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I just completed a ~1600km drive back from visiting family. Half way through the outbound trip, in the middle of the mountains, I had to make a 300km detour du

I just completed a ~1600km drive back from visiting family. Half way through the outbound trip, in the middle of the mountains, I had to make a 300km detour due to a massive accident (two semi trucks head-on closed a mountain highway for more than a day). The detour was through a valley with no cellphone coverage for 150+km. At a rest stop I met a tesla driver in a panic. Without internet he was unable to figure out whether he should continue, turn around, or wait out the accident. That was the one and only electric vehicle I saw that day. There are some parts of this planet where it it very hard to envision mass EV adoption. (Here is a link if anyone wants to confirm my story, but be warned. You cannot unread this. It was a horrible accident.) https://www.aldergrovestar.com/news/fatal-semi-truck-collision-closes-highway-1-near-golden-for-over-24-hours/ https://www.aldergrovestar.com/news/fatal-semi-truck-collisi...

pjc50 4y ago
> There are some parts of this planet where it it very hard to envision mass EV adoption. Perhaps, but how are they going to adapt to significantly lower CO2 emission? Through drastically increased prices? Or just accept the 4C warming and hope the fires are after your lifetime?
ThunderSizzle 4y ago
Your facts are inconvenient and will probably just be dismissed sadly. EVs need to win by being better without more risk, not by trying to ban people currently using ICEs.
- sandworm101 4y ago
  More inconvenient facts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Fort_McMurray_wildfire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Fort_McMurray_wildfire https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7E_OLgC4nV0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7E_OLgC4nV0 88,000 people in perhaps 50,000 vehicles all taking the ONE road out of town. Some kind companies setup fuel trucks by the roadside to top up tanks. Gas delivery can be scaled up and even made portable in an emergency. Had those 50,000 vehicles all been EVs, tens of thousands of people would have been stuck beside the road hoping the fire picked a different direction.
  - epistasis 4y ago
    It seems like cars are the problem here though? If people want to live in remote areas and pollute a ton, that's just fine as long as they pay to clean up the mess they make for everyone else. Direct carbon capture from the air is about $500/ton right now, which is only about $5/gallon of gas.
    - sandworm101 4y ago
      >> If people want to live in remote areas and pollute a ton Well... if you want lumber, minerals, metals, petrochemicals and food, then you too will need people living "in remote areas".
      - epistasis 4y ago
        Seems fine as long as they pay to clean up their mess, which means that their costs will be higher which they pass on.
        sandworm101 4y ago
        The next time I see a farmer I'll pass along that it is "fine" that he continue growing the food people eat. He will appreciate having permission so to do.
        epistasis 4y ago
        I don't think you understand what I was saying "fine" too. But people need to pay for the damage they inflict on the world. Nobody is so "special" or snowflake that they get exempted. Farmers are adults, they can be treated like any other adult in our society.
        osigurdson 4y ago
        It seems that we are redefining things such that the only way to cause "damage" to the world is via carbon emissions (humans are very good at focusing on one metric to the exclusion of all others). Is there any "damage" done in having greater numbers of the world's poor die of starvation since we've reduced agricultural output in our quest to reduce carbon emissions? Perhaps we can dabble in fertilizer reduction after we've exhausted carbon capture from coal fired electricity plants (particularly in China and the US who are the largest emitters and still use a lot of coal) or at least converted those to natural gas. Messing with agriculture, particularly right now with the current geopolitical situation is very stupid.
- epistasis 4y ago
  When gas cars were first around, people carried extra gas around with them. Eventually we built gas stations, but somehow cars still got a toehold even without those gas stations pre-existing. There are very very very few places without electricity in the world. Are there some places where emergency conditions make travel inconvenient or uncertain? Sure, but these rare situations are narrowing daily. If that was the only Tesla you saw that day, there's a good reason for it. Fortunately those sorts of rare areas have nearly zero population, and account for nearly zero of the miles we need to switch from gas to EVs, so if they stay gasoline powered for a few more years, it's not a big obstacle to overcome.
  - sandworm101 4y ago
    >> There are very very very few places without electricity in the world. Today. Right now. This is happening. Not Africa or Antarctica. In Canada. In a national park during a busy long weekend. https://edmonton.ctvnews.ca/be-prepared-officials-warn-of-potential-jasper-power-outage-as-chetamon-wildfire-grows-1.6055539 https://edmonton.ctvnews.ca/be-prepared-officials-warn-of-po... " Should the situation worsen, Richard Ireland, Jasper's mayor, recommended residents and visitors to the park ensure their essential electric devices remain fully charged and that their vehicles have full tanks of gas — since gas stations rely on electricity. "We are already prepared to move to generated power for our own critical infrastructure, but that does not power lights in a residential home or your fridge or anything else," Ireland said. "So be prepared.""
    - epistasis 4y ago
      Yes that is a story, but what is its relevance to what I am writing?
      - osigurdson 4y ago
        Perhaps because you suggest that the areas OP is referring to have near zero population when clearly that is not the case.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
seanmcdirmid 4y ago
I've been in situations in an ICE where I've been diverted and had no clue where the next gas station would be (not really uncommon in Nevada or California). Heck, I've been on an actual interstate through Kansas in the middle of the night and...I had trouble finding an open gas station for our car (bad planning on my part, I thought 40 miles of range was surely enough to find the next one, I never saw gas stations close at night before!).
- al_mandi 4y ago
  Part of planning for very long road trips should be to carry a spare can of gas with you to account for incidents.
  - seanmcdirmid 4y ago
    I never expected to run out of gas on an interstate. We aren't talking about a highway in the middle of nowhere Nevada, supposedly Kansas is populated with little towns everywhere (which seem to close their gas stations at night). And ya, when you are at some place like Crater Lake National Park, you don't really think too deeply about how the next gas station might be 100 miles out. If I was going into the Australian outback, preparations are necessary, but running out of gas due to poor planning or unexpected situations is at least as common as running out of battery due to similar poor planning (or unexpected situations).
    - katbyte 4y ago
      Running out of gas is an easy fix, go get a jerry can of petrol. What happens to an ev? Tow to the nearest charger?
      - seanmcdirmid 4y ago
        Mobile charging is a possibility: > Most gas-powered generators that your roadside assistance will come with provide 9.6 kilowatts and generate 240 volts. Inquire with your roadside assistance provider to know whether they offer a mobile charge. Often that not, they may be offering it. Ya, they are coming with basically with a diesel generator that outputs 240 volts...which should give you 20 or so miles in 30 minutes? Or towing (on a flatbed) to the nearest charger is an option if you can't bring power to the car.
ehnto 4y ago
Plugin series hybrids are becoming popular here in Australia where distances and use cases like that are common. Same approach that diesel electric trains use for similar reasons. EV drivetrain with an ICE generator. Efficiency and drivability of the EV drivetrain, with robust fueling options. You may rarely need the petrol generator in daily commuting, but then you head interstate and have all the current infrastructure to work with.
NegativeLatency 4y ago
> driving prized cattle from a show, some of which were 4h projects That was worse than I thought it was going to be.
- sandworm101 4y ago
  Ya. The local authorities did a very good job in preventing anyone from taking pictures. I'm not for censorship, but those images do not need to be public knowledge imho.
YeBanKo 4y ago
What exactly did he need internet for?
- sandworm101 4y ago
  To find the nearest charging station along the detour route. He was already down below 1/2 charge, meaning he couldn't go back the way he came.
  - YeBanKo 4y ago
    I am surprised that that don't have an offline version for the maps. The location of the charge station does not change that often, operational status might, but few hours stale data should still be sufficient to navigate.
anon291 4y ago
Europeans don't understand how sparse and unpopulated the United States is . Even if they visit they visit the densely populated areas not realizing that most Americans regularly drive across areas where you may not see anyone for miles around. It's not that uncommon an occurrence. Most Americans will do something like this a few times a year. Many do it daily... Canadians too
- alisonatwork 4y ago
  To be fair, I'd wager that the vast majority of Americans live, work and travel within 100km of a gas station at all times. That number could be pushed even higher if you include distance from any ordinary electrical power outlet that could theoretically be used to charge an EV. It's true that parts of the Canada and the US are very sparsely populated, but EV adoption could happen (and is happening) across much of the region anyway because realistically it's still only a few people who regularly spend their lives hours away from any kind of service whatsoever.
  - Gibbon1 4y ago
    Friend of mine lives in a small town. There is a gas station. The guy that runs it is an asshole and it's expensive either way. The cheap gas station is 75 miles away in town with the grocery and big box stores. When you consider the whole cycle of gas up in town. Drive home, hope you have enough gas next week to get back to town. An EV would be less hassle and stress.
    - jakzurr 4y ago
      Good point. EV can be more convenient, and plug-in hybrid gives you a choice you might not have had, otherwise.
- simongray 4y ago
  > most Americans regularly drive across areas where you may not see anyone for miles around 83% of Americans live in urban areas. Why would they "regularly drive across areas where [they] may not see anyone for miles around"...? Are you sure you're not just extrapolating from your own experience?
shusson 4y ago
> There are some parts of this planet where it it very hard to envision mass EV adoption. A lot of EV's are already at 500km range. Within this decade we should see 1000km range. Add some charging infrastructure and we are gold. Just look at the chargers Tesla has built in California (and there is still a lot of potential to improve).
- ReptileMan 4y ago
  No EV has 500 km range when you drive it in real world conditions. If you drive it with normal highway speed - 140-160 km/h you can barely get 250.
  - redox99 4y ago
    In real world conditions the highest range Model S can do 320 miles (515km) [1] Also 140-160 km/h aren't normal highway speed. They are in fact illegal in almost all countries. [1] https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a36302930/tesla-model-s-long-range-plus-highway-range-testing/ https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a36302930/tesla-model-s-lo...
    - ReptileMan 4y ago
      Who cares if they are legal if everyone drives at them. I was cruising in Turkey lately with 170 and was often overtaken with people at 200+. Speed limits are just glorified toll boots made to extract revenue from people with powerful cars.
      - Tade0 4y ago
        In markets with significant EV adoption there's usually either section control on highways or a competent traffic police force. Also manufacturers are moving away from providing 200km/h+ capable cars. Volvo is pioneering this citing safety concerns.
  - kwhitefoot 4y ago
    Do you have a new EV? My 2015 Model S 70D has a nominal range of 330 km and as far as i can tell it does pretty close to that unless I am running at high speed (110 km/h or more) or doing a lot of hill climbing. So I'm pretty sure that a newer EV, especially a lighter one or one with a larger battery and lower power motor would have a longer range. 140 km/h and above is not a normal highway speed in any country except Germany and even there it is not really that common. I returned from the UK to Norway last week. It was about 26 hours of driving through France, Belgium, Netherlands, Germany, Denmark, the amount of time I spent at more than 130 was just a couple of hours.
abecedarius 4y ago
Sounds like a need for an offline map of charging stations. If I were Tesla I'd want to include one in the regular updates?
csa 4y ago
> Without internet he was unable to figure out whether he should continue, turn around, or wait out the accident. I think that this is an interesting corner case, but I don’t think the solution decision tree is that complicated: 1. Every Tesla has comes with an adapter that plugs into a regular outlet. It’s very slow (maybe 3-5 miles an hour charge), but it’s enough to recharge anywhere that has electricity in an emergency. This is slow and may require an extended stay at a hotel (or sleeping in your car), but we are talking about a super rare emergency situation. 2. I would default to not taking a long detour in general in an ev unless I knew where I was going to charge. That would be like taking a detour on a back road in an isolated area on a fraction of a tank of gas without knowing how far the next gas station is or whether it would be open — just not wise. 3. If he was near a charging station in the direction he was going on the main road, I would lean towards just waiting it out. Tesla’s use very little charge when not moving. 12-24 hours would be fine (if boring). 4. If he was not near a charging station in the direction he was going, then I would recommend turning around and finding the nearest charger or find a place you can charge on a regular outlet — drastic situations call for drastic solutions. I guess I can say that I feel sorry for EV owners who lack the ability to think logically and/or analytically, but these problems, while different than ICE problems, are not terribly difficult to figure out. I think that I have heard of one challenging charging scenario in the US that is specific to EVs… There is a wind corridor on some highway that spans from Texas to Colorado. Cars of any kind get reduced mileage by a lot if they are driving into heavy winds that are common on this road. Not a problem with ubiquitous gas stations, but I don’t think the charger network accommodated this wind factor as of last year, so people had to drive at unusually slow speeds in order to extend their range. That said, I heard that Tesla was building an extra charging station or two on this route to address this issue, and it wouldn’t surprise me if other charging station operators did so as well. It’s just a super weird and rare driving and charging situation that is/was easily solved.

pjc50 4y ago

> There are some parts of this planet where it it very hard to envision mass EV adoption. Perhaps, but how are they going to adapt to significantly lower CO2 emission? Through drastically increased prices? Or just accept the 4C warming and hope the fires are after your lifetime?

ThunderSizzle 4y ago

Your facts are inconvenient and will probably just be dismissed sadly. EVs need to win by being better without more risk, not by trying to ban people currently using ICEs.

sandworm101 4y ago
More inconvenient facts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Fort_McMurray_wildfire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Fort_McMurray_wildfire https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7E_OLgC4nV0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7E_OLgC4nV0 88,000 people in perhaps 50,000 vehicles all taking the ONE road out of town. Some kind companies setup fuel trucks by the roadside to top up tanks. Gas delivery can be scaled up and even made portable in an emergency. Had those 50,000 vehicles all been EVs, tens of thousands of people would have been stuck beside the road hoping the fire picked a different direction.
- epistasis 4y ago
  It seems like cars are the problem here though? If people want to live in remote areas and pollute a ton, that's just fine as long as they pay to clean up the mess they make for everyone else. Direct carbon capture from the air is about $500/ton right now, which is only about $5/gallon of gas.
  - sandworm101 4y ago
    >> If people want to live in remote areas and pollute a ton Well... if you want lumber, minerals, metals, petrochemicals and food, then you too will need people living "in remote areas".
    - epistasis 4y ago
      Seems fine as long as they pay to clean up their mess, which means that their costs will be higher which they pass on.
      - sandworm101 4y ago
        The next time I see a farmer I'll pass along that it is "fine" that he continue growing the food people eat. He will appreciate having permission so to do.
        epistasis 4y ago
        I don't think you understand what I was saying "fine" too. But people need to pay for the damage they inflict on the world. Nobody is so "special" or snowflake that they get exempted. Farmers are adults, they can be treated like any other adult in our society.
        osigurdson 4y ago
        It seems that we are redefining things such that the only way to cause "damage" to the world is via carbon emissions (humans are very good at focusing on one metric to the exclusion of all others). Is there any "damage" done in having greater numbers of the world's poor die of starvation since we've reduced agricultural output in our quest to reduce carbon emissions? Perhaps we can dabble in fertilizer reduction after we've exhausted carbon capture from coal fired electricity plants (particularly in China and the US who are the largest emitters and still use a lot of coal) or at least converted those to natural gas. Messing with agriculture, particularly right now with the current geopolitical situation is very stupid.
epistasis 4y ago
When gas cars were first around, people carried extra gas around with them. Eventually we built gas stations, but somehow cars still got a toehold even without those gas stations pre-existing. There are very very very few places without electricity in the world. Are there some places where emergency conditions make travel inconvenient or uncertain? Sure, but these rare situations are narrowing daily. If that was the only Tesla you saw that day, there's a good reason for it. Fortunately those sorts of rare areas have nearly zero population, and account for nearly zero of the miles we need to switch from gas to EVs, so if they stay gasoline powered for a few more years, it's not a big obstacle to overcome.
- sandworm101 4y ago
  >> There are very very very few places without electricity in the world. Today. Right now. This is happening. Not Africa or Antarctica. In Canada. In a national park during a busy long weekend. https://edmonton.ctvnews.ca/be-prepared-officials-warn-of-potential-jasper-power-outage-as-chetamon-wildfire-grows-1.6055539 https://edmonton.ctvnews.ca/be-prepared-officials-warn-of-po... " Should the situation worsen, Richard Ireland, Jasper's mayor, recommended residents and visitors to the park ensure their essential electric devices remain fully charged and that their vehicles have full tanks of gas — since gas stations rely on electricity. "We are already prepared to move to generated power for our own critical infrastructure, but that does not power lights in a residential home or your fridge or anything else," Ireland said. "So be prepared.""
  - epistasis 4y ago
    Yes that is a story, but what is its relevance to what I am writing?
    - osigurdson 4y ago
      Perhaps because you suggest that the areas OP is referring to have near zero population when clearly that is not the case.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

seanmcdirmid 4y ago

I've been in situations in an ICE where I've been diverted and had no clue where the next gas station would be (not really uncommon in Nevada or California). Heck, I've been on an actual interstate through Kansas in the middle of the night and...I had trouble finding an open gas station for our car (bad planning on my part, I thought 40 miles of range was surely enough to find the next one, I never saw gas stations close at night before!).

al_mandi 4y ago
Part of planning for very long road trips should be to carry a spare can of gas with you to account for incidents.
- seanmcdirmid 4y ago
  I never expected to run out of gas on an interstate. We aren't talking about a highway in the middle of nowhere Nevada, supposedly Kansas is populated with little towns everywhere (which seem to close their gas stations at night). And ya, when you are at some place like Crater Lake National Park, you don't really think too deeply about how the next gas station might be 100 miles out. If I was going into the Australian outback, preparations are necessary, but running out of gas due to poor planning or unexpected situations is at least as common as running out of battery due to similar poor planning (or unexpected situations).
  - katbyte 4y ago
    Running out of gas is an easy fix, go get a jerry can of petrol. What happens to an ev? Tow to the nearest charger?
    - seanmcdirmid 4y ago
      Mobile charging is a possibility: > Most gas-powered generators that your roadside assistance will come with provide 9.6 kilowatts and generate 240 volts. Inquire with your roadside assistance provider to know whether they offer a mobile charge. Often that not, they may be offering it. Ya, they are coming with basically with a diesel generator that outputs 240 volts...which should give you 20 or so miles in 30 minutes? Or towing (on a flatbed) to the nearest charger is an option if you can't bring power to the car.

ehnto 4y ago

Plugin series hybrids are becoming popular here in Australia where distances and use cases like that are common. Same approach that diesel electric trains use for similar reasons. EV drivetrain with an ICE generator. Efficiency and drivability of the EV drivetrain, with robust fueling options. You may rarely need the petrol generator in daily commuting, but then you head interstate and have all the current infrastructure to work with.

NegativeLatency 4y ago

> driving prized cattle from a show, some of which were 4h projects That was worse than I thought it was going to be.

sandworm101 4y ago
Ya. The local authorities did a very good job in preventing anyone from taking pictures. I'm not for censorship, but those images do not need to be public knowledge imho.

YeBanKo 4y ago

What exactly did he need internet for?

sandworm101 4y ago
To find the nearest charging station along the detour route. He was already down below 1/2 charge, meaning he couldn't go back the way he came.
- YeBanKo 4y ago
  I am surprised that that don't have an offline version for the maps. The location of the charge station does not change that often, operational status might, but few hours stale data should still be sufficient to navigate.

anon291 4y ago

Europeans don't understand how sparse and unpopulated the United States is . Even if they visit they visit the densely populated areas not realizing that most Americans regularly drive across areas where you may not see anyone for miles around. It's not that uncommon an occurrence. Most Americans will do something like this a few times a year. Many do it daily... Canadians too

alisonatwork 4y ago
To be fair, I'd wager that the vast majority of Americans live, work and travel within 100km of a gas station at all times. That number could be pushed even higher if you include distance from any ordinary electrical power outlet that could theoretically be used to charge an EV. It's true that parts of the Canada and the US are very sparsely populated, but EV adoption could happen (and is happening) across much of the region anyway because realistically it's still only a few people who regularly spend their lives hours away from any kind of service whatsoever.
- Gibbon1 4y ago
  Friend of mine lives in a small town. There is a gas station. The guy that runs it is an asshole and it's expensive either way. The cheap gas station is 75 miles away in town with the grocery and big box stores. When you consider the whole cycle of gas up in town. Drive home, hope you have enough gas next week to get back to town. An EV would be less hassle and stress.
  - jakzurr 4y ago
    Good point. EV can be more convenient, and plug-in hybrid gives you a choice you might not have had, otherwise.
simongray 4y ago
> most Americans regularly drive across areas where you may not see anyone for miles around 83% of Americans live in urban areas. Why would they "regularly drive across areas where [they] may not see anyone for miles around"...? Are you sure you're not just extrapolating from your own experience?

shusson 4y ago

> There are some parts of this planet where it it very hard to envision mass EV adoption. A lot of EV's are already at 500km range. Within this decade we should see 1000km range. Add some charging infrastructure and we are gold. Just look at the chargers Tesla has built in California (and there is still a lot of potential to improve).

ReptileMan 4y ago
No EV has 500 km range when you drive it in real world conditions. If you drive it with normal highway speed - 140-160 km/h you can barely get 250.
- redox99 4y ago
  In real world conditions the highest range Model S can do 320 miles (515km) [1] Also 140-160 km/h aren't normal highway speed. They are in fact illegal in almost all countries. [1] https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a36302930/tesla-model-s-long-range-plus-highway-range-testing/ https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a36302930/tesla-model-s-lo...
  - ReptileMan 4y ago
    Who cares if they are legal if everyone drives at them. I was cruising in Turkey lately with 170 and was often overtaken with people at 200+. Speed limits are just glorified toll boots made to extract revenue from people with powerful cars.
    - Tade0 4y ago
      In markets with significant EV adoption there's usually either section control on highways or a competent traffic police force. Also manufacturers are moving away from providing 200km/h+ capable cars. Volvo is pioneering this citing safety concerns.
- kwhitefoot 4y ago
  Do you have a new EV? My 2015 Model S 70D has a nominal range of 330 km and as far as i can tell it does pretty close to that unless I am running at high speed (110 km/h or more) or doing a lot of hill climbing. So I'm pretty sure that a newer EV, especially a lighter one or one with a larger battery and lower power motor would have a longer range. 140 km/h and above is not a normal highway speed in any country except Germany and even there it is not really that common. I returned from the UK to Norway last week. It was about 26 hours of driving through France, Belgium, Netherlands, Germany, Denmark, the amount of time I spent at more than 130 was just a couple of hours.

abecedarius 4y ago

Sounds like a need for an offline map of charging stations. If I were Tesla I'd want to include one in the regular updates?

csa 4y ago

> Without internet he was unable to figure out whether he should continue, turn around, or wait out the accident. I think that this is an interesting corner case, but I don’t think the solution decision tree is that complicated: 1. Every Tesla has comes with an adapter that plugs into a regular outlet. It’s very slow (maybe 3-5 miles an hour charge), but it’s enough to recharge anywhere that has electricity in an emergency. This is slow and may require an extended stay at a hotel (or sleeping in your car), but we are talking about a super rare emergency situation. 2. I would default to not taking a long detour in general in an ev unless I knew where I was going to charge. That would be like taking a detour on a back road in an isolated area on a fraction of a tank of gas without knowing how far the next gas station is or whether it would be open — just not wise. 3. If he was near a charging station in the direction he was going on the main road, I would lean towards just waiting it out. Tesla’s use very little charge when not moving. 12-24 hours would be fine (if boring). 4. If he was not near a charging station in the direction he was going, then I would recommend turning around and finding the nearest charger or find a place you can charge on a regular outlet — drastic situations call for drastic solutions. I guess I can say that I feel sorry for EV owners who lack the ability to think logically and/or analytically, but these problems, while different than ICE problems, are not terribly difficult to figure out. I think that I have heard of one challenging charging scenario in the US that is specific to EVs… There is a wind corridor on some highway that spans from Texas to Colorado. Cars of any kind get reduced mileage by a lot if they are driving into heavy winds that are common on this road. Not a problem with ubiquitous gas stations, but I don’t think the charger network accommodated this wind factor as of last year, so people had to drive at unusually slow speeds in order to extend their range. That said, I heard that Tesla was building an extra charging station or two on this route to address this issue, and it wouldn’t surprise me if other charging station operators did so as well. It’s just a super weird and rare driving and charging situation that is/was easily solved.