4 ms·

Having better local sources of water and treatment may turn out to he a better idea than centralized water treatment. Here in the US, water is pumped (often up

by hosh 4y ago

Having better local sources of water and treatment may turn out to he a better idea than centralized water treatment. Here in the US, water is pumped (often uphill) and purified to drinking water standards, only for 70% of residential water used for watering green lawns. Those lawns are usually grown in a way where soil microbes are killed off, water retention capability are reduced (so it needs more water), and the lawn is excessively cut and fertilized in order preserve an aesthetic. Being able to waste land and water resources like that is a typical signal of wealth. Personally for me, signaling wealth by wasting resources is not a characteristic that is admirable for me. Better water management can include multiple rounds of circulating greywater to support food-bearing perennials, and on-site or perhaps, neighborhood level treatment of water. So it may turn out that, if you look beyond the modern West as if it is the pinnacle of civilization, you can skip the mistakes and develop something better for your country and your local community. EDIT: this 10 min video shows the basic principles for onsite greywater and blackwater harvesting: https://youtu.be/f-sRcVkZ9yg https://youtu.be/f-sRcVkZ9yg

ChuckNorris89 4y ago
>Personally for me, signaling wealth by wasting resources is not a characteristic that is admirable for me. Hmmm, if only we could have some laws and regulations preventing resource waste and focus on saving the environment. Like an agency focused on ... environmental protection.
sroussey 4y ago
In Irvine, California, homes are plumbed with two water lines: potable, and greywater. So even in the middle of a drought, everything is green.
- coliveira 4y ago
  More waste: now there is an extra water system to maintain and repair.
  - RC_ITR 4y ago
    Define “extra” Do you consider hot/cold plumbing to be two systems?
    - tentacleuno 4y ago
      Yes, I do. One is connected to the mains water, while the other goes through a series of pipes to the boiler.
- hosh 4y ago
  Yup, that’s a great start. There’s a lot more that can be done. For example, there are better ways to treat blackwater than dumping it into a septic tank and a leach field. Incorporating and cycling blackwater through plants that evolved to drink and process blackwater can help clean it faster. I would not want to cycle it immediately back to onsite drinking water, but in a situation like Jackson, MS, I know I am not contributing sewage to my neighbor’s bathwater. This video goes through the design principles for onsite greywater and blackwater harvesting: https://youtu.be/f-sRcVkZ9yg https://youtu.be/f-sRcVkZ9yg
- bsder 4y ago
  For those unfamilar with the California scene: there is an agricultural water shortage, not a residential one. You could reduce residential usage of water in California to zero and it would barely make a dent in the water shortage. California can relatively easily desalinate its way out of residential water shortage. On the other hand, shutting down the agribusinesses in the Central Valley completely fixes California's water shortage for everybody.
  - bradgessler 4y ago
    It sounds easy to say “shut down agribusiness,” but then you have a food problem. I don’t know to what extent, but I can’t take “cut off ag” solutions seriously unless they can articulate the impact of the cut-off on food supplies and present alternatives for more efficient crops.
    - bsder 4y ago
      Cutting off alfalfa being exported won't hurt "food supplies" in the US one bit. Almonds, similarly, are hardly necessary for maintaining our "food supply". There are other, more staple, crops that use a lot less water but the agribusinesses choose not to grow them because they don't make as much profit. One of the perennial problems in California is that the agribusinesses don't pay anywhere close to what they should for water. This creates gigantic misincentives to suck up the water and leave somebody else holding the bag. If the water rates were higher, the agribusinesses would grow a very different mix of crops. Of course, since the agribusinesses also throw around lots of money, politicians won't touch the issue. The coastal cities finally decided that they need to build enough desalinization plants to cover their needs so they can simply ignore the ongoing Central Valley fiasco.
- granshaw 4y ago
  You can get that in some places in North Carolina too, but it costs thousands to get the non sewered line installed, so most homeowners don’t do it
coliveira 4y ago
I would be very glad if grass lawns were made unlawful in the US. It is a terrible waste of time, money, and natural resources for something so useless. I don't have any idea why this silly concept became so common in this country.
- echelon 4y ago
  I get how you would come to believe that if you didn't have one. Let's ban avocados, too! They're an incredible waste of water and resources. (I can't stand how they taste, so this wouldn't affect me.)
  - 8f2ab37a-ed6c 4y ago
  - coliveira 4y ago
    I happen to be forced by the city to maintain a green lawn. That's why I came to believe this.
    - bradleyjg 4y ago
      There’s a authoritarian law you don’t like, so you hope to seize power and pass the opposite authoritarian law. How about trying for a truce instead?
      - userbinator 4y ago
        American politics in a nutshell.
    - SteveGerencser 4y ago
      Apply to be a federally protected wildlife habitat. My daughter did that in a city in Indiana. Ripped out her 'lawn' and replanted with native grasses and things to promote butterfly and bee habitats. The city hates that they can't fine her anymore. https://www.nwf.org/garden-for-wildlife/certify https://www.nwf.org/garden-for-wildlife/certify
echelon 4y ago
> Being able to waste land and water resources like that is a typical signal of wealth. The people with lawns that I know and grew up knowing didn't take care of them to "signal wealth". Many would never care to own a luxury car or Rolex. Rather, they enjoyed gardening, the aesthetics, and having their kids play in the lawn. They barbequed every weekend and enjoyed time outdoors at home. > Those lawns are usually grown in a way where soil microbes are killed off, water retention capability are reduced (so it needs more water) This land will never be used for farming again. It's residential and will remain so for centuries or longer. Many of these perceptions are from assumption or projection. Not actually living these lives or being familiar enough with the people making these decisions.
- hosh 4y ago
  My wife tells me the same things about wanting a lawn for the kids to play with. It’s only recently that she has opened up to alternatives — from having native grasses and ground cover, to shaping the terrain. I live in suburban US in a major metropolitan area, and I grew up here. When I talk to people around me maintaining lawns, they don’t think they are signaling wealth either. But some look at me like I am crazy for developing a front yard with native plants. I am not assuming nor am I projecting. That signal for wealth is largely unconscious. Used to be, those lawns were maintained by sheep. It was a sign of wealth when you can have a lawn that was not pasture. Then people got their own patch of lawns, didn’t have sheep. If you were to propose to people to get rid of their lawn, there is usually an unconscious resistance coming from wanting that aesthetic. But rarely are those aesthetics and why it is pleasing ever examined. Instead, there are nebulous notions about property value, or about how a trim, neat lawn reflects the work ethics, or caring about one’s property. It’s stuff that has been conditioned. Furthermore, I was responding to someone from Nigeria. From the perspective of someone whose community have to dig for their own water or sewage, running water is a huge deal. I recall a Netflix documentary of one Indian woman’s fight with the local government to get flushing toilets for a school. Those people who are not consciously signaling wealth are instead taking the wealth for granted, not even knowing the history of lawns. The point still stands: 70% of residential water purified to drinking water standards are used to water a lawn. From the perspective of communities where you have to fight tooth and nail to get purified drinking water at all, that’s not so admirable.

by hosh 4y ago

ChuckNorris89 4y ago

>Personally for me, signaling wealth by wasting resources is not a characteristic that is admirable for me. Hmmm, if only we could have some laws and regulations preventing resource waste and focus on saving the environment. Like an agency focused on ... environmental protection.

sroussey 4y ago

In Irvine, California, homes are plumbed with two water lines: potable, and greywater. So even in the middle of a drought, everything is green.

coliveira 4y ago
More waste: now there is an extra water system to maintain and repair.
- RC_ITR 4y ago
  Define “extra” Do you consider hot/cold plumbing to be two systems?
  - tentacleuno 4y ago
    Yes, I do. One is connected to the mains water, while the other goes through a series of pipes to the boiler.
hosh 4y ago
Yup, that’s a great start. There’s a lot more that can be done. For example, there are better ways to treat blackwater than dumping it into a septic tank and a leach field. Incorporating and cycling blackwater through plants that evolved to drink and process blackwater can help clean it faster. I would not want to cycle it immediately back to onsite drinking water, but in a situation like Jackson, MS, I know I am not contributing sewage to my neighbor’s bathwater. This video goes through the design principles for onsite greywater and blackwater harvesting: https://youtu.be/f-sRcVkZ9yg https://youtu.be/f-sRcVkZ9yg
bsder 4y ago
For those unfamilar with the California scene: there is an agricultural water shortage, not a residential one. You could reduce residential usage of water in California to zero and it would barely make a dent in the water shortage. California can relatively easily desalinate its way out of residential water shortage. On the other hand, shutting down the agribusinesses in the Central Valley completely fixes California's water shortage for everybody.
- bradgessler 4y ago
  It sounds easy to say “shut down agribusiness,” but then you have a food problem. I don’t know to what extent, but I can’t take “cut off ag” solutions seriously unless they can articulate the impact of the cut-off on food supplies and present alternatives for more efficient crops.
  - bsder 4y ago
    Cutting off alfalfa being exported won't hurt "food supplies" in the US one bit. Almonds, similarly, are hardly necessary for maintaining our "food supply". There are other, more staple, crops that use a lot less water but the agribusinesses choose not to grow them because they don't make as much profit. One of the perennial problems in California is that the agribusinesses don't pay anywhere close to what they should for water. This creates gigantic misincentives to suck up the water and leave somebody else holding the bag. If the water rates were higher, the agribusinesses would grow a very different mix of crops. Of course, since the agribusinesses also throw around lots of money, politicians won't touch the issue. The coastal cities finally decided that they need to build enough desalinization plants to cover their needs so they can simply ignore the ongoing Central Valley fiasco.
granshaw 4y ago
You can get that in some places in North Carolina too, but it costs thousands to get the non sewered line installed, so most homeowners don’t do it

coliveira 4y ago

I would be very glad if grass lawns were made unlawful in the US. It is a terrible waste of time, money, and natural resources for something so useless. I don't have any idea why this silly concept became so common in this country.

echelon 4y ago
I get how you would come to believe that if you didn't have one. Let's ban avocados, too! They're an incredible waste of water and resources. (I can't stand how they taste, so this wouldn't affect me.)
- 8f2ab37a-ed6c 4y ago
- coliveira 4y ago
  I happen to be forced by the city to maintain a green lawn. That's why I came to believe this.
  - bradleyjg 4y ago
    There’s a authoritarian law you don’t like, so you hope to seize power and pass the opposite authoritarian law. How about trying for a truce instead?
    - userbinator 4y ago
      American politics in a nutshell.
  - SteveGerencser 4y ago
    Apply to be a federally protected wildlife habitat. My daughter did that in a city in Indiana. Ripped out her 'lawn' and replanted with native grasses and things to promote butterfly and bee habitats. The city hates that they can't fine her anymore. https://www.nwf.org/garden-for-wildlife/certify https://www.nwf.org/garden-for-wildlife/certify

echelon 4y ago

> Being able to waste land and water resources like that is a typical signal of wealth. The people with lawns that I know and grew up knowing didn't take care of them to "signal wealth". Many would never care to own a luxury car or Rolex. Rather, they enjoyed gardening, the aesthetics, and having their kids play in the lawn. They barbequed every weekend and enjoyed time outdoors at home. > Those lawns are usually grown in a way where soil microbes are killed off, water retention capability are reduced (so it needs more water) This land will never be used for farming again. It's residential and will remain so for centuries or longer. Many of these perceptions are from assumption or projection. Not actually living these lives or being familiar enough with the people making these decisions.

hosh 4y ago
My wife tells me the same things about wanting a lawn for the kids to play with. It’s only recently that she has opened up to alternatives — from having native grasses and ground cover, to shaping the terrain. I live in suburban US in a major metropolitan area, and I grew up here. When I talk to people around me maintaining lawns, they don’t think they are signaling wealth either. But some look at me like I am crazy for developing a front yard with native plants. I am not assuming nor am I projecting. That signal for wealth is largely unconscious. Used to be, those lawns were maintained by sheep. It was a sign of wealth when you can have a lawn that was not pasture. Then people got their own patch of lawns, didn’t have sheep. If you were to propose to people to get rid of their lawn, there is usually an unconscious resistance coming from wanting that aesthetic. But rarely are those aesthetics and why it is pleasing ever examined. Instead, there are nebulous notions about property value, or about how a trim, neat lawn reflects the work ethics, or caring about one’s property. It’s stuff that has been conditioned. Furthermore, I was responding to someone from Nigeria. From the perspective of someone whose community have to dig for their own water or sewage, running water is a huge deal. I recall a Netflix documentary of one Indian woman’s fight with the local government to get flushing toilets for a school. Those people who are not consciously signaling wealth are instead taking the wealth for granted, not even knowing the history of lawns. The point still stands: 70% of residential water purified to drinking water standards are used to water a lawn. From the perspective of communities where you have to fight tooth and nail to get purified drinking water at all, that’s not so admirable.