21 ms·

Don't ignore the janitor

• tartoran 4y ago
  I talk to the janitor daily. He used to be a schoolteacher and mainly took the job for health insurance benefits. Folks often look down on this type of workers. I quite often find genuine human beings in them, they don’t have to pretend at all…
• w10-1 4y ago
  This isn't about janitors or even service workers. It's about ignoring the humanity around us. Yes, we're all tasked at work, and have limited bandwidth and interest. But still: prioritizing kindness make the world a better place for everyone, because it's a way of shouting quietly: I am not a tool, and neither are you. This applies to how developers treat QA, or marketers treat developers, leads and newbies, etc. Because that's where it seems my task involves getting you to deliver. Instead, help others feel respected, and want to do their job, instead of having to do their job. Don't be surprised if they don't: it's their choice.
• boh 4y ago
  These type of articles are always cringy. Essentially: "low social IQ tech type discovers other people, suggests we talk to humans since they seem to like it".
• JoeAltmaier 4y ago
  Further, try to abide by their requests. If they want the trash can by the door to your office or cubicle on Thursday evening, move the damn trashcan to the door. They have 100 to empty; it's a trivial task for you. We can get wound up in ourselves and forget to hold a door, or avoid spilling crumbs on our carpet, or log out of our workstation, or use a different hallway when the floor is being waxed, or to move the trash can. It's not really a reflection on our self-importance. It's just a character flaw.
  • deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  • grammarnazzzi 4y ago
    > Further, try to abide by their requests. If they want the trash can by the door to your office or cubicle on Thursday evening, move the damn trashcan to the door. Better yet, take your damn trashcan out to the damn dumpster your own damn self. Then we can save some damn money and fire the damn janitor. > They have 100 to empty; it's a trivial task for you. It's a trivial part of their job. They're getting paid for it.
    • didericis 4y ago
      It’s trivial to correct code formatting. You’re getting paid to code, presumably. What’s the better world: one in which your colleagues make a trivial effort to install a linter and make their code nicely formatted before handing it off, or one in which they don’t bother, say it’s trivial and part of your job for you to correct it, and then threaten to fire you?
      • chillwaves 4y ago
        It's disheartening how antisocial well paid coders seem to be. I mean that in the most literal way.
    • lhorie 4y ago
      In Japanese schools, the kids are the ones doing the cleaning. Not just taking out the trash, but cleaning the blackboards, mopping the floor, tidying up the desks, cleaning the bathrooms, etc. The reasoning isn't to save money, however. It is precisely to teach them there's no such thing as work that is beneath them.
      • Gigachad 4y ago
        Probably makes them respect the space more when they are responsible for keeping it clean.
        • alliao 4y ago
          my granddad who was educated by Japanese says the crappiest stuff that made you clean like you meant it; don't read on if you don't want to be obsessed with cleaning stuff. on how to leaving any space... Even a bird will leave their nest in a tidy manner. on how to clean... treat the object you want to clean like it's your soul And man oh man did I wiped those mirrors...
  • saurik 4y ago
    I do get being nice to janitors--and I am happy to help them with something if asked, and I don't "ignore" them as noted in this article as I definitely agree that's rude to treat them as second-class humans unworthy of being regarded with eye contact or banter--but I am being paid to do my job and they are being paid to their job and if I am spending my time or mental energy doing part of their job then I feel like something in the division of labor has failed. No one wants me spending my time working on the website or managing the social media account, and while every department certainly has something I could add to my task list to make their job easier--such as going out of my way to maintain a high-level changelog of the product or maintain a list of new translation syringe--it is their job to let me do my job, and we hired the people to do the extra work of going back through the work I did and finding those things I didn't write down at the time so I could maximize the time I spend on new development or architecture or debugging or cutting server costs or whatever it is that I was hired to do. I also think there is something to the people who argue that if you go out of your way to put away carts or use self-checkout "to help the people who work there" without realizing that you are REPLACING the people who work there--as, due to your efforts, the company can hire fewer people to do whatever that job is--then you are not actually their friend. While I avoid getting crumbs on the carpet because it is likely to attract ants or cause other forms of permanent damage to the room in the form of ground-in debris or stains, it just isn't clear to me that the most "janitor friendly" action--in the long run--wouldn't be to actively create as large of a mess as I can without people deciding I am myself such a liability that I lose my own job (and one could imagine actually conspiring with the janitorial staff over creating such elaborate "but understandable" messes ;P). Certainly, if we merely move all the trash cans to where they are most quickly gathered, the company would be almost negligent to not assign the janitor some new task to fill the time that was saved (or reduce their hours, or scale down the department, etc.).
    • chillwaves 4y ago
      It's like 10 seconds of your time.
      • xmprt 4y ago
        It takes even less time if they were already planning on walking from the trashcan to a central location anyway.
  • quickthrower2 4y ago
    What is this “door” you speak of in the office? The agile police would surely have that removed pronto.
  • renewiltord 4y ago
    I never did any of this stuff but got along with them all. Theyplayed with my Oculus Quest, we'd shoot the shit sometimes, shared some of their bomb ass guacamole. Everyone's got their mode of interacting with people. I'm really not into this shaming people for not matching your interaction mode thing. This sanctimonious ostentatious virtuosity is really too much. To make it worse this is truly junk content. God help me.
  • lupire 4y ago
    It's hard for me to imagine a place where a janitor would dare make such a request. Usually service star are dreadfully afraid of getting abused by the (relatively) powerful problem all around them who can easily ruin their jobs and therefore lives by spite or just accident .
• doodlebugging 4y ago
  I'll not forget the first time I heard this song [0] by Junior Brown, Joe the Singing Janitor. [0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPMlhIw8E0k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPMlhIw8E0k My grandfather was a public school janitor after he moved from the farm to the big city for a better opportunity to feed and raise his kids. There were more than a dozen of them so steady work was important. He cleaned the school and in the process set his kids up to be responsible adults. My grandmother used her sewing skills to become seamstress for the wealthiest families in the city too. Neither of my grandparents ever got rich in their new work but they did survive and set their kids up for success. He had a mischievous twinkle in his eye and he loved telling stories. With a steady supply of grandkids from all his children he never lacked for an audience. Thanks for posting this.
• codelikeawolf 4y ago
  My first "real" job out of high school was working in a factory as a machine operator. There are two things that I remember hearing at some point that have always stuck with me: 1. It's nice to be important, but it's important to be nice. 2. Never forget where you came from, because you might end up back there someday.
  • feet 4y ago
    >It's nice to be important, but it's important to be nice. One of the best pieces of wisdom
  • BLKNSLVR 4y ago
    I've cleaned change rooms at an outdoor swimming pool. Things I'm glad I can say I've done, and probably helped on the way to dealing with the parenting of babies, but would be happy to never have to face again.
• mkmk 4y ago
  How horrifying that someone would only learn this as an adult…
• bdcravens 4y ago
  My father was an elementary school janitor, so I have a different perspective than some. Something I've repeated often: "My dad worked for a living. I just play with computers." Of course, in most offices in my part of the country, and I suspect in many other areas, is that the janitors are often Hispanic, with language being a common barrier. I wouldn't want to speculation about their immigration status, but knowing the economics here, I wouldn't be surprised either way. Unfortunately, it works out to be a de facto caste system, with the respect dynamic that accompanies.
  • Cupertino95014 4y ago
    The true test of character is how you treat someone who can't possibly do anything for you (anything big, I mean, not bringing your food). As for the language barrier: a smile is pretty universal.
    • ethbr0 4y ago
      There was a quip about an actor selecting an agent on the basis of how the agent treated food service employees, for the same reason. It doesn't take much effort to be respectful and decent, regardless of whether someone has something you want.
      • ryandrake 4y ago
        When I was single and dating, I found a high correlation between how a dating partner treated service workers (including waiters) and how nice/desirable a partner they were. Garbage people tend to treat service workers as their personal servants, to bully and abuse.
    • maxFlow 4y ago
      > Nothing discloses real character like the use of power. It is easy for the weak to be gentle. Most people can bear adversity. But if you wish to know what a man really is, give him power. This is the supreme test. (...) -- Ingersoll
• wikitopian 4y ago
  And for those of you working from home, quit ignoring and disrespecting your cat.
  • BLKNSLVR 4y ago
    Is it even possible to ignore your cat? There are few cats I've met that tolerate being ignored, they just escalate their activities until there's a choice between 'give attention to cat' and 'buy new carpet / furniture / bedding / clothes'. (coming from me though, who can't ignore the big, scruffy -to put it mildly - neighbourhood stray tom cat that comes to visit a few days per year for the last six or seven years)
  • coffeefirst 4y ago
    As far as the dog is concerned, I am the service staff.
• deltasevennine 4y ago
  I ignore the janitor because of the obvious wealth disparity between us. He works just as hard as me but is doing a job nobody likes and is paid less for it. It's completely unfair. And when I just see the janitor it's all I think about. This article is like, be nice to the people you step on. Yeah. I don't disagree with that sentiment.
  • rayiner 4y ago
    That seems like a rationalization to me, and one that doesn’t actually make anyone’s life better. Inequality is a fact of life. You both work hard, but you could do his job and he couldn’t do yours. He almost certainly knows that and has come to terms with it. You don’t interact with him because acknowledging the disparity causes you discomfort embarrassment. But doing that doesn’t make his life any better. And, of course, people aren’t just their jobs. Maybe you like the same sports team. Maybe he likes to talk about his kids. Who knows?
    • swatcoder 4y ago
      > you could do his job Not me. And I suspect most of the rest of us here couldn’t either. Most of us would wipe a few sinks, and leave as soon as we found something more “fitting” of the class we believe ourselves to be in. That’s quitting a job, not doing a job. Doing any kind of hard labor for a career takes something that most of us tech people simply don’t have.
      • jahewson 4y ago
        No that’s ridiculous. I don’t want to do that job and I wouldn’t choose it but I absolutely can do it. I cleaned my own house just fine for 20 years before I hired someone else to do it for me.
      • JamesBarney 4y ago
        I literally had a close family friend who went from lawyer to janitor after he got fucked over by a couple of dirty prosecutors. And he was absolutely able to do the job of a janitor. Being a janitor is definitely a more labor intensive job than software but it doesn't compare to something like pouring concrete or roofing.
• didericis 4y ago
  I feel like trading spaces every month or so with a different employee for a brief period of time would be a really, really positive exercise. If you could arrange it so you can mitigate business disruptions while people fumble around (maybe do whatever is typically done with new hires), I have a feeling the mutual appreciation for what other people contribute would lead to better cooperation. I know there are lots of TV shows and movies about this, so it’s not a novel idea or anything, and I understand the potential for it to backfire, but I can’t overstate the cooperative benefits of gratitude if you really understand and appreciate what it is everyone is contributing.
  • actually_a_dog 4y ago
    Yeah, there are almost too many reality shows like that, really. I wouldn't make it a "trading places" thing. I'd like to see a full semester of retail work and a full semester of food service work be a requirement to get a bachelor's degree. I've done both, and for far longer than a semester each. One thing it taught me was to never get angry at someone who's trying to help me.
• rdtsc 4y ago
  My mom was a night guard, then a janitor for many years. I tagged along to some places she worked. I got to play and hang out after hours in the interesting buildings. But yeah, we were "invisible" so to speak. People were often impolite and rude to us because they saw us as beneath them. I always make a point smile and greet the janitors and other service workers I encounter, partly because I know what it feels like to be "invisible".
• rr808 4y ago
  I always try to talk to everyone but I'm not sure its the right thing to do. The guy who talks the most is a manager who is worth tens of millions but talks and laughs with the Janitor, its nice but you know he'll never get invited around for dinner which makes it a bit fake to me.
  • kayodelycaon 4y ago
    Look at it this way, if you’re sincere, you’re acknowledging the person matters to you. You don’t need everyone you talk to be your friend.
  • lalopalota 4y ago
    idk, that makes it seem more real. there shouldn't be a requirement of being "friends" just to have conversations with people.
  • jahewson 4y ago
    What sort of miserable world do you want to live in where you can only talk to and laugh with your closest friends?
    • rr808 4y ago
      Sounds like Europe lol.
• a-dub 4y ago
  some custodians like to shoot the shit. others do not. same with lobby staff. when they do i've found that it's worth listening, they sometimes have very interesting things to say. same used to go for nyc cab drivers, although it's a bit different in the uber era. i have a book sitting on my shelf that was written (and self promoted) by a cab driver.
  • 4oo4 4y ago
    Very true. Everyone at the very least deserves a basic greeting and acknowledgement, but it's unrealistic to expect anyone on the job to socialize at length. Especially if that person was just berated or humiliated by someone "important" on a power trip, extremely stressed by the job, or is preoccupied with personal issues that you have no idea about. I've been in that position before. I think privilieged people that don't have the same kind of stressors in their life that working class people frequently have, can then scoff when that person doesn't have the time or energy for a conversation, as if they expect those beneath them to entertain them with conversation in addition to their job duties. It's surprising how much taking 5 seconds to say "Hi, how's it going" can improve any interaction.
• BLKNSLVR 4y ago
  Feels like this quote fits perfectly into this context: “I’ve learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel.” (Attributed to Maya Angelou) It's one of those things so obvious once you know. Not like I was anywhere near a total jerk beforehand, but it changed how I approached lots of different interactions.
• suprjami 4y ago
  I cannot stand it when people ignore (or even worse, are hostile to) custodial staff. If anyone ever thinks taking out the trash is an unimportant job, try living without rubbish collection for a week. Suddenly it will become very important! Show some appreciation for these people doing a very laborious and repetitive job for minimal pay, often outside regular business hours, and so probably cuts into their family time.
  • greendude29 4y ago
    Agreed, but basic respect shouldn't be dependent on whether or not someone has an important job.
• tomek_zemla 4y ago
  There is a famous photograph from the White House of Obama stopping to fist bump a janitor with a mop. It would be a great illustration for this blog post.
  • ChrisOstler 4y ago
    I couldn't help but look for it. I found https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/photos-and-video/photo/2012/08/president-barack-obama-fist-bumps-custodian https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/photos-and-video/photo/...
  • crackercrews 4y ago
    Justice Thomas is also well-known for knowing everyone's names. > He knows the janitors, cafeteria workers, everyone. He knows their names, the names of their family members, where they're in school, and he is viewed by the law clerks of all the justices as the most accessible of the court's members. 1: https://www.npr.org/2011/10/11/141246695/clarence-thomas-influence-on-the-court https://www.npr.org/2011/10/11/141246695/clarence-thomas-inf...
• UIUC_06 4y ago
  In addition to janitors & wait staff: you can chat with the homeless people, too. You don't have to ask them about "their situation" or offer to help them. Weather, sports, the traffic... just treat them like a person who's not invisible. Before anyone jumps up & objects: yes, there are a lot of homeless who don't want to talk to you, or who are downright dangerous. You can avoid those.
  • deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  • dazc 4y ago
    How do you pick out someone as being homeless? I'm in the UK and (accepting in the US it may be different?) there is a common misconception that people who sit in shop doorways begging for money are 'homeless' people when, in fact, they are usually just people who have a drug habit they need to continually finance. The real homeless people are doing their best to blend into the background and not to look homeless. [I used to be such a person]
    • UIUC_06 4y ago
      If you like to talk to people with a drug habit who just want your money, be my guest. It might be a rather focused conversation, though.
• greendude29 4y ago
  Is...being decent to everyone regardless of job status in life a new thing? Has tech come so far that we have to re-teach ourselves the basics and then brag about how we smile at "service staff"? Up next in a techbro blog post: "I have discovered that money doesn't buy happiness, and that being an asshole isn't a good thing."
  • vishnugupta 4y ago
    It’s not exactly limited to tech but is more general to knowledge workers. Especially ones who employ support staff even at their homes. Over time they get so far removed from doing household chores that they begin to treat it as beneath them and hence the staff as unworthy of their respect. I’m saying this being from a nation where employing household cooks, maids etc is norm once a certain income threshold is crossed, and where owing to really high inequities human labor is extremely low cost.
    • lupire 4y ago
      It's general advice for any oblivious wealthy people. Many are so insulated from the rest of society that they don't even know they are wealthy.
  • Barrin92 4y ago
    as a tech guy who comes from a family of blue collar and service industry workers I always have to laugh a little bit about pieces like this. It always reads like someone just went on a safari and found an exotic animal or found themselves in Good Will Hunting. Like, more than half of the population doesn't have a college degree. Store clerk, janitor, delivery driver etc are the most common jobs around, I always wonder how people manage to dodge all of them. That said I don't think the piece is that bad because the author at least genuinely seems to try and to be kind, there are quite a few people in the industry who are genuinely callous.
    • Flankk 4y ago
• dr_kiszonka 4y ago
  I often work till the very late evening, which gives me a chance to meet most of the custodial staff. Some of them have very good, eye-opening stories, showing me how lucky I am in life (and I am making waaaay below what I perceive HN folks to earn). It is also a good opportunity to practice foreign languages and to try some foods I haven't eaten before. (I sometimes bring some homemade food for folks who take care of the office and they sometimes reciprocate, even though I do my best to make it clear that they don't have to.) I would highly recommend trying to get to know the "janitors!"
• Arainach 4y ago
  This seems harder in our modern world where everything is contracted out to the lowest bidder. I've had great conversations with custodial staff at schools, parks, and other areas that actually hire the workers. At my day job, a giant corporation which hires its engineers but outsources its janitors, chefs, and so on, there's a totally different vibe. Even the few janitors that speak English are both rushed to complete their tasks in the insufficient allotted time and almost terrified to talk to the normal employees, presumably due to the perceived power balance - were an employee to complain about them, the vendor would almost certainly fire them rather than risk offending the client. It's not fair, but it is reality, and it means that even when I do say hello or hold a door or whatever I don't get a response.
  • theteapot 4y ago
    > ... it means that even when I do say hello or hold a door or whatever I don't get a response. I'm sure they find it condescending. This whole post is kind of condescending TBH.
    • turboponyy 4y ago
      Yeah, you shouldn't need an article to tell you to say hello to people working in the same building as you - especially if they're service workers.
      • idorube 4y ago
        Absolutely agree, this is a condescending humble brag that never should have been posted in the first place.
    • rocqua 4y ago
      Are you arguing it is condescending to say hi to custodial staff?
      • theteapot 4y ago
        I'm arguing treating "custodial staff" as some distinct group that deserves special treatment, in deep need of your smiles and door holding is condescending. The tone of the original article and this reply came across like the authors think they're somehow above the "custodial staff". Like they are lords talking about the peasantry.
• iJohnDoe 4y ago
• michaelwww 4y ago
  Well, I prefer that people ignore me when I work in service roles. There's no better way to observe people in their natural habitat. I once drove Uber and Lyft for a couple of years and was fascinated by what I learned by people who thought they were confessing to an uneducated driver. Why do this? Well maybe you're writing a book or working on a PhD thesis. https://learn.trakstar.com/blog/janitors-with-phds https://learn.trakstar.com/blog/janitors-with-phds
• planetjones 4y ago
  I think the quote attributed to Muhammad Ali is pretty apt here: “don’t trust anyone who’s nice to me but rude to the waiter. Because they would treat me the same way if I were in that position.”
• plaguepilled 4y ago
  As someone who has worked a few service jobs: oh god please don't start a conversation with me if I'm on my lonesome. This advice needs a huge sticker that says 'mileage may vary'. Not everyone wants the silence to be punctuated with smalltalk.
  • jimmydddd 4y ago
    I agree with this comment. YMMV. I tend to just naturally start up conversations with service folks, and at least half the time they appear to be annoyed.
  • civilized 4y ago
    This was going to be my first question!
    • peterburkimsher 4y ago
      Full AI likes to be interrupted by SmallTalk programmers making buggy software to fix real life. Thank you, GBY.
  • halcy 4y ago
    The person doing the cleaning on our office floor always wears very large and conspicuous probably noise canceling headphones, while working. Guessing she has had one too many person trying to make awkward conversation while she was just trying to get the coffee cups in the wash as quickly as possible.
    • peterburkimsher 4y ago
      Headphones are just a social signal of "Do Not Disturb". Or maybe just listening to music. Things have different meanings in different contexts.
  • dollo_7 4y ago
    The author's point of view seems to me quite condescending. Like being the janitor is considered less (and that, inevitably, everybody sees the janitor that way), so the author is trying to flip that view around (because he can, he is "not less"). Needless to say that being polite is out of the question here, and that I am sure that the author's intentions are not what I just commented, but I can't help to read it that way. I would agree that "please" and "thank you" can take you far, however you don't just have to address them to the janitor, it's for everybody.
• csours 4y ago
  Whenever I notice someone doing menial work, I try to say something like "Thanks for looking out for us" or "Thanks for taking care of us" I don't know all the names of the security and janitorial folks, but I do know a few.
  • jonas21 4y ago
    That sounds a bit patronizing to be honest.
    • csours 4y ago
      Yea, it can be taken that way. Anything can. You still have to put the good vibes out there.
      • deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
• molszanski 4y ago
  This is so baffling and sad that we have “remind” people to do that. I know we do have, still can’t believe it
• speedgoose 4y ago
  I work in Oslo and the janitors are not ignored. Could it be the kind of people at his workplace?
• deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
• rollulus 4y ago
  This is the kind of content that could've been at LinkedIn for /r/LinkedInLunatics to drool over. The only thing that's missing is the vertical line spacing. Why is this on top of HN? "Mind blown, I just learned about the concept of treating people nicely regardless of their job"?
  • johnfn 4y ago
    I don't know; the article is hardly self-aggrandizing (which is the primary attribute I see on /r/LinkedInLunatics), and certainly some of us could appreciate the reminder, myself included. Do we really have to be all intellectual, all the time on HN?
    • deelly 4y ago
      > Do we really have to be all intellectual, all the time on HN? Actually why not? We have a lot of "just to evoke emotions" social media platforms out there.
      • jack_pp 4y ago
        I suspect most of HN doesn't use those
        • deelly 4y ago
          Definitely. Probably for a reason.
  • cma 4y ago
    > Why is this on top of HN? "Mind blown, I just learned about the concept of treating people nicely regardless of their job"? I don't see anything wrong with the post. Treating nicely can surely be extended to its author as well.
    • makach 4y ago
      I agree, treat OP nicely. Also, I'll use this opportunity to quote the great philosopher Scooter "It's nice to be important, but it is more important to be nice!"
• _8j50 4y ago
  I try to avoid strangers. If I was a janitor I wouldn't want people bothering me, especially because they feel bad for me or they feel guilty. You shouldn't be rude and I have no problem with and do nod/smile at cleaning/security/service staff but I am not good at smalltalk or whatever so I treat everyone the same and ignore people unless I know them and have something to talk about. I really dislike insincere or forced displays of kindness although one should force themselves to be polite when appropriate if it doesn't come naturally.
  • jiggywiggy 4y ago
    Yeah it feels kind of condescending the way it's written. However if it's not forced it's just the most natural to be kind to strangers, service role or note. And you are kinda an a** if you are rude to random strangers, just they way the wrote it is awful.
  • minimilian 4y ago
    • cyborgx7 4y ago
      ?
    • rocqua 4y ago
      It seems to be a result of they as a gender neutral singular pronoun. Which has a long history. Here oneself also works, perhaps even is more correct, but with the increased prominence of them as a singular pronoun, I can see why people write it like this.
      • minimilian 4y ago
      • implements 4y ago
        Hesitates to venture that "more correct" isn't itself great English ... :)
• josh_fyi 4y ago
  You should certainly be nice to the janitor: They are not part of office politics and so can afford to just interact naturally and decently. Conversely, people are careful to stay on guard to threats and opportunities in interpersonal power-games, and so when they see the janitor, the fact that politics does not apply makes them relax and behave naturally: This is either rudely or nicely, depending on the individual's character.
• programmer_dude 4y ago
  I did this for roughly the first 25 years of my life. I no longer think it is a good idea. People invariably end up asking for money.
• cabbagesauce 4y ago
  As someone who worked as a high school kid for several weeks wiping the streets, I think post is complete bs. At first, when I enrolled into this job 7 to 3, to keep a designated govt area clean, I was fascinated with the fact I clock at 3 PM. This gig was to earn extra $$ for my upcoming trip. First day was entertaining as I do believe making things clean and in order is rewarding. But after a week of shoving the broom, I understood a few concepts: no matter how hard you fight the dust, sand, leaves on the street — next day will bring you the same. On top of it, humans litter. And they litter a lot. On top of it, the area had a pond. And we used to get a boat with the old-timer working there in his retirement and fish out plastic bags, glass bottles from the bottom of the pond. It was disgusting at what people do to the nature at this leisure area they have... The only thing this job taught me is to throw the garbage into a bin, and if I miss — pick it up and put it back myself. And the next second thing, is that this job teaches you to be humble and disciplined. As it reduces your potential to one of the most primitive functions a human being can perform for money. Given this, the condescending tone that is deemed as nice by the small-talk initiator — is plain hypocrisy to make him feel like a good person and show off with the blog post we have right now.
• dclowd9901 4y ago
  Grandma may have been a kindred spirit of Vonnegut. “God dammit, you’ve got to be kind.” This quote, and idea, has stuck to me more than any I’ve ever read. Be kind, because… well, why not?
• codewiz 4y ago
  When I was at the Cambridge office of Google, I liked to work until late. When the lights went out and the open space went quiet, finally I could get in the flow. The cleaners were coming in after dinner. Many of them were Latin Americans, so I could engage in simple conversations to keep my Spanish fresh. A man from the Dominican Republic told me that previously he was a "periodista", a journalist, but his education wasn't applicable in the United States because he barely spoke English. English literacy can be a huge economic advantage even in non-English speaking countries. My doctor in Tokyo could make a higher salary than ordinary Japanese doctors with the same qualifications, simply for working in an international clinic. Same goes for teachers in international schools. Many multinational companies which require English in their branch offices will pay higher than average salaries for engineers, sales and management.
  • vegardx 4y ago
    For some people just being proficient and comfortable in the local language can be a huge advantage. But it can be very hard to get any kind of real world experience, especially in countries with a high proficiency in English. Just like you I often stay late in the office to get into the zone, and I became friends with one of the janitors. We even started going to the gym together. I met his family. In just half a year his Norwegian improved so much that we went from trying to make conversations to actually discussing things. Then covid happened and everyones lives got turned upside down.
• kieckerjan 4y ago
  Call it professional deformation, but I came into this expecting an article on the sneaky ways in which automatic janitor services can mess up a digital system. I cannot count on two hands the number of times the culprit of mysteriously disappearing records/files turned out to be an overzealous janitor service. I will try to be nicer to them next time.
• geocrasher 4y ago
  I recently witnessed a customer treating a food server at a small Chinese restaurant quite badly. It was a very upsetting because she is such a sweet woman who really takes her job seriously. Next time she was at our table I commented to her that people who treat her like garbage are simply showing their inner self, which is in fact garbage. Indeed you can learn a lot about a person by how they treat people who are in their service.
  • rvba 4y ago
    Isnt it common knowledge that if you treat people handling your food badly they will spit into it? (Obviously not all of them)
• kqr 4y ago
  Okay, some people apparently need a reminder to be nice and friendly with other people. Great. But maybe not very interesting. Here's something I find more interesting: software consultant/pioneer Gerald Weinberg (I think!) said that if you want to find out what's wrong in an organisation, don't talk to the people who work there – talk to the janitors, landlords, etc. These people may not understand a single thing about the work that goes on, but they deal with the physical artifacts that enable the work, and the physical artifacts always tell a story.
• deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
• rvba 4y ago
  One thing is not to be an asshole and respect people, but other is that janitors seem to not understand that when people who sit in the office after hours probably are doing unpaid overtime (in some companies you can at least take those hours back) and would prefer to finish their tasks as fast as possible and go home. I used to work 9 to 5 (sometimes 9 to 8) and sure, I can greet the janitor, have some small talk, but I dont have the time to listen to their life story. And some janitors really liked to talk a lot, while I just wanted to finish my job and go home. (If they started at 6pm they were fresh at the beginning of their shift, while I should have already left 1 hour earlier). So I understand why my colleagues (especially ones who had kids) ignored the janitors. If you leave 15 minutes earlier, you have 15 more minutes for your kid. If you are late the kid will be asleep. And yes I talked with janitors, but I remember that one lady who thought that everyone can talk with her for 30 minutes at 7pm and just wouldnt take a clue to move on. She didnt understand that the team was stuck at work after hours to finish something important, it was an abnormal situation.
• rdl 4y ago
  I'm reasonably friendly with office cleaners at buildings where I have clients/etc (it's a way to practice my Spanish, plus I'm often there at odd hours, and it's a good way to evaluate some security threats.). Still, it's usually contracted out to outside companies, etc. (Same with security guards) Actual janitors/facility maintenance people, on the other hand, are usually super interesting to talk to about maintenance/infrastructure issues, potential efficiency or other upgrades, etc.
• d--b 4y ago
  I find that this actually is a major cultural difference between America and Europe. Americans being way friendler.
• ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
  I’ve always made a point of not just being respectful, but of actively cultivating relationships, with “lower-echelon” folks. There’s personal reasons for this, which aren’t really relevant (for example, I am mostly self-taught, and have been treated like crap for most of my life by those with formal schooling), but I’ve often found these folks to be interesting, appreciative of the respect, great sources of information (when you are invisible, people say stuff around you), and, quite often, able to be very helpful. At my previous company, I made friends with the service techs, down in the basement. They provided my department with thousands of dollars worth of utility kit (like cables and batteries), and often fixed my stuff, very quickly.
• napolux 4y ago
  In my language we use the 3rd person as a sign of respect when we talk to others we don't know. Many people when talking to janitors use the more colloquial 2nd person. That's really harsh if you ask me, unless you know them very well.
  • optimalsolver 4y ago
    >we use the 3rd person as a sign of respect when we talk to others we don't know Interesting. What language is that?
    • napolux 4y ago
      Italian. :)
      • optimalsolver 4y ago
        Thanks!
• kmac_ 4y ago
  That applies how vendors/contractors are treated in our industry. Oh man, some FTEs have no manners.
• throwaway0a5e 4y ago
  I used to be a janitor. I preferred if you people ignored me. I don't want to have to tiptoe around not offending the sensibilities of people I have little to nothing in common with. If I wanted to interact with you people I could have made the same money operating a cash register instead of a mop.
• technotarek 4y ago
  PSA for the younger reader and / or parents: Try being the janitor. I was effectively the janitor for a public ice arena outside Detroit from the age of 14 to 16. I cleaned public restrooms, as well as hockey locker rooms. I emptied large trash bins (thankfully before recycling was mainstream). I cleaned below the bleachers. That was probably the worst. But, if I may say, that experience helped mold me, for the better. People were rude to me, but it wasn’t quite as consistently bad as I might have thought. Perhaps it was my age that softened the treatment and showed slightly more humanity. In any case, I wear the experience as a proud badge of honor (as if you can’t tell). And yes, just be nice.
  • Dalewyn 4y ago
    Over in Japan, it's quite common in schools for the students to clean the classrooms, club rooms, hallways, and occasionally also the restrooms themselves. The schools mandate it as part of the curriculum, since it teaches vital life skills and builds character. The schools have janitors on their payroll, of course.
    • onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
      When did this policy come about?
      • Dalewyn 4y ago
        I don't know the details, but it's been a long-standing tradition for as long as anyone can remember. Cleaning up after yourself and keeping everything nice and tidy for everyone are just facts of life in Japanese society.
    • chmod775 4y ago
      The secondary school I went to in Germany made students clean and rake the outside areas. Though with a class of around twenty it never took longer than an hour. I never inquired why we did it, not expecting a straight answer anyways. I suspect it had more to do with discouraging littering than any deeper character lesson.
• protomyth 4y ago
  How about something much simpler, throw your used paper towels INTO the garbage can in the bathroom. I am amazed by the number of supposed professionals that leave them on the counter or just on the floor. It boggles my mind how hard this is for some people.
  • Tade0 4y ago
    I've asked one co-worker once why he litters. His reply was: "there are people employed to take care of this for me". I had no reply to such a statement.
    • protomyth 4y ago
      Its basic psychopathic behavior. The lack of care for causing others work is just beyond my comprehension.
• Twisell 4y ago
  I don't get why a lot of people here are trying to rationalize why it's ok to ignore service workers... You are not requested to engage in small talk every time that isn't OP point. Also while I usually say hello to every worker with whom I have eye contact, I obviously don't interrupt busy people. The point is that some office workers avoid eye contact with janitors and they shouldn't. As my former boss used to say a good recruitment process start by asking receptionist if the candidate treated them well. Without service workers our work conditions could literally turn into a pile of shit and they deserve utter respect.
• trwhite 4y ago
  This reminds me of the John Prime song "Hello in There"
• Tade0 4y ago
  When I read articles like these I get a feeling that there's a whole other society out there with very different customs than the ones I'm familiar with. There are bubbles, I get it. But how prevalent is this?
• tialaramex 4y ago
  I thought this might be about physical security. If you claim to have a secure working environment, I'm not looking for an unsecured VPN, or an unpatched SSH server, I'm asking who cleans up. The two correct answers are: * Nobody, that's why this place looks like a fucking wreck. * We all take turns, I hate it. If you have cleaners, there is no way that's not a security risk. Firstly you probably pay a contractor, which means you're not even interviewing or vetting these staff. The contractor will say they do that, but they're actually picking up as many illiterate immigrants as they can who'll take less than minimum wage and be happy nobody checked their documentation, because they keep the profits. Even if the management doesn't do that, their people on the ground do. Secondly, even if you hire these staff yourself, realistically your standards are poor and turnover is high. Nobody has "Clean up other people's trash" as their career goal except in some vague "Fix the Pacific garbage island" elevator pitch sense. So either way if I want access to your "secure" environment I just have to pretend to need the work and ignore all the red flags to get a cleaning job. And then, as the article implies, I become invisible. A guy in a Ninja outfit roaming the offices late at night is a call to the cops. But put them in overalls and give them a black plastic sack now they're a cleaner, carry on. What's in the sack? It's just garbage of course. Well, OK it's the 23-25 financial strategy, a copy of our internal price list and six unlabelled USB drives that used to be on people's desks. No problem, the black sack covers many sins.
  • FumblingBear 4y ago
    Our custodial staff come into secure facilities to clean—they just need to be escorted by a person who does have an active security clearance. We have a duty roster that everybody rotates through in the office space for both lockup and escorting custodial staff. It's only a security risk if you don't mitigate it through physical security policies.
  • _vdpp 4y ago
    Vetted custodial staff with security clearances exist! As far as custodial pay goes, having a TS/SCI is probably going to put you in the top tier, it pays to stay out of trouble sometimes. The security risk is a good reason to follow the advice of the article though - know your people. Also, badging and physical security.
• m0llusk 4y ago
  This can also be something of a trap. For some time now I have worked as a housecleaner and there is a common scenario that I have learned to avoid: Clients are friendly and ask how you are. Cleaners then answer honestly about how this is an opportunity for them and hard physical work is all between them and crushing poverty. Clients are generally unprepared for the extreme problems that people living as cleaners may face, so the conversation tend to end roughly with clients wishing they had stuck to basic politeness instead of daring genuine inquisitiveness. As a result, when I train people to work with me as cleaners I specifically recommend that they be polite and conversational, but focus as much as possible on the task and the client. The reality is that most clients of cleaners tend to be genuinely disturbed by how cleaners live in this society and the challenges they face, so it is better to gloss over all of that.
  • LBJsPNS 4y ago
    Because god knows the rich folks can't have their delicate psyche disturbed by the intrusion of reality. Yes, I know you have a business to run. I also know that if people are allowed to isolate themselves from uncomfortable realities, those realities are likely to continue.
    • RHSeeger 4y ago
      This is overly condescending of rich folks. The "I wasn't looking for a real, detailed answer to _how are you_" is a common thing in the US. It's a pleasantry, and (for people you aren't close to), most people don't expect a detailed answer. It is in NO way unique to rich, poor, or any other segment of society in the US.
      • blueflow 4y ago
        Some people have thin skin and sometimes its tiring to work around it. I wish i could be more open about my "this and that is in shambles but i'll have managed it next week" without people getting uncomfortable.
        • 4y ago
• dakial1 4y ago
  Do people here from outside the US think this is the case everywhere? Because I'm from Latin America (more specifically Brazil) and I don't think ignoring the lower paid staff is the status quo. Actually it is considered pretty rude not to at least acknowledge them and say the usual pleasantries (Good Morning, Hey Jon!, etc...). Having been to the US I'd say I don't think that is a fact everywhere also. In NYC for sure, as people are more transactional with each other, or SV where people are awfully superficial/shallow. But I've been to cities where people are much warmer (from the top of my head, San Diego). One step further I'd recommend you to do is to sometimes move past from the "automatic pleasantries". For example, when the cashier at the fast food asks you "hello, how are you sir", instead of answering "fine, thanks, I want...." go for "I'm good Jennifer, and you? How are you doing today?". My experience is that this always get people off guard and has a very positive impact of them, as bring them back to a more human (and less transactional) aspect of the interaction.
  • kradeelav 4y ago
    Very much agreed ... was raised in a mixed Southern and Spanish household and think this topic is saying a lot more about certain people and casual apathy towards their own fellow people than they probably would like. The line that I was told was to always treat the CEO and the janitor the same (with the understood: because they're humans). Funnily enough, my Colombian grandfather had a memorable related quip as far as not idolizing others to the other extreme, roughly translated to: "they shit in the pot the same way you do."
    • garciasn 4y ago
      I grew up in a middle class blue-collar household and I was taught to treat service folks well; I try to do so today. That said, in Minnesota where I reside, acknowledging and talking to strangers is generally seen as something you do not do socially. For recent transplants I am sure it's alienating and uncomfortable; however, that's just the culture here.
  • engineer_22 4y ago
    Using first name is patronizing unless you're already on a first-name basis.
• namelessoracle 4y ago
  If I am a janitor i REALLY don't want the rich guy bugging me in an office setting. That interaction has a high chance of getting me fired/in trouble, either via me making a wrong comment (or even the right comment but not the right degree of enthusiasm) or me getting slowed down in my work because the rich person wants to chit chat with the plebes. One of the few benefits of janitorial work is the fact that you can just do your job and not play fake nice all day. If we are talking about personal home cleaning, the personal interactions are more important and would be welcome because building those personal relationships is very important to maintain clients.
• adultSwim 4y ago
  Janitors do real useful work, while most of us do not.