4y ago
France does not rely on fossil fuel for electricity
- matbatt38 4y ago
  Lol that's not true Also LHC is not on France
- curious_cat_163 4y ago
  It does. At least, according to this source: https://ourworldindata.org/energy/country/france https://ourworldindata.org/energy/country/france Renewables and Nuclear make up about 50% of the total. It may very well grow, but there will be a time lag because French institutions are not known for their expedience.

classified 4y ago

I'd like to see cryptominers reduce their frivolous and wasteful activities.

kennend3 4y ago
If history has taught us anything it is this - As long as there is money to be made people will literally destroy anything to get it.

sschueller 4y ago

From what I recall the last time I was there is that they tune it down quite a bit in winter anyway because of electricity that is needed else where in France. Also from my understanding most of the electricity that is generated for CERN is by nuclear power plants and since so many of those are currently under maintenance they may need the power they do have to supply export agreements etc.

seren 4y ago
EDF was a net electricity exporter, until 2022, but this year France is already importing quite a lot of electricity currently, due to most nuclear reactors being still in maintenance. They are supposed to be restarted before winter but I would not bet on it https://www.rte-france.com/en/eco2mix/cross-border-electricity-trading https://www.rte-france.com/en/eco2mix/cross-border-electrici...
- shapefrog 4y ago
  - hef19898 4y ago
    As far as connected electricity grids go, you import from those memebers that have a surplus and export when you have one. The country of origin has nothing to do with any of it.
    - shapefrog 4y ago
      - hef19898 4y ago
        Nice analogy, unfortunately that is not how electricity generation, consumption and grid management works.
- stuaxo 4y ago

wcarss 4y ago

A little bit of a feeling of the lamps going out all over Europe in this one very big, very unusual lamp's dimming.

mschuster91 4y ago
Europe is under an absurd, unprecedented energy crunch at the moment: The worst problem is that the French nuclear reactors have massive issues - over half their capacity is currently offline because of massive defects or barely producing due to a lack of cooling water [1]. That same drought also impacted Swiss nuclear plants [2] and Italian hydro power [3]. On top of that, the German gas peaker plants that used to be relatively cheap are now, thanks to the Russian invasion, extremely expensive - but since the French don't have an alternative, they pay absurd amounts of essentially government-funded money [4] on the spot markets, enough to make even the expensive gas peakers worth it, which in turn drives up the price for anyone else on the shared European electricity grid. And to make the situation even worse than it already is, this is not just a spot market crisis. There is no indication at all that the situation in France will clear up any time soon - to the contrary, it will get exponentially worse in winter, as the majority of France uses electric heating - and the drought induced hydro crunch will need many months of constant rainfall to refill all the natural reservoirs before the plants can act at capacity again. This makes long-term electricity futures absurdly expensive as well, and the price hike of these futures hasn't even begun to reach electricity consumers yet. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32605337 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32605337 [2] https://www.swr.de/swraktuell/baden-wuerttemberg/suedbaden/akw-beznau-muss-wegen-hitze-produktion-drosseln-100.html https://www.swr.de/swraktuell/baden-wuerttemberg/suedbaden/a... [3] https://www.politico.eu/article/europe-scorching-summer-heatwave-hydropower-plant/ https://www.politico.eu/article/europe-scorching-summer-heat... [4] https://www.lemonde.fr/en/energies/article/2022/07/28/energy-price-caps-push-french-power-giant-edf-into-record-loss_5991713_98.html https://www.lemonde.fr/en/energies/article/2022/07/28/energy...
- giantg2 4y ago
  You would think the countries with nuclear carriers would park them at home and figure a way to hook them into the grid.

squarefoot 4y ago

I have plenty of karma to burn, so here is some information coming from reputable sources that also suggest where the problem really is. https://ccaf.io/cbeci/index/comparisons https://ccaf.io/cbeci/index/comparisons https://edition.cnn.com/videos/business/2022/04/25/watt-dnt-bitcoin-mining-electricity-washington-nr-vpx.cnn/video/playlists/project-planet/ https://edition.cnn.com/videos/business/2022/04/25/watt-dnt-...

GekkePrutser 4y ago
What does Bitcoin energy consumption have to do with CERN? Don't forget most mining is done in China, not Europe. And your first link mainly tries to show that Bitcoin consumption isn't a lot compared to other uses. So I don't really see the point.
- squarefoot 4y ago
  > What does Bitcoin energy consumption have to do with CERN? Priorities. Bitcoin (as other POW based cryptocurrencies) waste a huge load of energy, with a single Bitcoin transaction that cost over US$100 of energy (old estimation when energy costs were a lot lower) and mining farms sprouting everywhere hosting thousands of nodes of which each one draws 2000-5000 Watts, just like one or two heaters, but kept on 24/7 with their fans pumping heat into the atmosphere. My point is that before looking at CERN, maybe, just maybe, they should look at other places where energy is wasted by turning it directly into money (and heat), also without creating businesses and jobs.
  - GekkePrutser 4y ago
    Aha I see. I don't think that's very doable though. Bitcoin ASICs only stay relevant for a short time, when they're surpassed by more efficient models, and no longer economically viable. I doubt the owners of these are willing to turn them off and let their investment expire without using them. Also, the increasing cost of electricity dramatically reduces that write-off period. Besides that, CERN is mostly publicly funded and one huge consumer so the government has lots of control over them which they don't have over miners, which are also more fragmented between many different operators. And the research CERN do is not time critical. So I still think it makes sense. CERN is one thing they can actually do without too much trouble and has a relatively large effect.