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> There’s someone in Bangladesh who would almost surely be a better economics professor than I am and is now behind a water buffalo,” he told me. “I am, someho

> There’s someone in Bangladesh who would almost surely be a better economics professor than I am and is now behind a water buffalo,” he told me. “I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops.” ― Stephen Jay Gould, The Panda's Thumb: More Reflections in Natural History (1980)

mytailorisrich 4y ago
Of course, I'm sure that all breakthroughs in human history have been a mix of intellect, hard work, circumstances, and luck. But my problem with what you quote and what I replied to is the anti-capitalist, if not anti-imperialist/anti-western, undercurrent. My take on this quote is the contrary: it is testament to the success of the Western/capitalist/free market economy system. Why? Because the starting point for all of mankind is nothing. But somehow we managed to create a society that allowed Einstein to exist. We should realise what a tremendous success that is. Ultimately it is up to the people to make it happen in their own country and in their own way.
- michaelwww 4y ago
  Capitalism and the Industrial Revolution have produced many astonishing successes. Even Communist China bought into it after looking at the Asian success in Korea and Japan. I don't think many would disagree with this. There are anti-capitalist people but I'd like to hear more about their successful alternative systems. What's being said, I think, is that we could do even better Inequality and America’s Lost Einsteins https://kottke.org/17/12/inequality-and-americas-lost-einsteins https://kottke.org/17/12/inequality-and-americas-lost-einste...
  - jschveibinz 4y ago
    > We are on the verge of ending capitalism… I am curious to see some data to back up your assertion. Here is some data that suggests that the world economy is growing exponentially. Access to capital is a basis for this economy. https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/world-gdp-over-the-last-two-millennia https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/world-gdp-over-the-last-t... It is this same economic growth that has fueled the global rise in quality of life. This article (2016) shows improvement in quality of life over time: https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2016/12/23/14062168/history-global-conditions-charts-life-span-poverty https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2016/12/23/14062168/history... But I stand ready to be corrected by your data.
    - michaelwww 4y ago
      This is the comment you meant to reply to: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32705193 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32705193
- imtringued 4y ago
  >My take on this quote is the contrary: it is testament to the success of the Western/capitalist/free market economy system We are on the verge of ending capitalism, so close to land value taxes and negative interest rates that will prevent the special interests of capital to distort the market and yet at the same we are so far away, scared of ending the endless rat race of outcompeting each other to death amidst a sea of prosperity, because we believe power should breed more power and everyone else should lose power until they end up with nothing. The solutions are already there, the third way beyond capitalism and communism had already graced the planet and we just need to take a step, it isn't even a big one.
- lucas_membrane 4y ago
  > we managed to create a society that allowed Einstein to exist What society was that? Germany under the Kaiser was a very mixed bag running the gamut, for sure. Einstein spent a lot of time living in his own mind rather than in the world around him. He found it preferable to leave his native country behind more than once. We don't know which changes to society would give us more like him and which fewer. > But my problem with what you quote and what I replied to is the anti-capitalist, if not anti-imperialist/anti-western, undercurrent. I followed a few links here and there on this topic, and somewhere I found DeLong suggesting that he used to be a little closer to the thoughts you defend, something like 'the world keeps looking more like what the lefties said it was than like what I thought it was.' It's a rare person who can update their thoughts based on such observations. I can't accept that DeLong is anti-capitalist. He identifies the creation of corporate research labs as one of the very important new factors producing the sharp rise in prosperity starting around 1870. Not all who walk their dogs on leashes are anti-dog. DeLong is an economist, a student of the problems of humanity's production and distribution of goods and services. He sees, in retrospect, a system that has succeeded spectacularly at production but not equally well at distribution, to the point where the distribution problems are producing side-effects and conflicts that are impairing and may ultimately reverse the benefits to production. > make it happen in their own country and in their own way Except that one of the other very important new factors producing the sharp rise in prosperity after 1870 was globalization. The advantages of globalization have made self-sufficiency a fool's errand. International cooperation, organic or hierarchical, has too many advantages to be tossed away according to principle.
throwrqX 4y ago
Couldn't you apply this to anyone really? Perhaps people of equal talent of Einstein became drug dealers, or became addicted to gaming, or became plumbers. You can't predict the future, it's like saying well what if X sportstar from the 1920s played now how good would they be? There's just too many factors to take into account.

mytailorisrich 4y ago

Of course, I'm sure that all breakthroughs in human history have been a mix of intellect, hard work, circumstances, and luck. But my problem with what you quote and what I replied to is the anti-capitalist, if not anti-imperialist/anti-western, undercurrent. My take on this quote is the contrary: it is testament to the success of the Western/capitalist/free market economy system. Why? Because the starting point for all of mankind is nothing. But somehow we managed to create a society that allowed Einstein to exist. We should realise what a tremendous success that is. Ultimately it is up to the people to make it happen in their own country and in their own way.

michaelwww 4y ago
Capitalism and the Industrial Revolution have produced many astonishing successes. Even Communist China bought into it after looking at the Asian success in Korea and Japan. I don't think many would disagree with this. There are anti-capitalist people but I'd like to hear more about their successful alternative systems. What's being said, I think, is that we could do even better Inequality and America’s Lost Einsteins https://kottke.org/17/12/inequality-and-americas-lost-einsteins https://kottke.org/17/12/inequality-and-americas-lost-einste...
- jschveibinz 4y ago
  > We are on the verge of ending capitalism… I am curious to see some data to back up your assertion. Here is some data that suggests that the world economy is growing exponentially. Access to capital is a basis for this economy. https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/world-gdp-over-the-last-two-millennia https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/world-gdp-over-the-last-t... It is this same economic growth that has fueled the global rise in quality of life. This article (2016) shows improvement in quality of life over time: https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2016/12/23/14062168/history-global-conditions-charts-life-span-poverty https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2016/12/23/14062168/history... But I stand ready to be corrected by your data.
  - michaelwww 4y ago
    This is the comment you meant to reply to: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32705193 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32705193
imtringued 4y ago
>My take on this quote is the contrary: it is testament to the success of the Western/capitalist/free market economy system We are on the verge of ending capitalism, so close to land value taxes and negative interest rates that will prevent the special interests of capital to distort the market and yet at the same we are so far away, scared of ending the endless rat race of outcompeting each other to death amidst a sea of prosperity, because we believe power should breed more power and everyone else should lose power until they end up with nothing. The solutions are already there, the third way beyond capitalism and communism had already graced the planet and we just need to take a step, it isn't even a big one.
lucas_membrane 4y ago
> we managed to create a society that allowed Einstein to exist What society was that? Germany under the Kaiser was a very mixed bag running the gamut, for sure. Einstein spent a lot of time living in his own mind rather than in the world around him. He found it preferable to leave his native country behind more than once. We don't know which changes to society would give us more like him and which fewer. > But my problem with what you quote and what I replied to is the anti-capitalist, if not anti-imperialist/anti-western, undercurrent. I followed a few links here and there on this topic, and somewhere I found DeLong suggesting that he used to be a little closer to the thoughts you defend, something like 'the world keeps looking more like what the lefties said it was than like what I thought it was.' It's a rare person who can update their thoughts based on such observations. I can't accept that DeLong is anti-capitalist. He identifies the creation of corporate research labs as one of the very important new factors producing the sharp rise in prosperity starting around 1870. Not all who walk their dogs on leashes are anti-dog. DeLong is an economist, a student of the problems of humanity's production and distribution of goods and services. He sees, in retrospect, a system that has succeeded spectacularly at production but not equally well at distribution, to the point where the distribution problems are producing side-effects and conflicts that are impairing and may ultimately reverse the benefits to production. > make it happen in their own country and in their own way Except that one of the other very important new factors producing the sharp rise in prosperity after 1870 was globalization. The advantages of globalization have made self-sufficiency a fool's errand. International cooperation, organic or hierarchical, has too many advantages to be tossed away according to principle.

throwrqX 4y ago

Couldn't you apply this to anyone really? Perhaps people of equal talent of Einstein became drug dealers, or became addicted to gaming, or became plumbers. You can't predict the future, it's like saying well what if X sportstar from the 1920s played now how good would they be? There's just too many factors to take into account.