19 ms·

Thunderbolt, Displayport and Docks

371 points by Hackbraten 4y ago

bacan 4y ago
USB-C is a mess. Sometimes everything works as intended, but most of the time it doesn’t. Sometimes power wont work, sometimes its the display, other times the USB. Only after replugging a few times will it work. Not to mention the security issues of ThunderClap
burlesona 4y ago
Ok I knew the situation was confusing but after reading this I am dumbfounded. It seems so much strictly worse than the old world of having different cables with different connectors - yes you had to have a lot of different cables but you couldn’t get it wrong. Now we have all the same complexity and you can’t tell what’s what by just looking at the connector.
- cube2222 4y ago
  In contrast, I prefer the current world. Usually, when I unexpectedly need some cable for some device (and i.e. have to borrow it) it's for charging. And so far every time the cable + charger worked for what I needed to charge. Data- and protocol-related stuff is more complex indeed, but those I can usually research and check the specs of before ordering, so it's really a non-issue. As this article describes, you can also just look for everything Thunderbolt 4 compatible, as it's a standard on top of the USB 4 standard that's just an aggregated specification of "this stuff works" for most of the important extensions.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- alexvoda 4y ago
  Add to this complexity the fact that AMD 6000+ supports USB4. And USB4 is sorta compatible with Thunderbolt 3 and 4, though it is mandatory compatible with DP but no longer compatible with HDMI. Also add USB4 v2 to the mix. It gets really complex.
  - paulmd 4y ago
    > it is mandatory compatible with DP but no longer compatible with HDMI. Just FYI, not sure if you’re intending to imply this but a lot of people get it wrong regardless and it’s worth saying: usb-c/thunderbolt was NEVER compatible with HDMI. DP++ (the hdmi mode for DisplayPort connectors) is and has always been an optional extension, it’s just so widely supported on full-size DP ports that people don’t even realize it. And it’s NOT included in most embedded implementations of DP - like the usb-c alt mode. DP++ involves using a different voltage, and it would be super complex to do the voltage change in situations like that across a USB link... you'd probably have to have a voltage converter for the DP pairs to run at HDMI voltages. Anyway, all usb-c to hdmi cables are active cables. The adapters for hdmi 1.4 are dirt cheap and they’re so small they fit inside the plug, but, they’re active converters and they can have all kinds of weird behavior. Same for docks, the hdmi coming off your thunderbolt dock is an active converter chip and I’ve personally experienced hdmi-specific glitches on a Dell thunderbolt dock that I think were attributable to this.
    - kitsunesoba 4y ago
      This lines up with my experience of DisplayPort over TB and USB being considerably less of a pain than HDMI over TB and USB, and compounds with my experience of HDMI generally being more of a pain than DisplayPort. Sometimes I wish HDMI would just go away, or for HDMI-only devices (mainly TVs) to add a DisplayPort just so I wouldn’t have to deal with HDMI.
- izacus 4y ago
  And now if you "get it wrong" you still mostly get a functional experience at slower speed or resolution. Which is still a massive massive improvement over finding out that you can't plug in a device because you lack the exact same cable or needs. Nowadays this only happens at the edge of capabilities, not for basic functionality. Good riddance. I don't want to lug 10 cables with me instead of a single high end USB-C.
  - quest88 4y ago
    I disagree. It's harder to debug why the peripheral is not 100% functional. Moreso for those non-technical folks.
    - vladvasiliu 4y ago
      This. And I think there's also the software that's involved in all this. At work, I have an HP laptop with Thunderbolt 4, DP alt-mode, etc. I use an external screen and kb/mouse, so I have an HP USB-C G5 dock. It has a USB-C connector, only supports up to USB 3, but that's fine. It supports DP 1.4 and HDMI 2.0. Its cable is fixed, so I'd expect it to be "up to standard". Also, HP Dock, HP laptop, Windows 11 as recommended by HP, you'd expect all this to just work, right? Wrong! If I want 4k@60Hz on the monitor, I have to do a stupid dance of plugging the monitor on HDMI in addition to DP (doesn't work if DP isn't plugged in), unplug de DP, replug the DP, unplug the HDMI. It then works as expected. Colors are weird on HDMI (doesn't do 4:4:4 coding for some reason) so I insist on a DP connection. Once this setup gets going, it will usually survive a sleep / wake cycle (if the PC wakes up, but that's a different story). However, there's a pretty good chance the image will be partially messed up: most often crazy colors and moving lines, sometimes the image will be OK, only somewhat misaligned (think old LCDs with VGA connectors before "auto-adjusting" them) and the monitor will complain of frequency mismatch or something. If I switch inputs on the monitor, it will come back OK. It will not survive a reboot (have to do the dance again). The BIOS has a special "use high definition" entry, that warns against reducing the USB bandwidth. Didn't make a difference. At home, I have an HP desktop with Thunderbolt 3, DP out, etc. I have a USB-C monitor which works fine up until the Windows login screen when it goes blank (no signal). Windows install worked fine. It works if I force the resolution to less than 4k@60Hz. I only got to see the Windows desktop once with this. Didn't survive a reboot and never worked again. None of this happens with Linux/X11, everything works as expected on the same hardware. I fancy myself fairly technical, but I have to admit I have no idea what's going on. Not even where to start looking for issues. I've tried updating the BIOS/firmware across all devices, no luck.
- Latty 4y ago
  I disagree. I remember the hell of every phone having a different charging cable and having to ask around hoping someone had the same brand as you. Sure, it might be a bit of a pain that you can find a cable/charger that won't support the full charging speed of your device, but at least you can still charge it slower. If they'd changed the connector, you'd throw away your old cables and buy new ones, so just do that every time for the new spec if you really want.
- selfmodruntime 4y ago
  I disagree. USB-C is common for what, 3 years now? Issues like these are growing pains.
  - jbverschoor 4y ago
    Or just pains that will grow in the coming years
  - paulmd 4y ago
    Usb-c was specified a decade ago and thunderbolt has been around for a long ass time too. I could have bought "growing pains" in 2016-2017, it’s just a flaky standard at this point.
    - selfmodruntime 4y ago
      I agree that the standard is too loose.
- makeitdouble 4y ago
  That’s an oversimplification of the old world. We had different connectors that would or would not work depending on your specific application. Some connectors would only have a smaller set of pins for restricted use cases (charging only, sound only etc.) than the full standard, you still had the quality and ratings issue (think ethernet cables), some companies would still recycle connectors used in other contexts for their specific purpose (a sheer round connector is one of those: there must be hundreds or proprietary cables with a round connector). And of course you’d have adaptors to make a connector work in an equivalent setup. Sure more shapes would make any of these issues limited to a specific shape, but there was still plenty of room to get it wrong. All in all I think USB C is still a step forward.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
    > We had different connectors that would or would not work depending on your specific application. Some connectors would only have a smaller set of pins for restricted use cases (charging only, sound only etc.) than the full standard, you still had the quality and ratings issue (think ethernet cables), some companies would still recycle connectors used in other contexts for their specific purpose (a sheer round connector is one of those: there must be hundreds or proprietary cables with a round connector). Er, but isn't that exactly the problem with USB now? Not all USB ports and all USB cables are interchangeable, some devices use certain pins for restricted use cases (charging only, sound only), cables and devices have painfully varying quality (https://www.pcmag.com/news/poorly-designed-usb-c-cable-kills-google-engineers-laptop https://www.pcmag.com/news/poorly-designed-usb-c-cable-kills... , https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2015/11/google-engineer-leaves-scathing-reviews-of-dodgy-usb-type-c-cables-on-amazon/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2015/11/google-engineer-leav...), and companies reuse the one connector without actually being fully compatible (Nintendo, I'm looking at you).
    - makeitdouble 4y ago
      It totally is. I even have a Xiamo robot toy that uses the USB-C shape connector over a completely proprietary connection (non of the voltage or protocol match) The difference is it's one less issue to deal with: we don't have to fret about the connector shape anymore. There's also a fighting chance to have "all around" cables that match 90% of what you expect to be using it for.
- philistine 4y ago
  Intel and Apple to the rescue. If you focus on Thunderbolt ports, cables and docks, everything is simple to understand.
- altairprime 4y ago
  On Zyxel 16.8 rackmount modem enclosures, the barrel power plug that went into each modem blade was hot on the outside barrel rather than on the inside like every other sensible power connector using barrel plugs. So you would destroy a blade every couple weeks when an unused or unplugged power connector barrel would touch the modem blade and destroy the modem through its circuitry’s apparently-unprotected ground. We‘ve been having connector issues for as long as we’ve had connectors.
- Gigachad 4y ago
  For the average person, none of it matters. Every single one of the cables does charging, most users charge their phone overnight so everything works well enough. Some users will have a thunderbolt cable that came with their monitor that they will leave plugged in and is identifiable by being thick and stiff.
Theodores 4y ago
I was hoping to find out if I can use a TB4 hub to connect two computers for super fast networking. Currently I have a cable between two computers, when I plug it in I get the ridiculous fast speeds and it configures the point to point networking in such a way it falls back to wifi if the cable is not present. I would like to do this with a TB4 hub in the middle. I don't want to connect a GPU (yet) but I do want the speed of networking with no latency that TB4 networking does. I think it is faster than NVMe SSDs. Does anyone have a TB4 hub and two linux boxes and TB4 cables to see what happens if you connect two computers via a TB4 hub - do you get the networking automatically?
- justsomehnguy 4y ago
  > I think it is faster than NVMe SSDs NVMe is sitting directly on PCI-E bus, which is connected directly to the CPU. The only thing what is faster than that is RAM.
  - jbverschoor 4y ago
    I thought Thunderbolt was also directly on the pci bus which is also a reason I don’t want too many tb devices. I prefer not to have my motherboard fried
  - hatware 4y ago
    I think they are talking about bandwidth, not latency. Thunderbolt should give 40gbps, which is a ton of bandwidth.
- formerly_proven 4y ago
  > Does anyone have a TB4 hub and two linux boxes and TB4 cables to see what happens if you connect two computers via a TB4 hub - do you get the networking automatically? What happens if you plug two TB4 ports from the same device into the hub?
  - Theodores 4y ago
    I don't fancy spotting $300 to find out. Right now I have a mere USB C hub that does not do power delivery. I need a dock and they cost money I can spend on other things. However, if I knew of a dock that worked then I would get one, price permitting.
politician 4y ago
This is the sort of post that I find myself wanting to click a button and have it indexed into my personal information system, so that I can find it later without hoping that it doesn’t disappear from the Internet or fall off search indices before I need it. In lieu of this mythical system, this post on HN.
- ajvs 4y ago
  archive.org?
- ghaff 4y ago
  Use an online tagging service? I use pinboard.in all the time. A lot of people seem to like raindrop which is newer and more maintained.
- worble 4y ago
  Joplin has a great addon that can clip entire pages into a note (with various options such as convert to md or just plain html). Works great for articles but I imagine anything really JS heavy might fall over, although luckily I've never really had any problems with it myself.
- darkteflon 4y ago
  Print to PDF -> put it in a “knowledge base” folder in your home dir -> find it (or anything else) later using full-text search with, e.g. Houdahspot. Simple and durable. I store thousands of articles this way going back years. Search-first interfaces are great.
- Terretta 4y ago
  Add the Markdownload Markdown Web Clipper extension to your browser. Exists for Chrome, Edge, Firefox, as well as Safari on MacOS and iOS. Organize using whatever Markdown tool you like, from folders and OS search to Obsidian.md.
larusso 4y ago
> TB1/2/3 ports can be daisychained with up to 6 devices in the chain. Hubs (i.e. a split in the connection) are not supported until TB4. The last device in the chain can be a non-TB DP display as well. This didn’t work with the Apple Thunderbolt Display. I tried this a few times and got this only to work with a TB Hub in the middle. And to add to: > Thunderbolt 4 seems to be essentially just USB4 with all optional items implemented (but USB4 is more like TB3 than USB3...). TB4 is as described but adds restriction to min/max speeds. This is more for the to be connected devices than the computer. It is a form of seal that it will work with the highest possible speed. Otherwise it could just be USB-4 or TB3.
rssoconnor 4y ago
For a person satisfied with a single monitor, I figure it makes sense to get a monitor that is itself a dock. At the moment I'm considering the Dell UltraSharp 32 4K USB-C Hub Monitor - U3223QE. I know it is only a USB-C hub, but I'd like to be able to plug my older laptops into it on occasion, so I need something with a least an HDMI input and preferably also a DisplayPort input. I don't know anything about monitor-hubs so if people have comments or recommendations, please let me know.
- daviddever23box 4y ago
  Looks great! I am using a 350-nit Philips Brilliance 329P9H (manufactured by AOC), and, frankly, the size makes a huge difference contra the need for multiple panels. It works well with Windows and macOS devices. One does not need Thunderbolt on a device like this; anything latency-sensitive or bandwidth-intensive should be connected directly as is. USB-C is fine.
  - vladvasiliu 4y ago
    I'd like having a high-speed (10Gb) network port on the monitor, all connected through the single cable. Sure, I think some of the latest USB standards should be able to support that while at the same time providing 4K@60Hz. But I'd also like the monitor to support higher resolutions, too.
    - rssoconnor 4y ago
      Good observation. PC Magazine says the ethernet port of this Dell monitor I'm considering is 1000Mb/s. I can probably live with that, though I'd certainly prefer a monitor-hub with a 10 Gb port if I can find one (that still has DP and HDMI inputs).
      - daviddever23box 4y ago
        Pretty unlikely–nor would I trust the connection to fully saturate the 10GbE interface, as, on a monitor, the most important connection is the video one.
BitwiseFool 4y ago
'One port to rule them all' was a mistake. Instead of being convenient, USB C has become a confusing ordeal of varying capabilities and quality control. It is like we've gone back to having many different types of connectors, but it is even worse because they share the same form factor. For any of the devices that use USB C to charge, I only use the cable that came with it when I purchased it. While I complain, I would also like to mention the USB forum's insane naming strategy and non-obvious labeling system. Remember when USB 3 was easily identifiable because of the blue plastic in the port?
- cyborgx7 4y ago
  I disagree. What we have now is so much better than what we used to have. Better labeling would be a nice improvement, but I'll still take the current state of things over what we used to have.
  - bombcar 4y ago
    What we have works better “in general”. But when it fails in specific cases it’s a real pain to diagnose. I immediately order a thunder bolt cable direct from apple the moment I smell any issues, which often fixes it.
    - AdamN 4y ago
      Seems like it's really easy to diagnose - problem with comms over a cable? 1/ is it seated correctly, 2/ are there any obvious defects, 3/ are the specs of the cable and the ports aligned? Having incompatible ports means 3/ disappears but since many cables support multiple specs, it's nice to often have a win when connecting two devices over a cable rather than simply being blocked because the connector isn't compatible physically.
      - happyopossum 4y ago
        > 3/ are the specs of the cable and the ports aligned? This is basically impossible to diagnose as ports and cables are not marked with their supported specs.
ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
This has been a big pain, for me. The only docks that have worked for me, have been the CalDigit TSX docks, which I have used for a long time. The TS4 is out of stock on the CalDigit site, and I'm never using Amazon again, for anything over about $100. I'll get it, eventually. I have the latest 14-inch MBP (M1Max). The biggest issues that I encounter are: 1) External keyboard wake up/recognized. If I use a dock, the keyboard is often not recognized. I found that I need to plug directly into the Mac. Otherwise, it sometimes won't wake the computer, or the computer sometimes "forgets" the keyboard. 2) Monitor Handling. I use a 49" LG Ultrawide (5120 X 1440). I used to have it split into two monitors (3840 X 1440, 1680 X 1440), but now use it as a single, ultrwawide, after Apple started natively supporting that resolution. I found that many docks (even "Thunderbolt" ones) and adapters, refused to allow me to select the ultrawide size. Also, the monitor would often fail to be recognized, after the computer wakes, and I would have to reach under, and unplug/replug, to get it recognized. I have the monitor plugged directly into one of the TB ports, with a TB-to-DP cable, and it works great. From what I understand, the new CalDigit should fix these issues.
- rektide 4y ago
  The note in this article that for whatever reason Mac's dont support the MST capabilities from DisplayPort 1.2 (january 2013) is I think the primary reason folks hate USB-c. Because the obvious great thing docks definitely absolutely should do doesnt work for Apple systems.
  - ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
    That makes sense. I really think they included the HDMI, just for projectors. It’s worthless, as a daily monitor port (to me).
    - usrusr 4y ago
      I consider that a given. In my mind I call HDMI "the new VGA port"
- jhickok 4y ago
tiffanyh 4y ago
Does anyone know of a good (single) comparison chart with: - power wattage - data speeds - capabilities (eg Display Port) I’ve found a few below but they aren’t complete. [0] https://cdn-learn.adafruit.com/assets/assets/000/085/324/medium800/components_adafruit_USB_C_graphic_outlines.png?1575491911 https://cdn-learn.adafruit.com/assets/assets/000/085/324/med... [1] https://www.akitio.com/images/support/faq/thunderbolt3-vs-usb-c.jpg https://www.akitio.com/images/support/faq/thunderbolt3-vs-us... [2] https://i.redd.it/1n2tk9cd9kj21.png https://i.redd.it/1n2tk9cd9kj21.png [3] https://www.thunderbolttechnology.net/sites/default/files/thunderbolt4-comparison-chart.jpg https://www.thunderbolttechnology.net/sites/default/files/th...
- syntheticcdo 4y ago
  Regarding cables, I just exclusively use 0.8m Thunderbolt 4 100 W cables. If something isn't working, for sure it is the device on one end of the cable and not the cable itself.
artificialLimbs 4y ago
M1 MPB 14", 2 external monitors: I would pay quite a bit of money if Apple would make a dock that I could plug into and have my apps move back into the position they were in (including correct monitor) when I unplugged the cable. Bonus points if windows would automatically arrange themselves back when I unplug and work on laptop only, but this is probably a Mac OS thing more than a dock thing, right? Currently it's just a crapshoot as to where my apps will be. Will they be on the right monitor? Will the monitors have magically juxtaposed? Will everything be only on the laptop screen? Who knows!? This is a productivity destroyer for me, multiple times per day. Yes, I wait until both screens have powered on. And then some extra time... and it doesn't matter at all.
- dmitriid 4y ago
  > if Apple would make a dock that I could plug into and have my apps move back into the position they were in (including correct monitor) when I unplugged the cable. Isn't that handled by software? That Apple hasn't been able to provide for ages despite originally bosting to have the best monitor support, and now releasing "the best" external display with Studio Display? > Currently it's just a crapshoot as to where my apps will be. Will they be on the right monitor? Will the monitors have magically juxtaposed? Will everything be only on the laptop screen? Who knows!? Yup. It's been a pain for me since forever.
- ozzydave 4y ago
  This is the monitors fault though right? Because the manufacturer flashes them with the exact same identifier, so the laptop has no way to tell them apart. There was a blog post about it here recently. https://notes.alinpanaitiu.com/Weird%20monitor%20bugs https://notes.alinpanaitiu.com/Weird%20monitor%20bugs
- jcynix 4y ago
  You might want to try out "window tidy" which allows to define arrangements of windows: https://www.lightpillar.com/window-tidy.html https://www.lightpillar.com/window-tidy.html
rrgok 4y ago
I'm starting to think that it is all purposefully designed to confuse the consumer. There is no reason, absolutely no reason at all, that the same cable/port can sometime transport only video, sometime only audio, sometime only raw data, sometime only power and sometime all of them put together or some combination of them. We can connect to a server to other side of the world or watch movie from youtube with the same cable (Ethernet, heck with the same connection) while writing a comment in HN, but somehow connecting a monitor and usb keyboard needs N different type of cables/port.
- cowtools 4y ago
  It's not just about the cable, it's about the controller chip on either side of the cable, and the bandwidth (pcie, etc.) attached to the controller. You can't make a standard that always does everything while being afforable enough to be used in low-cost, low-margin devices
  - colordrops 4y ago
    Yeah you can, enforce labeling and colors, maybe even an extra nub that only fits certain ports if capabilities aren't needed.
- notacoward 4y ago
  > There is no reason, absolutely no reason at all There is a reason: cost. A lower-capability cable is cheaper to make, and people don't want to pay more when the lower capability (often just power) is all they need. If every cable had to be made to the absolute highest spec, people would complain about that too. There are also economies of scale etc. from using the same connector. Yes, the situation is bad. Worse than it needs to be. Better branding and labeling and OS diagnostics would all help. But "absolutely no reason" is still either naive or exaggeration.
notacoward 4y ago
> It is like we've gone back to having many different types of connectors Not quite. Before, if the cable provided by your device manufacturer failed or was lost, you had practically no chance to replace it other than buying another overpriced cable from the original manufacturer. Keeping a backup around for every single device was often infeasible. Now you have a very good chance of finding an adequate replacement, even of a reasonably priced exact replacement if you work at it. "But you can fry your Nintendo Switch now!" Well, yeah, but built-in signaling and negotiation has kept such cases rare enough to make the news, and it wasn't impossible before. Maybe not with the smaller devices using unique connectors, but back then it was common to reduce the number of adapters by carrying a "universal" one and a bag of tips. Set the voltage wrong and BZZZT fried laptop. So it's complex in different ways but I agree with those who say that thinking it's worse requires some serious rose-colored glasses (or not having been an adult during that time). I'll take being able to charge nearly a dozen different devices, from earbuds to laptops, with the same one charger and cables, even if that cable doesn't provide absolutely full functionality for every combination. Carrying around a bunch of separate connectors and (usually built in) cables really sucked. In practical terms, it left people stranded without any power option, or with an actually dead device, even more often.
cesarvarela 4y ago
My 3 rules: 1. buy everything thunderbolt 4 certified 2. connect monitors using tb -> dp cables 3. avoid Linux and Windows (vms are ok) Everything works as it should and using only one cable I’m connecting my MacBook to 2 monitors, a webcam, a screen capture card, a microphone, a stream deck, and it even charges the battery. Break one of the rules and be ready for a world of pain.
- zmmmmm 4y ago
  > I’m connecting my MacBook to 2 monitors Did you really find a solution where you plug in one cable and you natively get two independent screens out of your MacBook? To my great frustration I have found my M1 Pro can only extend to one monitor, not two. Every solution out there either ends up with "mirrored" displays (useless) or requires to virtualise the link via DisplayLink which I really don't like. Apparently it's a fundamental issue with limitations of Apple's implementation.
  - cesarvarela 4y ago
    Yes, mine is an m1 pro too. The error you have is that it doesn't support MST (daisy chaining monitors) but if I use separate thunderbolt -> display port cables for each monitor it works.
  - jluh 4y ago
    I have 2x 27", 1440p monitors connected to my M1 Pro. I have this dock: https://amazon.com/dp/B08FF6WYZH https://amazon.com/dp/B08FF6WYZH, and both monitors are connected to the dock though HDMI.
- redditor98654 4y ago
  I am using a Lenovo Thinkpad running Ubuntu 22.04 with a single cable plugged to an HP thunderbolt 3 120W dock which then connected to three monitors all running at 2K 60HZ plus a host of other peripherals. The Intel Mac I had previously wasn’t able to do this but thankfully my company allows Linux laptops. So the recommendation to just avoid Linux is unfair IMO.
banana_giraffe 4y ago
I have an ultrawide monitor on such a dock. I have three laptops (work, personal, so's laptop). It's been a never ending quest to figure this mess out. I've had one cable fail, and one dock fail. I now own three thunderbolt cables, and two working docks, and a dead one. Personal laptop has 3 USB-C ports, only one of which is Thunderbolt. If I forget and use the more conveniently placed USB-C port, the resolution is limited. If I neglect to connect it to power first, it won't reliably connect to the dock. Work laptop will connect, but will always decide I want 1080P, I have to manually adjust the resolution each time. I have noticed if the monitor is set to 120 HZ, the laptop refuses to acknowledge it exists. 240 or 60 HZ works. SO's laptop was quite the quest. It works now, but originally it refused to activate the display. Other ports on the dock worked, the display itself worked with a single DisplayPort -> Thunderbolt cable. The display was listed in the graphics card driver software when connected via the dock, it just refused to allow me to enable it. Things would work without a display driver, or a really old version of the driver. Various driver removal utilities didn't help. I flattened the laptop and installed the latest drivers. Things work for now. I've come away from this mess with a setup that mostly works, but surely doesn't feel stable. And if it stops working, I have basically no clue as to why. Could be a failed part, could be a driver issue, nothing really gives me any feedback as to why it's not working.
- fnordpiglet 4y ago
  I for one miss the world of VESA and RS232. Those were the days!
  - idealmedtech 4y ago
    You mean VGA? Most every monitor these days still has VESA mounting holes.
    - antod 4y ago
      Assuming you weren't trolling, VESA has had many more standards than just the mounting brackets. eg Display Port is one of theirs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_Electronics_Standards_Association https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_Electronics_Standards_As...
nfriedly 4y ago
I prefer DisplayPort over HDMI, and find it rather annoying how many USB-C hubs only have HDMI options - especially when it means extra circuitry to convert from DP to HDMI.
rizzaxc 4y ago
has anyone tried their M1 Pro with 2 4K monitors, one at 120/ 144 and the other at 60 using 1 cable? I think it's theoretically possible with compression but I'm afraid of compatibility issues
- antod 4y ago
  I've never been able to get a Mac (currently using an M1 Pro) to get multiple monitors to share a physical port - eg DP daisy chaining or 2 monitors on a TB3 dock. It might be able to do it with a TB4 dock though?
- paulmd 4y ago
  TB3/USB4 tops out at a pair of 4K60 displays. I don't think even DSC can get you a 50-70% bandwidth increase regardless of whether M1 Pro/Max support them.
brian_herman 4y ago
The styles of this site are amazing black and white.
francisofascii 4y ago
Is this complexity the reason why docks are so pricy? I still don't get why docks cost more than the actual monitors I am trying to connect to.
ledgerdev 4y ago
Guess what, my Lenovo TB4 dock isn't compatible with lenovo TB3 laptops.. go figure, better yet just buy a framework!
Cu3PO42 4y ago
> TB1/2/3 are only implemented by Intel chips, and TB1/2 is used almost exclusively by Apple. TB4/USB4 can be implemented by other chip makers too, but this has not happened yet I believe. Apple has made USB4 controllers for their M1/M2 devices. Though it isn't fully clear to me if the author is aware and meant "chipmakers other than Intel and Apple".
frozencell 4y ago
What are the options to connect a second external screen to a M1 air laptop?
- Gigachad 4y ago
  Nothing officially supported. The GPU on the M1 isn't capable of it. I did see there was some hack to do it with some serious downsides though.
rowanG077 4y ago
Simply don't cheap out in cables. Buy a few Thunderbolt 3/USB 4 cables and sleep soundly. This is what I did and I have had literally 0 problems since. Connecting eGPU? No problem? Charging laptop? Sure thing. Connect dock with external monitors? Coming right up. Sure if you skimp out and buy the unmarked cheapest cable you will have problems.
WatchDog 4y ago
Great article, so much complexity and it doesn't even really cover USB power delivery and proprietary extensions like Quick Charge[0]. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quick_Charge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quick_Charge
nuker 4y ago
(ahem) So will TB4 or USB4 hosts support my new WD P50 2TB SSD drive, which is USB3.2 gen 2x2 (20Gbps)?
thadk 4y ago
> USB4 10 Gbps (gen 2) uses 64b/66b = 9.697 Gbps > USB4 20 Gbps (gen 3) uses 128b/132b = 19.39 Gbps > Thunderbolt 3 10.3125Gbps uses 64b/66b = 10Gbps > Thunderbolt 3 20.625Gbps uses 64b/66b = 20Gbps Hah, seems Apple doesn't want to get sued again for bit distinctions so they're making sure the sticker unit matches the true rate with the standard they control more of. It's a bit like the decimal/binary distinction: https://blog.codinghorror.com/gigabyte-decimal-vs-binary/ https://blog.codinghorror.com/gigabyte-decimal-vs-binary/
swah 4y ago
Just to counter the usual tone of threads like this, I'll say that I'm super happy having finally jumped the ship and bought an used "real dock" (ie not another hub from Aliexpress) from Dell - one single cable and I get the Macbook charging, wired ethernet, my usb peripherals and 4k 60hz display. But then I'm from the time of parallel-port printers and dial-up internet, so maybe my bar is lower...

371 points by Hackbraten 4y ago

USB-C is a mess. Sometimes everything works as intended, but most of the time it doesn’t. Sometimes power wont work, sometimes its the display, other times the USB. Only after replugging a few times will it work. Not to mention the security issues of ThunderClap

burlesona 4y ago

Ok I knew the situation was confusing but after reading this I am dumbfounded. It seems so much strictly worse than the old world of having different cables with different connectors - yes you had to have a lot of different cables but you couldn’t get it wrong. Now we have all the same complexity and you can’t tell what’s what by just looking at the connector.

cube2222 4y ago
In contrast, I prefer the current world. Usually, when I unexpectedly need some cable for some device (and i.e. have to borrow it) it's for charging. And so far every time the cable + charger worked for what I needed to charge. Data- and protocol-related stuff is more complex indeed, but those I can usually research and check the specs of before ordering, so it's really a non-issue. As this article describes, you can also just look for everything Thunderbolt 4 compatible, as it's a standard on top of the USB 4 standard that's just an aggregated specification of "this stuff works" for most of the important extensions.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
alexvoda 4y ago
Add to this complexity the fact that AMD 6000+ supports USB4. And USB4 is sorta compatible with Thunderbolt 3 and 4, though it is mandatory compatible with DP but no longer compatible with HDMI. Also add USB4 v2 to the mix. It gets really complex.
- paulmd 4y ago
  > it is mandatory compatible with DP but no longer compatible with HDMI. Just FYI, not sure if you’re intending to imply this but a lot of people get it wrong regardless and it’s worth saying: usb-c/thunderbolt was NEVER compatible with HDMI. DP++ (the hdmi mode for DisplayPort connectors) is and has always been an optional extension, it’s just so widely supported on full-size DP ports that people don’t even realize it. And it’s NOT included in most embedded implementations of DP - like the usb-c alt mode. DP++ involves using a different voltage, and it would be super complex to do the voltage change in situations like that across a USB link... you'd probably have to have a voltage converter for the DP pairs to run at HDMI voltages. Anyway, all usb-c to hdmi cables are active cables. The adapters for hdmi 1.4 are dirt cheap and they’re so small they fit inside the plug, but, they’re active converters and they can have all kinds of weird behavior. Same for docks, the hdmi coming off your thunderbolt dock is an active converter chip and I’ve personally experienced hdmi-specific glitches on a Dell thunderbolt dock that I think were attributable to this.
  - kitsunesoba 4y ago
    This lines up with my experience of DisplayPort over TB and USB being considerably less of a pain than HDMI over TB and USB, and compounds with my experience of HDMI generally being more of a pain than DisplayPort. Sometimes I wish HDMI would just go away, or for HDMI-only devices (mainly TVs) to add a DisplayPort just so I wouldn’t have to deal with HDMI.
izacus 4y ago
And now if you "get it wrong" you still mostly get a functional experience at slower speed or resolution. Which is still a massive massive improvement over finding out that you can't plug in a device because you lack the exact same cable or needs. Nowadays this only happens at the edge of capabilities, not for basic functionality. Good riddance. I don't want to lug 10 cables with me instead of a single high end USB-C.
- quest88 4y ago
  I disagree. It's harder to debug why the peripheral is not 100% functional. Moreso for those non-technical folks.
  - vladvasiliu 4y ago
    This. And I think there's also the software that's involved in all this. At work, I have an HP laptop with Thunderbolt 4, DP alt-mode, etc. I use an external screen and kb/mouse, so I have an HP USB-C G5 dock. It has a USB-C connector, only supports up to USB 3, but that's fine. It supports DP 1.4 and HDMI 2.0. Its cable is fixed, so I'd expect it to be "up to standard". Also, HP Dock, HP laptop, Windows 11 as recommended by HP, you'd expect all this to just work, right? Wrong! If I want 4k@60Hz on the monitor, I have to do a stupid dance of plugging the monitor on HDMI in addition to DP (doesn't work if DP isn't plugged in), unplug de DP, replug the DP, unplug the HDMI. It then works as expected. Colors are weird on HDMI (doesn't do 4:4:4 coding for some reason) so I insist on a DP connection. Once this setup gets going, it will usually survive a sleep / wake cycle (if the PC wakes up, but that's a different story). However, there's a pretty good chance the image will be partially messed up: most often crazy colors and moving lines, sometimes the image will be OK, only somewhat misaligned (think old LCDs with VGA connectors before "auto-adjusting" them) and the monitor will complain of frequency mismatch or something. If I switch inputs on the monitor, it will come back OK. It will not survive a reboot (have to do the dance again). The BIOS has a special "use high definition" entry, that warns against reducing the USB bandwidth. Didn't make a difference. At home, I have an HP desktop with Thunderbolt 3, DP out, etc. I have a USB-C monitor which works fine up until the Windows login screen when it goes blank (no signal). Windows install worked fine. It works if I force the resolution to less than 4k@60Hz. I only got to see the Windows desktop once with this. Didn't survive a reboot and never worked again. None of this happens with Linux/X11, everything works as expected on the same hardware. I fancy myself fairly technical, but I have to admit I have no idea what's going on. Not even where to start looking for issues. I've tried updating the BIOS/firmware across all devices, no luck.
Latty 4y ago
I disagree. I remember the hell of every phone having a different charging cable and having to ask around hoping someone had the same brand as you. Sure, it might be a bit of a pain that you can find a cable/charger that won't support the full charging speed of your device, but at least you can still charge it slower. If they'd changed the connector, you'd throw away your old cables and buy new ones, so just do that every time for the new spec if you really want.
selfmodruntime 4y ago
I disagree. USB-C is common for what, 3 years now? Issues like these are growing pains.
- jbverschoor 4y ago
  Or just pains that will grow in the coming years
- paulmd 4y ago
  Usb-c was specified a decade ago and thunderbolt has been around for a long ass time too. I could have bought "growing pains" in 2016-2017, it’s just a flaky standard at this point.
  - selfmodruntime 4y ago
    I agree that the standard is too loose.
makeitdouble 4y ago
That’s an oversimplification of the old world. We had different connectors that would or would not work depending on your specific application. Some connectors would only have a smaller set of pins for restricted use cases (charging only, sound only etc.) than the full standard, you still had the quality and ratings issue (think ethernet cables), some companies would still recycle connectors used in other contexts for their specific purpose (a sheer round connector is one of those: there must be hundreds or proprietary cables with a round connector). And of course you’d have adaptors to make a connector work in an equivalent setup. Sure more shapes would make any of these issues limited to a specific shape, but there was still plenty of room to get it wrong. All in all I think USB C is still a step forward.
- yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
  > We had different connectors that would or would not work depending on your specific application. Some connectors would only have a smaller set of pins for restricted use cases (charging only, sound only etc.) than the full standard, you still had the quality and ratings issue (think ethernet cables), some companies would still recycle connectors used in other contexts for their specific purpose (a sheer round connector is one of those: there must be hundreds or proprietary cables with a round connector). Er, but isn't that exactly the problem with USB now? Not all USB ports and all USB cables are interchangeable, some devices use certain pins for restricted use cases (charging only, sound only), cables and devices have painfully varying quality (https://www.pcmag.com/news/poorly-designed-usb-c-cable-kills-google-engineers-laptop https://www.pcmag.com/news/poorly-designed-usb-c-cable-kills... , https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2015/11/google-engineer-leaves-scathing-reviews-of-dodgy-usb-type-c-cables-on-amazon/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2015/11/google-engineer-leav...), and companies reuse the one connector without actually being fully compatible (Nintendo, I'm looking at you).
  - makeitdouble 4y ago
    It totally is. I even have a Xiamo robot toy that uses the USB-C shape connector over a completely proprietary connection (non of the voltage or protocol match) The difference is it's one less issue to deal with: we don't have to fret about the connector shape anymore. There's also a fighting chance to have "all around" cables that match 90% of what you expect to be using it for.
philistine 4y ago
Intel and Apple to the rescue. If you focus on Thunderbolt ports, cables and docks, everything is simple to understand.
altairprime 4y ago
On Zyxel 16.8 rackmount modem enclosures, the barrel power plug that went into each modem blade was hot on the outside barrel rather than on the inside like every other sensible power connector using barrel plugs. So you would destroy a blade every couple weeks when an unused or unplugged power connector barrel would touch the modem blade and destroy the modem through its circuitry’s apparently-unprotected ground. We‘ve been having connector issues for as long as we’ve had connectors.
Gigachad 4y ago
For the average person, none of it matters. Every single one of the cables does charging, most users charge their phone overnight so everything works well enough. Some users will have a thunderbolt cable that came with their monitor that they will leave plugged in and is identifiable by being thick and stiff.

Theodores 4y ago

I was hoping to find out if I can use a TB4 hub to connect two computers for super fast networking. Currently I have a cable between two computers, when I plug it in I get the ridiculous fast speeds and it configures the point to point networking in such a way it falls back to wifi if the cable is not present. I would like to do this with a TB4 hub in the middle. I don't want to connect a GPU (yet) but I do want the speed of networking with no latency that TB4 networking does. I think it is faster than NVMe SSDs. Does anyone have a TB4 hub and two linux boxes and TB4 cables to see what happens if you connect two computers via a TB4 hub - do you get the networking automatically?

justsomehnguy 4y ago
> I think it is faster than NVMe SSDs NVMe is sitting directly on PCI-E bus, which is connected directly to the CPU. The only thing what is faster than that is RAM.
- jbverschoor 4y ago
  I thought Thunderbolt was also directly on the pci bus which is also a reason I don’t want too many tb devices. I prefer not to have my motherboard fried
- hatware 4y ago
  I think they are talking about bandwidth, not latency. Thunderbolt should give 40gbps, which is a ton of bandwidth.
formerly_proven 4y ago
> Does anyone have a TB4 hub and two linux boxes and TB4 cables to see what happens if you connect two computers via a TB4 hub - do you get the networking automatically? What happens if you plug two TB4 ports from the same device into the hub?
- Theodores 4y ago
  I don't fancy spotting $300 to find out. Right now I have a mere USB C hub that does not do power delivery. I need a dock and they cost money I can spend on other things. However, if I knew of a dock that worked then I would get one, price permitting.

politician 4y ago

This is the sort of post that I find myself wanting to click a button and have it indexed into my personal information system, so that I can find it later without hoping that it doesn’t disappear from the Internet or fall off search indices before I need it. In lieu of this mythical system, this post on HN.

ajvs 4y ago
archive.org?
ghaff 4y ago
Use an online tagging service? I use pinboard.in all the time. A lot of people seem to like raindrop which is newer and more maintained.
worble 4y ago
Joplin has a great addon that can clip entire pages into a note (with various options such as convert to md or just plain html). Works great for articles but I imagine anything really JS heavy might fall over, although luckily I've never really had any problems with it myself.
darkteflon 4y ago
Print to PDF -> put it in a “knowledge base” folder in your home dir -> find it (or anything else) later using full-text search with, e.g. Houdahspot. Simple and durable. I store thousands of articles this way going back years. Search-first interfaces are great.
Terretta 4y ago
Add the Markdownload Markdown Web Clipper extension to your browser. Exists for Chrome, Edge, Firefox, as well as Safari on MacOS and iOS. Organize using whatever Markdown tool you like, from folders and OS search to Obsidian.md.

larusso 4y ago

> TB1/2/3 ports can be daisychained with up to 6 devices in the chain. Hubs (i.e. a split in the connection) are not supported until TB4. The last device in the chain can be a non-TB DP display as well. This didn’t work with the Apple Thunderbolt Display. I tried this a few times and got this only to work with a TB Hub in the middle. And to add to: > Thunderbolt 4 seems to be essentially just USB4 with all optional items implemented (but USB4 is more like TB3 than USB3...). TB4 is as described but adds restriction to min/max speeds. This is more for the to be connected devices than the computer. It is a form of seal that it will work with the highest possible speed. Otherwise it could just be USB-4 or TB3.

rssoconnor 4y ago

For a person satisfied with a single monitor, I figure it makes sense to get a monitor that is itself a dock. At the moment I'm considering the Dell UltraSharp 32 4K USB-C Hub Monitor - U3223QE. I know it is only a USB-C hub, but I'd like to be able to plug my older laptops into it on occasion, so I need something with a least an HDMI input and preferably also a DisplayPort input. I don't know anything about monitor-hubs so if people have comments or recommendations, please let me know.

daviddever23box 4y ago
Looks great! I am using a 350-nit Philips Brilliance 329P9H (manufactured by AOC), and, frankly, the size makes a huge difference contra the need for multiple panels. It works well with Windows and macOS devices. One does not need Thunderbolt on a device like this; anything latency-sensitive or bandwidth-intensive should be connected directly as is. USB-C is fine.
- vladvasiliu 4y ago
  I'd like having a high-speed (10Gb) network port on the monitor, all connected through the single cable. Sure, I think some of the latest USB standards should be able to support that while at the same time providing 4K@60Hz. But I'd also like the monitor to support higher resolutions, too.
  - rssoconnor 4y ago
    Good observation. PC Magazine says the ethernet port of this Dell monitor I'm considering is 1000Mb/s. I can probably live with that, though I'd certainly prefer a monitor-hub with a 10 Gb port if I can find one (that still has DP and HDMI inputs).
    - daviddever23box 4y ago
      Pretty unlikely–nor would I trust the connection to fully saturate the 10GbE interface, as, on a monitor, the most important connection is the video one.

BitwiseFool 4y ago

'One port to rule them all' was a mistake. Instead of being convenient, USB C has become a confusing ordeal of varying capabilities and quality control. It is like we've gone back to having many different types of connectors, but it is even worse because they share the same form factor. For any of the devices that use USB C to charge, I only use the cable that came with it when I purchased it. While I complain, I would also like to mention the USB forum's insane naming strategy and non-obvious labeling system. Remember when USB 3 was easily identifiable because of the blue plastic in the port?

cyborgx7 4y ago
I disagree. What we have now is so much better than what we used to have. Better labeling would be a nice improvement, but I'll still take the current state of things over what we used to have.
- bombcar 4y ago
  What we have works better “in general”. But when it fails in specific cases it’s a real pain to diagnose. I immediately order a thunder bolt cable direct from apple the moment I smell any issues, which often fixes it.
  - AdamN 4y ago
    Seems like it's really easy to diagnose - problem with comms over a cable? 1/ is it seated correctly, 2/ are there any obvious defects, 3/ are the specs of the cable and the ports aligned? Having incompatible ports means 3/ disappears but since many cables support multiple specs, it's nice to often have a win when connecting two devices over a cable rather than simply being blocked because the connector isn't compatible physically.
    - happyopossum 4y ago
      > 3/ are the specs of the cable and the ports aligned? This is basically impossible to diagnose as ports and cables are not marked with their supported specs.

ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago

This has been a big pain, for me. The only docks that have worked for me, have been the CalDigit TSX docks, which I have used for a long time. The TS4 is out of stock on the CalDigit site, and I'm never using Amazon again, for anything over about $100. I'll get it, eventually. I have the latest 14-inch MBP (M1Max). The biggest issues that I encounter are: 1) External keyboard wake up/recognized. If I use a dock, the keyboard is often not recognized. I found that I need to plug directly into the Mac. Otherwise, it sometimes won't wake the computer, or the computer sometimes "forgets" the keyboard. 2) Monitor Handling. I use a 49" LG Ultrawide (5120 X 1440). I used to have it split into two monitors (3840 X 1440, 1680 X 1440), but now use it as a single, ultrwawide, after Apple started natively supporting that resolution. I found that many docks (even "Thunderbolt" ones) and adapters, refused to allow me to select the ultrawide size. Also, the monitor would often fail to be recognized, after the computer wakes, and I would have to reach under, and unplug/replug, to get it recognized. I have the monitor plugged directly into one of the TB ports, with a TB-to-DP cable, and it works great. From what I understand, the new CalDigit should fix these issues.

rektide 4y ago
The note in this article that for whatever reason Mac's dont support the MST capabilities from DisplayPort 1.2 (january 2013) is I think the primary reason folks hate USB-c. Because the obvious great thing docks definitely absolutely should do doesnt work for Apple systems.
- ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
  That makes sense. I really think they included the HDMI, just for projectors. It’s worthless, as a daily monitor port (to me).
  - usrusr 4y ago
    I consider that a given. In my mind I call HDMI "the new VGA port"
jhickok 4y ago

tiffanyh 4y ago

Does anyone know of a good (single) comparison chart with: - power wattage - data speeds - capabilities (eg Display Port) I’ve found a few below but they aren’t complete. [0] https://cdn-learn.adafruit.com/assets/assets/000/085/324/medium800/components_adafruit_USB_C_graphic_outlines.png?1575491911 https://cdn-learn.adafruit.com/assets/assets/000/085/324/med... [1] https://www.akitio.com/images/support/faq/thunderbolt3-vs-usb-c.jpg https://www.akitio.com/images/support/faq/thunderbolt3-vs-us... [2] https://i.redd.it/1n2tk9cd9kj21.png https://i.redd.it/1n2tk9cd9kj21.png [3] https://www.thunderbolttechnology.net/sites/default/files/thunderbolt4-comparison-chart.jpg https://www.thunderbolttechnology.net/sites/default/files/th...

syntheticcdo 4y ago
Regarding cables, I just exclusively use 0.8m Thunderbolt 4 100 W cables. If something isn't working, for sure it is the device on one end of the cable and not the cable itself.

artificialLimbs 4y ago

M1 MPB 14", 2 external monitors: I would pay quite a bit of money if Apple would make a dock that I could plug into and have my apps move back into the position they were in (including correct monitor) when I unplugged the cable. Bonus points if windows would automatically arrange themselves back when I unplug and work on laptop only, but this is probably a Mac OS thing more than a dock thing, right? Currently it's just a crapshoot as to where my apps will be. Will they be on the right monitor? Will the monitors have magically juxtaposed? Will everything be only on the laptop screen? Who knows!? This is a productivity destroyer for me, multiple times per day. Yes, I wait until both screens have powered on. And then some extra time... and it doesn't matter at all.

dmitriid 4y ago
> if Apple would make a dock that I could plug into and have my apps move back into the position they were in (including correct monitor) when I unplugged the cable. Isn't that handled by software? That Apple hasn't been able to provide for ages despite originally bosting to have the best monitor support, and now releasing "the best" external display with Studio Display? > Currently it's just a crapshoot as to where my apps will be. Will they be on the right monitor? Will the monitors have magically juxtaposed? Will everything be only on the laptop screen? Who knows!? Yup. It's been a pain for me since forever.
ozzydave 4y ago
This is the monitors fault though right? Because the manufacturer flashes them with the exact same identifier, so the laptop has no way to tell them apart. There was a blog post about it here recently. https://notes.alinpanaitiu.com/Weird%20monitor%20bugs https://notes.alinpanaitiu.com/Weird%20monitor%20bugs
jcynix 4y ago
You might want to try out "window tidy" which allows to define arrangements of windows: https://www.lightpillar.com/window-tidy.html https://www.lightpillar.com/window-tidy.html

rrgok 4y ago

I'm starting to think that it is all purposefully designed to confuse the consumer. There is no reason, absolutely no reason at all, that the same cable/port can sometime transport only video, sometime only audio, sometime only raw data, sometime only power and sometime all of them put together or some combination of them. We can connect to a server to other side of the world or watch movie from youtube with the same cable (Ethernet, heck with the same connection) while writing a comment in HN, but somehow connecting a monitor and usb keyboard needs N different type of cables/port.

cowtools 4y ago
It's not just about the cable, it's about the controller chip on either side of the cable, and the bandwidth (pcie, etc.) attached to the controller. You can't make a standard that always does everything while being afforable enough to be used in low-cost, low-margin devices
- colordrops 4y ago
  Yeah you can, enforce labeling and colors, maybe even an extra nub that only fits certain ports if capabilities aren't needed.
notacoward 4y ago
> There is no reason, absolutely no reason at all There is a reason: cost. A lower-capability cable is cheaper to make, and people don't want to pay more when the lower capability (often just power) is all they need. If every cable had to be made to the absolute highest spec, people would complain about that too. There are also economies of scale etc. from using the same connector. Yes, the situation is bad. Worse than it needs to be. Better branding and labeling and OS diagnostics would all help. But "absolutely no reason" is still either naive or exaggeration.

notacoward 4y ago

> It is like we've gone back to having many different types of connectors Not quite. Before, if the cable provided by your device manufacturer failed or was lost, you had practically no chance to replace it other than buying another overpriced cable from the original manufacturer. Keeping a backup around for every single device was often infeasible. Now you have a very good chance of finding an adequate replacement, even of a reasonably priced exact replacement if you work at it. "But you can fry your Nintendo Switch now!" Well, yeah, but built-in signaling and negotiation has kept such cases rare enough to make the news, and it wasn't impossible before. Maybe not with the smaller devices using unique connectors, but back then it was common to reduce the number of adapters by carrying a "universal" one and a bag of tips. Set the voltage wrong and BZZZT fried laptop. So it's complex in different ways but I agree with those who say that thinking it's worse requires some serious rose-colored glasses (or not having been an adult during that time). I'll take being able to charge nearly a dozen different devices, from earbuds to laptops, with the same one charger and cables, even if that cable doesn't provide absolutely full functionality for every combination. Carrying around a bunch of separate connectors and (usually built in) cables really sucked. In practical terms, it left people stranded without any power option, or with an actually dead device, even more often.

cesarvarela 4y ago

My 3 rules: 1. buy everything thunderbolt 4 certified 2. connect monitors using tb -> dp cables 3. avoid Linux and Windows (vms are ok) Everything works as it should and using only one cable I’m connecting my MacBook to 2 monitors, a webcam, a screen capture card, a microphone, a stream deck, and it even charges the battery. Break one of the rules and be ready for a world of pain.

zmmmmm 4y ago
> I’m connecting my MacBook to 2 monitors Did you really find a solution where you plug in one cable and you natively get two independent screens out of your MacBook? To my great frustration I have found my M1 Pro can only extend to one monitor, not two. Every solution out there either ends up with "mirrored" displays (useless) or requires to virtualise the link via DisplayLink which I really don't like. Apparently it's a fundamental issue with limitations of Apple's implementation.
- cesarvarela 4y ago
  Yes, mine is an m1 pro too. The error you have is that it doesn't support MST (daisy chaining monitors) but if I use separate thunderbolt -> display port cables for each monitor it works.
- jluh 4y ago
  I have 2x 27", 1440p monitors connected to my M1 Pro. I have this dock: https://amazon.com/dp/B08FF6WYZH https://amazon.com/dp/B08FF6WYZH, and both monitors are connected to the dock though HDMI.
redditor98654 4y ago
I am using a Lenovo Thinkpad running Ubuntu 22.04 with a single cable plugged to an HP thunderbolt 3 120W dock which then connected to three monitors all running at 2K 60HZ plus a host of other peripherals. The Intel Mac I had previously wasn’t able to do this but thankfully my company allows Linux laptops. So the recommendation to just avoid Linux is unfair IMO.

banana_giraffe 4y ago

I have an ultrawide monitor on such a dock. I have three laptops (work, personal, so's laptop). It's been a never ending quest to figure this mess out. I've had one cable fail, and one dock fail. I now own three thunderbolt cables, and two working docks, and a dead one. Personal laptop has 3 USB-C ports, only one of which is Thunderbolt. If I forget and use the more conveniently placed USB-C port, the resolution is limited. If I neglect to connect it to power first, it won't reliably connect to the dock. Work laptop will connect, but will always decide I want 1080P, I have to manually adjust the resolution each time. I have noticed if the monitor is set to 120 HZ, the laptop refuses to acknowledge it exists. 240 or 60 HZ works. SO's laptop was quite the quest. It works now, but originally it refused to activate the display. Other ports on the dock worked, the display itself worked with a single DisplayPort -> Thunderbolt cable. The display was listed in the graphics card driver software when connected via the dock, it just refused to allow me to enable it. Things would work without a display driver, or a really old version of the driver. Various driver removal utilities didn't help. I flattened the laptop and installed the latest drivers. Things work for now. I've come away from this mess with a setup that mostly works, but surely doesn't feel stable. And if it stops working, I have basically no clue as to why. Could be a failed part, could be a driver issue, nothing really gives me any feedback as to why it's not working.

fnordpiglet 4y ago
I for one miss the world of VESA and RS232. Those were the days!
- idealmedtech 4y ago
  You mean VGA? Most every monitor these days still has VESA mounting holes.
  - antod 4y ago
    Assuming you weren't trolling, VESA has had many more standards than just the mounting brackets. eg Display Port is one of theirs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_Electronics_Standards_Association https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_Electronics_Standards_As...

nfriedly 4y ago

I prefer DisplayPort over HDMI, and find it rather annoying how many USB-C hubs only have HDMI options - especially when it means extra circuitry to convert from DP to HDMI.

rizzaxc 4y ago

has anyone tried their M1 Pro with 2 4K monitors, one at 120/ 144 and the other at 60 using 1 cable? I think it's theoretically possible with compression but I'm afraid of compatibility issues

antod 4y ago
I've never been able to get a Mac (currently using an M1 Pro) to get multiple monitors to share a physical port - eg DP daisy chaining or 2 monitors on a TB3 dock. It might be able to do it with a TB4 dock though?
paulmd 4y ago
TB3/USB4 tops out at a pair of 4K60 displays. I don't think even DSC can get you a 50-70% bandwidth increase regardless of whether M1 Pro/Max support them.

brian_herman 4y ago

The styles of this site are amazing black and white.

francisofascii 4y ago

Is this complexity the reason why docks are so pricy? I still don't get why docks cost more than the actual monitors I am trying to connect to.

ledgerdev 4y ago

Guess what, my Lenovo TB4 dock isn't compatible with lenovo TB3 laptops.. go figure, better yet just buy a framework!

Cu3PO42 4y ago

> TB1/2/3 are only implemented by Intel chips, and TB1/2 is used almost exclusively by Apple. TB4/USB4 can be implemented by other chip makers too, but this has not happened yet I believe. Apple has made USB4 controllers for their M1/M2 devices. Though it isn't fully clear to me if the author is aware and meant "chipmakers other than Intel and Apple".

frozencell 4y ago

What are the options to connect a second external screen to a M1 air laptop?

Gigachad 4y ago
Nothing officially supported. The GPU on the M1 isn't capable of it. I did see there was some hack to do it with some serious downsides though.

rowanG077 4y ago

Simply don't cheap out in cables. Buy a few Thunderbolt 3/USB 4 cables and sleep soundly. This is what I did and I have had literally 0 problems since. Connecting eGPU? No problem? Charging laptop? Sure thing. Connect dock with external monitors? Coming right up. Sure if you skimp out and buy the unmarked cheapest cable you will have problems.

WatchDog 4y ago

Great article, so much complexity and it doesn't even really cover USB power delivery and proprietary extensions like Quick Charge[0]. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quick_Charge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quick_Charge

nuker 4y ago

(ahem) So will TB4 or USB4 hosts support my new WD P50 2TB SSD drive, which is USB3.2 gen 2x2 (20Gbps)?

thadk 4y ago

> USB4 10 Gbps (gen 2) uses 64b/66b = 9.697 Gbps > USB4 20 Gbps (gen 3) uses 128b/132b = 19.39 Gbps > Thunderbolt 3 10.3125Gbps uses 64b/66b = 10Gbps > Thunderbolt 3 20.625Gbps uses 64b/66b = 20Gbps Hah, seems Apple doesn't want to get sued again for bit distinctions so they're making sure the sticker unit matches the true rate with the standard they control more of. It's a bit like the decimal/binary distinction: https://blog.codinghorror.com/gigabyte-decimal-vs-binary/ https://blog.codinghorror.com/gigabyte-decimal-vs-binary/

swah 4y ago

Just to counter the usual tone of threads like this, I'll say that I'm super happy having finally jumped the ship and bought an used "real dock" (ie not another hub from Aliexpress) from Dell - one single cable and I get the Macbook charging, wired ethernet, my usb peripherals and 4k 60hz display. But then I'm from the time of parallel-port printers and dial-up internet, so maybe my bar is lower...