5 ms·

You could live with dignity here in France on minimum wage, how about the US?

by rozenmd 4y ago

jdhn 4y ago
What does dignity mean in this context?
- Marazan 4y ago
  It means an adverse medical condition doesn't financially cripple you for life.
  - cscurmudgeon 4y ago
    How do you objectively measure that? Overall quality of life umbers suggest the opposite of what you say in the above comment. We should always go by data and objectivity: https://www.numbeo.com/quality-of-life/compare_countries_result.jsp?country1=United+States&country2=France https://www.numbeo.com/quality-of-life/compare_countries_res... Also, HDI for the US is higher that of France: https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/hdi-by-country https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/hdi-by-co...
    - ben_w 4y ago
      I think you first link mainly demonstrates that quality of life is composed of many things. It's OK for different people to weight each of those things differently.
    - jerojero 4y ago
      If you use the inequality adjusted HDI then the USA falls below France. It's up to you to decide if that's a more fair comparison or not, but we are not most people so I find inequality an extremely important measure to adjust for. I think I'd rather be poor or middle class in France than I would the USA. But I would prefer to be wealthy in the USA than in France.
      - cscurmudgeon 4y ago
        As a non-Christian immigrant, I prefer to be in the US than France at any wealth level. https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/eurocrisispress/2021/06/15/weaponization-of-laicite/ https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/eurocrisispress/2021/06/15/weaponiza...
    - Groxx 4y ago
      You say that as if you think "quality of life" is not deeply, fundamentally subjective...
      - cscurmudgeon 4y ago
        So? Go and make this point to the original poster.
    - MaxBarraclough 4y ago
      > How do you objectively measure that? Compare the top causes of personal bankruptcies in the USA and France. Medical debt is one of the top causes in the USA. I wasn't able to confirm this with a quick search, but I sincerely doubt that's true of France. (The other replies here seem to have missed that Marazan's point was about financial ruin from medical expenses, and was not a general point about quality-of-life.)
      - cscurmudgeon 4y ago
        The other replies don't miss that. Marazan's just randomly equated: "You could live with dignity here in France on minimum wage" with "It means an adverse medical condition doesn't financially cripple you for life." That is an important component of dignity but not the only one. Homelessness is another component. And frankly, after being in Paris and living in SF, I am much more worried about folks in Paris. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_homeless_population https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_homeless_...
    - cscurmudgeon 4y ago
      Since I can't edit the parent. Funny that a perfectly reasonable comment is downvoted to the max because folks here can't deal with an objective truth that goes against their beliefs "US bad Muh Europe good".
- Daishiman 4y ago
  Not having start a GoFundMe when you get sick.
einpoklum 4y ago
> You could live with dignity here in France on minimum wage I don't know about that, but - your French employer can certainly live off of you when you're making minimum wage. > how about the US? It's questionable whether you could live in dignity in the US regardless of what your salary is... just looking at the situation in Jackson, Mississipi right now, or the state of public transport or healthcare in a country as rich as the US makes you feel like someone is playing a cruel joke at people's expense.
- DFHippie 4y ago
  The problem in the US is that there's a huge chunk of the population that believes the chief thing the government can give them is vengeance against their uppity neighbors. Where this movement is ascendant, the government does little more than deal out humiliation to those out of power. Those who control the movement are free to loot the governmental power left unused. I agree that there's little dignity in it. This is ameliorated by federalism. If you don't want to live in crazytown, you can pull up roots and move to another state with a government that actually tries to identify and solve real problems. I think the same dynamic plays out everywhere on Earth in different forms. In some places the folks seeking to avenge their honor, and the false friends stoking their grievances, are fewer, but there are some everywhere.
formerkrogemp 4y ago
> You could live with dignity here in France on minimum wage, how about the US? In my experience there's not much dignity in the US working for minimum wage.

You could live with dignity here in France on minimum wage, how about the US?

jdhn 4y ago

What does dignity mean in this context?

Marazan 4y ago
It means an adverse medical condition doesn't financially cripple you for life.
- cscurmudgeon 4y ago
  How do you objectively measure that? Overall quality of life umbers suggest the opposite of what you say in the above comment. We should always go by data and objectivity: https://www.numbeo.com/quality-of-life/compare_countries_result.jsp?country1=United+States&country2=France https://www.numbeo.com/quality-of-life/compare_countries_res... Also, HDI for the US is higher that of France: https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/hdi-by-country https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/hdi-by-co...
  - ben_w 4y ago
    I think you first link mainly demonstrates that quality of life is composed of many things. It's OK for different people to weight each of those things differently.
  - jerojero 4y ago
    If you use the inequality adjusted HDI then the USA falls below France. It's up to you to decide if that's a more fair comparison or not, but we are not most people so I find inequality an extremely important measure to adjust for. I think I'd rather be poor or middle class in France than I would the USA. But I would prefer to be wealthy in the USA than in France.
    - cscurmudgeon 4y ago
      As a non-Christian immigrant, I prefer to be in the US than France at any wealth level. https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/eurocrisispress/2021/06/15/weaponization-of-laicite/ https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/eurocrisispress/2021/06/15/weaponiza...
  - Groxx 4y ago
    You say that as if you think "quality of life" is not deeply, fundamentally subjective...
    - cscurmudgeon 4y ago
      So? Go and make this point to the original poster.
  - MaxBarraclough 4y ago
    > How do you objectively measure that? Compare the top causes of personal bankruptcies in the USA and France. Medical debt is one of the top causes in the USA. I wasn't able to confirm this with a quick search, but I sincerely doubt that's true of France. (The other replies here seem to have missed that Marazan's point was about financial ruin from medical expenses, and was not a general point about quality-of-life.)
    - cscurmudgeon 4y ago
      The other replies don't miss that. Marazan's just randomly equated: "You could live with dignity here in France on minimum wage" with "It means an adverse medical condition doesn't financially cripple you for life." That is an important component of dignity but not the only one. Homelessness is another component. And frankly, after being in Paris and living in SF, I am much more worried about folks in Paris. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_homeless_population https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_homeless_...
  - cscurmudgeon 4y ago
    Since I can't edit the parent. Funny that a perfectly reasonable comment is downvoted to the max because folks here can't deal with an objective truth that goes against their beliefs "US bad Muh Europe good".
Daishiman 4y ago
Not having start a GoFundMe when you get sick.

einpoklum 4y ago

> You could live with dignity here in France on minimum wage I don't know about that, but - your French employer can certainly live off of you when you're making minimum wage. > how about the US? It's questionable whether you could live in dignity in the US regardless of what your salary is... just looking at the situation in Jackson, Mississipi right now, or the state of public transport or healthcare in a country as rich as the US makes you feel like someone is playing a cruel joke at people's expense.

DFHippie 4y ago
The problem in the US is that there's a huge chunk of the population that believes the chief thing the government can give them is vengeance against their uppity neighbors. Where this movement is ascendant, the government does little more than deal out humiliation to those out of power. Those who control the movement are free to loot the governmental power left unused. I agree that there's little dignity in it. This is ameliorated by federalism. If you don't want to live in crazytown, you can pull up roots and move to another state with a government that actually tries to identify and solve real problems. I think the same dynamic plays out everywhere on Earth in different forms. In some places the folks seeking to avenge their honor, and the false friends stoking their grievances, are fewer, but there are some everywhere.

formerkrogemp 4y ago

> You could live with dignity here in France on minimum wage, how about the US? In my experience there's not much dignity in the US working for minimum wage.