4 ms·

A better alternative would be to have localised production and localised consumption of food and most basic goods. Stuff like not having foreign-cuisine restaur

A better alternative would be to have localised production and localised consumption of food and most basic goods. Stuff like not having foreign-cuisine restaurants and not buying salmon from thousands of kilometers away. Cloth production should follow the same idea. People should feel more attached to their birthplace and the goal should be to develop their skills locally with one company preferably. Strong bonds with the local extended family which provides an additional safety net. If your region produces cars, you should be more likely (through education and culture) to become an automotive engineer and live there for your life. Trade for more advanced goods should still be there, but it would be more inter-region and less inter-global.

nickpp 4y ago
You are describing a world of slaves. How many people are you willing to sacrifice to achieve you vision?
- rglullis 4y ago
  Is participating jn an Amish village "slavery"? An Israeli Kibutz?
  - michaelmrose 4y ago
    An amish village is a laughable anachronism that only exist in the context of a much larger whole that is antithetical to the very values and way of life it practices because no larger scale society so constructed could exist or compete with other societies practicing opposing values. It's not a healthier better way to build a city its a tiny park on a corner lot surrounded by pollution and traffic.
    - rglullis 4y ago
      First: yes, it is healthier for those living inside the park, compared to the alternative. Second: the point is not to build "a larger scale" version of those societies, but actually to replicate the idea of localism in many different places. Less EU and one-world government and more independent nation-states, if you will. Third: you can oppose the lifestyle and philosophy all you want, but it still is not slavery.
      - ericd 4y ago
        Can it survive against a larger-scale opponent that wants to take its resources, though? Without a friendly superpower enforcing peace with an extraordinarily powerful military, that is.
        rglullis 4y ago
        Switzerland managed to do it for centuries already.
        michaelmrose 4y ago
        Switzerland isn't by the prior analogy a park its a normal modern nation. It's a complete non sequitur
        rglullis 4y ago
        It's a modern nation that had very mighty expansionist empires on their borders. It's also the only country in Western Europe that never intended or desired to join the EU.
        michaelmrose 4y ago
        Yes but lest we entirely lose track of the thread its not an isolationist nation that foregoes the fruits of globalism or corporatism its merely been willing to do business with everyone including letting nazis bank the gold literally yanked from the mouths of murdered jews. It's neutrality even in the face of abject evil has nothing whatsoever to do with any topic being discussed.
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
        nradov 4y ago
        Switzerland's wealth is built on plunder and money laundering. That's not a model we should want to replicate anywhere else. https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/nazis/readings/sinister.html https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/nazis/reading...
  - nickpp 4y ago
    If you're not allowed to leave, YES.
    - rglullis 4y ago
      They are allowed to leave, dude...
JumpCrisscross 4y ago
> not having foreign-cuisine restaurants and not buying salmon from thousands of kilometers away. Cloth production should follow the same idea These isolated communities exist. Their quality of life is lower. But anyone can join them. From hippie communes to Amish communities, Luddism has a long tradition in modern society. (I’m ignoring the ethno-racial undertone in implying there can be an objective arbiter of what counts as true local cuisine and culture.)
- rglullis 4y ago
  The point is not in absolute isolation, but trading away some optimization in global economic output for increased self-resiliency. Yes, overall we would be poorer on average, but we would a lot less likely to see catastrophic events and a bit more equity among members of the same community.
  - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
    > point is not in absolute isolation, but trading away some optimization in global economic output for increased self-resiliency You’re arguing for something reasonable. The commenter I’m replying to quotes Dugin and alludes to something resembling a hermit kingdom. (Attachment to birthplace. Going into the local industry, skills be damned. Blood thicker than water and no “foreign” food.) This is a recipe for nationalistic poverty. North Korea and Russia are going down this path. They’ll be poor and uninfluential. But if makes them happy, as long as they keep it within their borders, it is difficult to advocate for a shift from outside.
    - sahila 4y ago
      > North Korea and Russia are going down this path. While I'm not sure which side of the argument I stand on, I do think it's pointing out that even if certain societies / countries do do the things, they unfortunately bare of the costs of others' decisions. A third of Pakistan being flooded is more likely a consequence of the West's energy usage and not due to their own doing. So it's a global effort to make these changes or limited benefits are seen.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
ericd 4y ago
God, I’m glad I wasn’t born in the designated car production region, what a horrible thing to be forced to devote my life to.
nradov 4y ago
You appear to be ignorant of basic economics such as Ricardo's law of comparative advantage. https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/comparativeadvantage.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/comparativeadvantage.as... What you have proposed is worse than what we have in every way. Transporting food and basic foods over long distances is cheap and very energy efficient. In fact it's more efficient than having a bunch of tiny factories in every city. People shouldn't be stuck living their whole lives in one place working for one company making shitty cloth or whatever.
- rglullis 4y ago
  It is cheaper, but less robust. One ship blocking the Suez Canal means that billions of people are not able to get their food and medicine on time, because everyone is too specialized to do anything that is not a desk job.
- dang 4y ago
  Please edit swipes like "you appear to be ignorant [etc.]" out of your posts to HN. They break the site guidelines, and you can make your substantive points without them. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Edit: we've had to ask you about this many times: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30120252 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30120252 (Jan 2022) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29598017 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29598017 (Dec 2021) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25935223 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25935223 (Jan 2021) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18774141 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18774141 (Dec 2018) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16175756 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16175756 (Jan 2018) Could you please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and use HN in the intended spirit? We ban accounts that keep breaking them. I don't want to ban you, but we need you to fix this.

nickpp 4y ago

You are describing a world of slaves. How many people are you willing to sacrifice to achieve you vision?

rglullis 4y ago
Is participating jn an Amish village "slavery"? An Israeli Kibutz?
- michaelmrose 4y ago
  An amish village is a laughable anachronism that only exist in the context of a much larger whole that is antithetical to the very values and way of life it practices because no larger scale society so constructed could exist or compete with other societies practicing opposing values. It's not a healthier better way to build a city its a tiny park on a corner lot surrounded by pollution and traffic.
  - rglullis 4y ago
    First: yes, it is healthier for those living inside the park, compared to the alternative. Second: the point is not to build "a larger scale" version of those societies, but actually to replicate the idea of localism in many different places. Less EU and one-world government and more independent nation-states, if you will. Third: you can oppose the lifestyle and philosophy all you want, but it still is not slavery.
    - ericd 4y ago
      Can it survive against a larger-scale opponent that wants to take its resources, though? Without a friendly superpower enforcing peace with an extraordinarily powerful military, that is.
      - rglullis 4y ago
        Switzerland managed to do it for centuries already.
        michaelmrose 4y ago
        Switzerland isn't by the prior analogy a park its a normal modern nation. It's a complete non sequitur
        rglullis 4y ago
        It's a modern nation that had very mighty expansionist empires on their borders. It's also the only country in Western Europe that never intended or desired to join the EU.
        michaelmrose 4y ago
        Yes but lest we entirely lose track of the thread its not an isolationist nation that foregoes the fruits of globalism or corporatism its merely been willing to do business with everyone including letting nazis bank the gold literally yanked from the mouths of murdered jews. It's neutrality even in the face of abject evil has nothing whatsoever to do with any topic being discussed.
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
        nradov 4y ago
        Switzerland's wealth is built on plunder and money laundering. That's not a model we should want to replicate anywhere else. https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/nazis/readings/sinister.html https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/nazis/reading...
- nickpp 4y ago
  If you're not allowed to leave, YES.
  - rglullis 4y ago
    They are allowed to leave, dude...

JumpCrisscross 4y ago

> not having foreign-cuisine restaurants and not buying salmon from thousands of kilometers away. Cloth production should follow the same idea These isolated communities exist. Their quality of life is lower. But anyone can join them. From hippie communes to Amish communities, Luddism has a long tradition in modern society. (I’m ignoring the ethno-racial undertone in implying there can be an objective arbiter of what counts as true local cuisine and culture.)

rglullis 4y ago
The point is not in absolute isolation, but trading away some optimization in global economic output for increased self-resiliency. Yes, overall we would be poorer on average, but we would a lot less likely to see catastrophic events and a bit more equity among members of the same community.
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  > point is not in absolute isolation, but trading away some optimization in global economic output for increased self-resiliency You’re arguing for something reasonable. The commenter I’m replying to quotes Dugin and alludes to something resembling a hermit kingdom. (Attachment to birthplace. Going into the local industry, skills be damned. Blood thicker than water and no “foreign” food.) This is a recipe for nationalistic poverty. North Korea and Russia are going down this path. They’ll be poor and uninfluential. But if makes them happy, as long as they keep it within their borders, it is difficult to advocate for a shift from outside.
  - sahila 4y ago
    > North Korea and Russia are going down this path. While I'm not sure which side of the argument I stand on, I do think it's pointing out that even if certain societies / countries do do the things, they unfortunately bare of the costs of others' decisions. A third of Pakistan being flooded is more likely a consequence of the West's energy usage and not due to their own doing. So it's a global effort to make these changes or limited benefits are seen.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

ericd 4y ago

God, I’m glad I wasn’t born in the designated car production region, what a horrible thing to be forced to devote my life to.

nradov 4y ago

You appear to be ignorant of basic economics such as Ricardo's law of comparative advantage. https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/comparativeadvantage.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/comparativeadvantage.as... What you have proposed is worse than what we have in every way. Transporting food and basic foods over long distances is cheap and very energy efficient. In fact it's more efficient than having a bunch of tiny factories in every city. People shouldn't be stuck living their whole lives in one place working for one company making shitty cloth or whatever.

rglullis 4y ago
It is cheaper, but less robust. One ship blocking the Suez Canal means that billions of people are not able to get their food and medicine on time, because everyone is too specialized to do anything that is not a desk job.
dang 4y ago
Please edit swipes like "you appear to be ignorant [etc.]" out of your posts to HN. They break the site guidelines, and you can make your substantive points without them. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Edit: we've had to ask you about this many times: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30120252 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30120252 (Jan 2022) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29598017 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29598017 (Dec 2021) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25935223 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25935223 (Jan 2021) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18774141 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18774141 (Dec 2018) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16175756 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16175756 (Jan 2018) Could you please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and use HN in the intended spirit? We ban accounts that keep breaking them. I don't want to ban you, but we need you to fix this.