5 ms·

I love driving manual transmission cars but I really don't like this. It's like cosplay for cars. The simulated experience makes it very uncool. I'd rather just

by zcw100 4y ago

I love driving manual transmission cars but I really don't like this. It's like cosplay for cars. The simulated experience makes it very uncool. I'd rather just let the manual transmission have one last dignified drive into the sunset.

itronitron 4y ago
why should manual transmissions be limited to only petroleum powered engine? Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
- Analemma_ 4y ago
  Electric motors don’t need manual (or indeed, any) transmissions because they have a basically-flat torque curve across their entire RPM range. The only options for an electric motor are fake transmission or no transmission, and the parent is arguing for the latter and against “transmission cosplay”. A real manual transmission on an electric car would have no point.
  - SoftTalker 4y ago
    Electric motors draw more current when starting up and when delivering high torque. It's conceivable that with a transmission, maximum current draw could be lowered, perhaps leading to longer-lived batteries or lower demand for battery cooling, smaller gauge wiring, smaller motors, or other cost savings. Don't know for sure on any of this, but it seems plausible. On the other hand, if it really made a difference, why aren't the EV makers already doing it?
    - dangrossman 4y ago
      A more complicated gearbox means more friction which lowers the fuel efficiency of the vehicle. Since the battery is the most expensive part of a BEV, maximizing fuel efficiency is always a priority. It determines the cost and the range for the car. EVs with multiple gear ratios do exist though, the first of which was the 2020 Porsche Taycan. The first gear lets it maximize torque at low speeds (up to 62 MPH) so it can set 0-60 records, then the second gear lets it maintain a more economical motor speed for highway driving.
    - xanathar 4y ago
      I remember reading somewhere that the estimated efficiency gain of having 2 gears on the Taycan is 5%. On a typical 60kWh battery car, that's 3kWh... hardly worth the effort nor the cost. On the Taycan it makes sense because top speed. For any "normal" EV where top speed is not a concern, it's probably not a choice that makes sense.
      - davewritescode 4y ago
        I suspect it makes a big difference in range at higher speeds that Germans and Americans drive at on the highway. One of the most disappointing things about the Model3 is how quickly the range starts to dip at left lane traffic speeds here in the Northeast. There’s large stretches of the drive between NYC and Boston that have middle and left lane traffic moving at 80 MPH and what’s an easy task for a gas car means adding a recharge stop for anything except the Model3 Long Range.
        kcexn 4y ago
        Constant speeds on the highway should be the most efficient forms of driving. The only force the motors need to generate is the force required to overcome air resistance, this is going to be true of both ICE and electric. The range dip may instead be because of lower battery temperatures (from all of the wind). Better battery thermal management at high speeds might help. Higher energy density batteries will also comfortably overcome this problem. In the future I can see EV's that advertise fixed ranges, so that you don't get arbitrary range dips. They'll do this by over dimensioning the batteries and using better battery management software to make sure that more than 95-99% of your drives will be able to go at least the advertised range
        quintushoratius 4y ago
        To the contrary, the dip in range highlights that, as you increase speed, air resistance rises as a square. Our Leaf could probably go almost 50% farther on a charge if we never exceeded 30 mph. 30-40 mph has a small penalty; freeway speeds exact a much larger penalty.
  - dkjaudyeqooe 4y ago
    Torque isn't the only consideration, there's also efficiency and acceleration. Transmission aren't a necessity like they are in ICE cars, but they can improve the experience. For instance the Porsche Taycan: "Having a multispeed transmission in an EV provides the same benefits that it does in a gasoline-powered car: improved low-speed acceleration and increased efficiency at high velocity by lowering the rotating speed of the power source." https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a28903274/porsche-taycan-transmission/ https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a28903274/porsche-taycan-t...
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - BuckRogers 4y ago
      That's also the point to the transmission. A transmission (on the low end) is to enhance acceleration and efficiency (keeping you at an ideal ratio to maintain the speed you're going). Neither of these are issues when you have a flatter torque curve. Another comment said the efficiency gain on the Taycan is 5% over not having it. Which is about what I would've expected to see, not much for all the added complexity and reliability issues it introduces.
  - kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
    Three cylinder engines have a flat torque curve. They still benefit from a transmission.
    - hprotagonist 4y ago
      (street triple checking in) mostly flat.
    - winrid 4y ago
      You're just thinking of small turbocharged engines, which always had a flattish torque curve if the turbo was tiny.
  - terrio 4y ago
    They do have transmission. I checked it a year ago because I thought they don't. But it's fixed.
  - winrid 4y ago
    Teslas actually do have different gearing ratios, in that for the dual motor cars the motors in the front and rear are geared differently. This is a cheap, effective way to get a good combination of acceleration and efficiency.
  - Sohcahtoa82 4y ago
    > Electric motors don’t need manual (or indeed, any) transmissions because they have a basically-flat torque curve across their entire RPM range. I would argue that for an EV that is not designed to be a sports car (ie, a Model 3), you are correct. But one that is being designed to not just have power off the line, but also at the top end, will probably need a transmission. I do wonder if the top speed of my Model 3 Performance is due to simply not having enough power to overcome drag, or if the motors are reaching the end of their RPM range.
csw-001 4y ago
If the artificial version is so life like you can’t tell it’s not a “real” transmission does it pass the “touring test”?
- hello639 4y ago
  Damn you. Here, take my upvote.
salmo 4y ago
It all depends on the clutch to me. My ADHD is so satisfied by a manual. I’m engaged in the machine. It’s fun and you don’t need a real sports car. But paddle shifters do nothing for me. There’s no feel to it. It’s more like 3 on the tree. If the clutch gives it feel and control, I’m in. Sadly, finding a real manual is hard these days. Most cars don’t offer them. My Honda is stuck in 1 package with a mid-2000s style dash. Still fun to drive. I should look and see if I could retrofit an Apple Car Play/ Android Auto system in it…
- thatfrenchguy 4y ago
  As a ADHD person, driving an EV is even more engaging, as you can precisely get the speed you want with your right foot. It’s amazing.
  - sangnoir 4y ago
    You precisely set speed using your right foot with a regular manual too! I don't have an ADHD diagnosis, but coordinating 3 pedals, the steering wheel and the gear shift with both hands and both feet is unbeatable, sublime even, when you hit the power curves you were going for.
- raxxorraxor 4y ago
  A few years ago a manual could really help to fine tune car performance, but a modern automatic transmission is just superior to anyone switching gears. Especially if you have a strong motor with a high torque that can polish any slip clutch in a second. I would really like a modern car without shitty media systems. A desktop PC with mouse and keyboard would be awesome, directly attached to any sensor periphery and the coffee machine of course.
  - salmo 4y ago
    Oh, totally agree. It’s not a performance thing for me. I don’t have a fancy car, just enjoy the activity. I mostly envy the nav on my wife’s Apple Car Play. Otherwise it’s just a running map and an album art display. We use Waze for interstate travel and Google Maps for local. It’s nicer than a “nav package” or my phone holder. Otherwise, I’m happy with whatever let’s me listen to my tunes and podcasts. But I don’t need it that much. My little car is mostly for in town. We always use the van for trips. I do love a good minivan. I’m not ashamed :)
sangnoir 4y ago
> It's like cosplay for cars Exactly: a fun activity that's enjoyable to practitioners, and doesn't hurt those who do not partake of it. You wouldn't ban cosplaying if you had the power, would you?

by zcw100 4y ago

itronitron 4y ago

why should manual transmissions be limited to only petroleum powered engine? Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Analemma_ 4y ago
Electric motors don’t need manual (or indeed, any) transmissions because they have a basically-flat torque curve across their entire RPM range. The only options for an electric motor are fake transmission or no transmission, and the parent is arguing for the latter and against “transmission cosplay”. A real manual transmission on an electric car would have no point.
- SoftTalker 4y ago
  Electric motors draw more current when starting up and when delivering high torque. It's conceivable that with a transmission, maximum current draw could be lowered, perhaps leading to longer-lived batteries or lower demand for battery cooling, smaller gauge wiring, smaller motors, or other cost savings. Don't know for sure on any of this, but it seems plausible. On the other hand, if it really made a difference, why aren't the EV makers already doing it?
  - dangrossman 4y ago
    A more complicated gearbox means more friction which lowers the fuel efficiency of the vehicle. Since the battery is the most expensive part of a BEV, maximizing fuel efficiency is always a priority. It determines the cost and the range for the car. EVs with multiple gear ratios do exist though, the first of which was the 2020 Porsche Taycan. The first gear lets it maximize torque at low speeds (up to 62 MPH) so it can set 0-60 records, then the second gear lets it maintain a more economical motor speed for highway driving.
  - xanathar 4y ago
    I remember reading somewhere that the estimated efficiency gain of having 2 gears on the Taycan is 5%. On a typical 60kWh battery car, that's 3kWh... hardly worth the effort nor the cost. On the Taycan it makes sense because top speed. For any "normal" EV where top speed is not a concern, it's probably not a choice that makes sense.
    - davewritescode 4y ago
      I suspect it makes a big difference in range at higher speeds that Germans and Americans drive at on the highway. One of the most disappointing things about the Model3 is how quickly the range starts to dip at left lane traffic speeds here in the Northeast. There’s large stretches of the drive between NYC and Boston that have middle and left lane traffic moving at 80 MPH and what’s an easy task for a gas car means adding a recharge stop for anything except the Model3 Long Range.
      - kcexn 4y ago
        Constant speeds on the highway should be the most efficient forms of driving. The only force the motors need to generate is the force required to overcome air resistance, this is going to be true of both ICE and electric. The range dip may instead be because of lower battery temperatures (from all of the wind). Better battery thermal management at high speeds might help. Higher energy density batteries will also comfortably overcome this problem. In the future I can see EV's that advertise fixed ranges, so that you don't get arbitrary range dips. They'll do this by over dimensioning the batteries and using better battery management software to make sure that more than 95-99% of your drives will be able to go at least the advertised range
        quintushoratius 4y ago
        To the contrary, the dip in range highlights that, as you increase speed, air resistance rises as a square. Our Leaf could probably go almost 50% farther on a charge if we never exceeded 30 mph. 30-40 mph has a small penalty; freeway speeds exact a much larger penalty.
- dkjaudyeqooe 4y ago
  Torque isn't the only consideration, there's also efficiency and acceleration. Transmission aren't a necessity like they are in ICE cars, but they can improve the experience. For instance the Porsche Taycan: "Having a multispeed transmission in an EV provides the same benefits that it does in a gasoline-powered car: improved low-speed acceleration and increased efficiency at high velocity by lowering the rotating speed of the power source." https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a28903274/porsche-taycan-transmission/ https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a28903274/porsche-taycan-t...
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - BuckRogers 4y ago
    That's also the point to the transmission. A transmission (on the low end) is to enhance acceleration and efficiency (keeping you at an ideal ratio to maintain the speed you're going). Neither of these are issues when you have a flatter torque curve. Another comment said the efficiency gain on the Taycan is 5% over not having it. Which is about what I would've expected to see, not much for all the added complexity and reliability issues it introduces.
- kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
  Three cylinder engines have a flat torque curve. They still benefit from a transmission.
  - hprotagonist 4y ago
    (street triple checking in) mostly flat.
  - winrid 4y ago
    You're just thinking of small turbocharged engines, which always had a flattish torque curve if the turbo was tiny.
- terrio 4y ago
  They do have transmission. I checked it a year ago because I thought they don't. But it's fixed.
- winrid 4y ago
  Teslas actually do have different gearing ratios, in that for the dual motor cars the motors in the front and rear are geared differently. This is a cheap, effective way to get a good combination of acceleration and efficiency.
- Sohcahtoa82 4y ago
  > Electric motors don’t need manual (or indeed, any) transmissions because they have a basically-flat torque curve across their entire RPM range. I would argue that for an EV that is not designed to be a sports car (ie, a Model 3), you are correct. But one that is being designed to not just have power off the line, but also at the top end, will probably need a transmission. I do wonder if the top speed of my Model 3 Performance is due to simply not having enough power to overcome drag, or if the motors are reaching the end of their RPM range.

csw-001 4y ago

If the artificial version is so life like you can’t tell it’s not a “real” transmission does it pass the “touring test”?

hello639 4y ago
Damn you. Here, take my upvote.

salmo 4y ago

It all depends on the clutch to me. My ADHD is so satisfied by a manual. I’m engaged in the machine. It’s fun and you don’t need a real sports car. But paddle shifters do nothing for me. There’s no feel to it. It’s more like 3 on the tree. If the clutch gives it feel and control, I’m in. Sadly, finding a real manual is hard these days. Most cars don’t offer them. My Honda is stuck in 1 package with a mid-2000s style dash. Still fun to drive. I should look and see if I could retrofit an Apple Car Play/ Android Auto system in it…

thatfrenchguy 4y ago
As a ADHD person, driving an EV is even more engaging, as you can precisely get the speed you want with your right foot. It’s amazing.
- sangnoir 4y ago
  You precisely set speed using your right foot with a regular manual too! I don't have an ADHD diagnosis, but coordinating 3 pedals, the steering wheel and the gear shift with both hands and both feet is unbeatable, sublime even, when you hit the power curves you were going for.
raxxorraxor 4y ago
A few years ago a manual could really help to fine tune car performance, but a modern automatic transmission is just superior to anyone switching gears. Especially if you have a strong motor with a high torque that can polish any slip clutch in a second. I would really like a modern car without shitty media systems. A desktop PC with mouse and keyboard would be awesome, directly attached to any sensor periphery and the coffee machine of course.
- salmo 4y ago
  Oh, totally agree. It’s not a performance thing for me. I don’t have a fancy car, just enjoy the activity. I mostly envy the nav on my wife’s Apple Car Play. Otherwise it’s just a running map and an album art display. We use Waze for interstate travel and Google Maps for local. It’s nicer than a “nav package” or my phone holder. Otherwise, I’m happy with whatever let’s me listen to my tunes and podcasts. But I don’t need it that much. My little car is mostly for in town. We always use the van for trips. I do love a good minivan. I’m not ashamed :)

sangnoir 4y ago

> It's like cosplay for cars Exactly: a fun activity that's enjoyable to practitioners, and doesn't hurt those who do not partake of it. You wouldn't ban cosplaying if you had the power, would you?