5 ms·

Saturated fat: villain and bogeyman of cardiovascular disease?

32 points by jbotz 4y ago

dimensionc132 4y ago
Collectively, neither observational studies, prospective epidemiologic cohort studies, RCTs, systematic reviews and meta analyses have conclusively established a significant association between SFA in the diet and subsequent cardiovascular risk and CAD, MI or mortality nor a benefit of reducing dietary SFAs on CVD rick, events and mortality. Beneficial effects of replacement of SFA by polyunsaturated or monounsaturated fat or carbohydrates remain elusive. Normie speak; they don't know. Next....
- marcosdumay 4y ago
  > they don't know Like in what looks like every other case of diet science. People are finally questioning and replicating that kind of research. The mainstream culture of the field seems to have been bad at that on the past, but it changed. Maybe soon we will actually know something.
  - FollowingTheDao 4y ago
    Diet science is flawed because it does not take personal genetics into account. You can take two different sample sizes, say one from a largely Inuit population and another from a Caucasian farmer population and get two different results when changing their diet.
    - marcosdumay 4y ago
      Yep, it is very hard for a lot of reasons. The correct way to deal with this is to acknowledge the problem and your research's limitations. The wrong way to deal with this is to pretend the problem doesn't exist. A lot of the latter seem to have happened on the past; not always by the original authors, but by the community as a whole.
hirundo 4y ago
Bogeyman: "Based on the scientific evidence, there is no scientific ground to demonize SFA as a cause of CVD. SFA naturally occurring in nutrient-dense foods can be safely included in the diet." After we vanquish the bogeyman, SFA can be revealed as a health food. https://med.umn.edu/news-events/new-research-finds-saturated-fats-can-lower-change-cognitive-function-over-time https://med.umn.edu/news-events/new-research-finds-saturated...
- feet 4y ago
  In my opinion, calling a food or nutrient "healthy" hides the nuance. Nothing is inherently healthy. The levels and forms that we consume the nutrients in could be considered healthy
version_five 4y ago
I know that the Heart and Stroke Foundation (which I assume has good intentions) has long been telling people to avoid saturated fat and sodium, when it's not completely clear these are bad for all people (some can be sensitive to sodium for example). At some level it's probably not bad advice to limit intake of these things, but what ends up happening is that recommendations are for absurdly low levels (2400mg sodium/day eg) that make many people not bother even trying. It's like telling people they need to get 150 minutes of exercise a week. How about starting by taking the stairs. Anyway, I think it makes it even less credible when you see things like this that say it may not even be a problem. I believe focusing on things that are unambiguously good, and positive trumps trying to prohibit or restrict things that are cornerstones of many diets.
- agumonkey 4y ago
  There's also a shallow aspect in quantitative only messages. Your body is complex and soft, move more but move smart, move soft, breath deep, pay attention. Move in groups, focus on energy efficiency. Your cardio vascular system is a bit of a plumbing.. so lay flat at times to move the blood more easily. Yoga people also aim at matching breathing oxygen intake, lung sucking blood to improve the overall blood flow efficiency. This kind of approaches should be more efficient than just zumba hard at the gym club.
- feet 4y ago
  2.4g sodium is only "low" if you're eating a lot of processed foods It really isn't that low
  - hilbert42 4y ago
    Right. I don't put NaCl on anything I eat except perhaps fries which I'd only have a few times a year yet I reckon I consume considerably more than 2.4g a day. It's put in every conceivable thing we eat that we don't cook ourselves. Either we become obsessive home cooking fanatic or we exceed that limit.
    - feet 4y ago
JoeyJoJoJr 4y ago
Just from my own anecdotal evidence, going clean vegan dropped my cholesterol levels from 6.1 to 5.1 in ~3 months. I’m pretty convinced there is a lot of truth to high saturated fat/animal products negatively impacting cholesterol levels. But that is my own personal experience. I’d encourage anyone seeking insights to just try a vegan diet for a while and compare their bloodwork, and how they feel. Seems like little point looking for answers in the science because of the amount of noise.
- RappingBoomer 4y ago
  but that vegan diet will likely raise triglycerides...
- FollowingTheDao 4y ago
  As I said before I’ll keep repeating, it’s all about genetics. When I was vegan my VLDL was very high and my HDL was consistently below 35. When I went to a pescatarian diet with no plant oils is the only time my HDL is consistently above 50 and my VLDL dropped. I also have a history of early heart disease in my family. I would not suggesting a diet to anyone if they do not know their genetics.
- careless_lisper 4y ago
  Did you try going clean non-vegan before that?
nikolay 4y ago
That crook Ancel Keys - he's behind so much chronic diseases and obesity - all to please political agendas - he himself didn't stop eating beef after his "research" or better yet - deliberate scientific fraud! I can't believe people still buy nonfat and low-fat milk!
3452356346 4y ago
There's a podcast interview you should listen to where Peter Attia interviews Gerald Shulman (MD, PhD) about the mechanisms underlying diabetes. Shulman clearly implicates excessive intramyocellular lipids (which diets high in saturated fat increase) as the culprit, and Attia, former keto zealot, does basically nothing to dispute this, presumably because he can't. It's pretty damning for the low-carb dogma, which I confess to having been at least somewhat taken in by: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5291812/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5291812/ (I never did keto or paleo, but I did harbor an irrational fear of carbs years. Today I still eat animal products in moderation, but I absolutely try to keep it as low in SFA as I can.)

32 points by jbotz 4y ago

Collectively, neither observational studies, prospective epidemiologic cohort studies, RCTs, systematic reviews and meta analyses have conclusively established a significant association between SFA in the diet and subsequent cardiovascular risk and CAD, MI or mortality nor a benefit of reducing dietary SFAs on CVD rick, events and mortality. Beneficial effects of replacement of SFA by polyunsaturated or monounsaturated fat or carbohydrates remain elusive. Normie speak; they don't know. Next....

marcosdumay 4y ago
> they don't know Like in what looks like every other case of diet science. People are finally questioning and replicating that kind of research. The mainstream culture of the field seems to have been bad at that on the past, but it changed. Maybe soon we will actually know something.
- FollowingTheDao 4y ago
  Diet science is flawed because it does not take personal genetics into account. You can take two different sample sizes, say one from a largely Inuit population and another from a Caucasian farmer population and get two different results when changing their diet.
  - marcosdumay 4y ago
    Yep, it is very hard for a lot of reasons. The correct way to deal with this is to acknowledge the problem and your research's limitations. The wrong way to deal with this is to pretend the problem doesn't exist. A lot of the latter seem to have happened on the past; not always by the original authors, but by the community as a whole.

hirundo 4y ago

Bogeyman: "Based on the scientific evidence, there is no scientific ground to demonize SFA as a cause of CVD. SFA naturally occurring in nutrient-dense foods can be safely included in the diet." After we vanquish the bogeyman, SFA can be revealed as a health food. https://med.umn.edu/news-events/new-research-finds-saturated-fats-can-lower-change-cognitive-function-over-time https://med.umn.edu/news-events/new-research-finds-saturated...

feet 4y ago
In my opinion, calling a food or nutrient "healthy" hides the nuance. Nothing is inherently healthy. The levels and forms that we consume the nutrients in could be considered healthy

version_five 4y ago

I know that the Heart and Stroke Foundation (which I assume has good intentions) has long been telling people to avoid saturated fat and sodium, when it's not completely clear these are bad for all people (some can be sensitive to sodium for example). At some level it's probably not bad advice to limit intake of these things, but what ends up happening is that recommendations are for absurdly low levels (2400mg sodium/day eg) that make many people not bother even trying. It's like telling people they need to get 150 minutes of exercise a week. How about starting by taking the stairs. Anyway, I think it makes it even less credible when you see things like this that say it may not even be a problem. I believe focusing on things that are unambiguously good, and positive trumps trying to prohibit or restrict things that are cornerstones of many diets.

agumonkey 4y ago
There's also a shallow aspect in quantitative only messages. Your body is complex and soft, move more but move smart, move soft, breath deep, pay attention. Move in groups, focus on energy efficiency. Your cardio vascular system is a bit of a plumbing.. so lay flat at times to move the blood more easily. Yoga people also aim at matching breathing oxygen intake, lung sucking blood to improve the overall blood flow efficiency. This kind of approaches should be more efficient than just zumba hard at the gym club.
feet 4y ago
2.4g sodium is only "low" if you're eating a lot of processed foods It really isn't that low
- hilbert42 4y ago
  Right. I don't put NaCl on anything I eat except perhaps fries which I'd only have a few times a year yet I reckon I consume considerably more than 2.4g a day. It's put in every conceivable thing we eat that we don't cook ourselves. Either we become obsessive home cooking fanatic or we exceed that limit.
  - feet 4y ago

JoeyJoJoJr 4y ago

Just from my own anecdotal evidence, going clean vegan dropped my cholesterol levels from 6.1 to 5.1 in ~3 months. I’m pretty convinced there is a lot of truth to high saturated fat/animal products negatively impacting cholesterol levels. But that is my own personal experience. I’d encourage anyone seeking insights to just try a vegan diet for a while and compare their bloodwork, and how they feel. Seems like little point looking for answers in the science because of the amount of noise.

RappingBoomer 4y ago
but that vegan diet will likely raise triglycerides...
FollowingTheDao 4y ago
As I said before I’ll keep repeating, it’s all about genetics. When I was vegan my VLDL was very high and my HDL was consistently below 35. When I went to a pescatarian diet with no plant oils is the only time my HDL is consistently above 50 and my VLDL dropped. I also have a history of early heart disease in my family. I would not suggesting a diet to anyone if they do not know their genetics.
careless_lisper 4y ago
Did you try going clean non-vegan before that?

nikolay 4y ago

That crook Ancel Keys - he's behind so much chronic diseases and obesity - all to please political agendas - he himself didn't stop eating beef after his "research" or better yet - deliberate scientific fraud! I can't believe people still buy nonfat and low-fat milk!

3452356346 4y ago

There's a podcast interview you should listen to where Peter Attia interviews Gerald Shulman (MD, PhD) about the mechanisms underlying diabetes. Shulman clearly implicates excessive intramyocellular lipids (which diets high in saturated fat increase) as the culprit, and Attia, former keto zealot, does basically nothing to dispute this, presumably because he can't. It's pretty damning for the low-carb dogma, which I confess to having been at least somewhat taken in by: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5291812/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5291812/ (I never did keto or paleo, but I did harbor an irrational fear of carbs years. Today I still eat animal products in moderation, but I absolutely try to keep it as low in SFA as I can.)