4 ms·

>alternatives that don't require us to prop up quasi-dictatorships in order to keep the lights on But how? The entire economy of the city of London is based on

>alternatives that don't require us to prop up quasi-dictatorships in order to keep the lights on But how? The entire economy of the city of London is based on being the word's money laundering capital, vacation playground and best buddy for Russian Oligarchs, Saudi Royals, CCP big shots and other wealthy dictators and warlords. It's Thacher's legacy.

shapefrog 4y ago
> entire economy of the city of London Is pretty much the entire economy of the UK. Yes Thatcher had her part to play, but election after election after referendum, the will of the people is more of the same Great British exceptionalism.
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  People get what they vote for. What's the problem?
  - shapefrog 4y ago
    I am extremely comfortable with people having to suffer the obvious consequences of their choicse, it only bothers me hearing them moan about it.
    - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
      People moan about it because they and their governments haven't understood the consequences of their votes and actions. They wanted to have their cake and eat it too. It doesn't help that elections are also just popularity contests and charades of endless lies and empty promises. Your average voter is far too I'll equipped to make informed judgements on complex issues making them easy to influence through fear mongering by groups with vested interests in seeing the results they want. Everything is fucked.
    - buran77 4y ago
      > I am extremely comfortable with people having to suffer the obvious consequences of their choicse [sic] Of course, because you probably don't have to live with any serious consequences of your choices, and you're most likely unaffected by these ones either. Almost half if not more than half of the population in a democracy usually doesn't get to make a realistic choice, they voted for the losers without enough power to enact anything. Most people don't get to live with the result of their choices but the result of others'. This means the pain is lessened for those responsible, and heightened for others. Are they allowed to moan without triggering your sensibilities? How would you know which is which? Then realistically you probably didn't get to "suffer" the real consequences from most of your democratic process related choices. If you voted for leadership that went on to wage an illegal war you don't get to bear any of that responsibility. People love to bang their own drum about democracy, and freedoms, and their power, and the contribution they made. Until you bring up what the leaders they chose did. And then it's no longer their responsibility, then it's just a stamp on a paper, not a share of the responsibility. What are the consequences you suffer for something like that?
      - lostlogin 4y ago
        > Then realistically you probably didn't get to "suffer" the real consequences from most of your democratic process related choices. An example of this that I have heard many times is that of Blair and Iraq. However now the situation is more interesting as Brexit was done to themselves, not others (though that does not make any suffering ok).
        buran77 4y ago
        > Brexit was done to themselves Part of my point is that unanimity (amongst the people) in democracy is pretty much unheard of. So Brexit was not done by everyone. Realistically it wasn't even done by a majority of the population. All the others are in for the ride despite being against it. Democracy may be the best system we've got now but it sure sucks sometimes. It's why it's called the dictatorship of the majority, and many countries are democratic and yet have very little protections for the different minorities, particularly the ones who have no chance of becoming a majority anytime soon. The other part of the point is that most times people don't suffer from some of their decisions despite taking credit for any when it suits them. Similar to sport fans where when their team wins "we won", and when it loses "they lost".
- Jochim 4y ago
  I think it'd be more accurate to say the will of some people given the effects of the current voting system. That's without going into the effectiveness of tabloid newspapers in inventing public opinion. While people bear at least some responsibility for their actions, I do think they can be put into perspective when you consider the circumstances which led to them.
ThePadawan 4y ago
> London is based on being the word's money laundering capital, vacation playground and best buddy for Russian Oligarchs, Saudi Royals, CCP big shots and other wealthy dictators and warlords. Having lived in Zurich for many years, those are fightin' words! /j
- ReptileMan 4y ago
  As a friend of mine defined Zurich in the mid 90s - Zurich - the Swiss city where one of ten is Swiss ... The irony - she was mail order bride that just got her Swiss citizenship.
  - ignoramous 4y ago
    The quasi-Xenophobes are well and truly out of their closet.
    - ReptileMan 4y ago
      I am full blown xenophobe, not quasi, but not in this case since I was from her home country and were visiting her for a week - but we spend probably half an hour in Zurich trying to find someone that knows the place and speak German or French at acceptable level to give us directions. It was during the late evening and out of 15 people we stopped like one was swiss.
      - ThePadawan 4y ago
        I'm sorry to hear you had such an outlier of an experience - I've never been met with anything except understanding when asking for directions in any of the national languages. > we spend probably half an hour in Zurich trying to find someone that knows the place and speak German or French at acceptable level to give us directions. It was during the late evening and out of 15 people we stopped like one was swiss. Stopped...successfully? And does Swiss German count as "an acceptable level of German" :)? I don't find it hard to believe that 14 people would pass you by (as people would in a major city), but I find it hard to believe that out of 14 people, none would speak the major national languages.
bstr_ 4y ago
Why Thatcher and not Blair? His reforms have a more direct influence on the situation we find ourselves in. After all, it was Mandelson who said "We are intensely relaxed about people getting filthy rich."
- orwin 4y ago
  Because it's all politicians since Thatcher ? But i will admit that the Third way, like it's French equivalent 10 years ago, can do more harm faster than regular liberals.
brnt 4y ago
I think it's deeply ingrained in British culture, through its very much alive social class system. Precisely what Brits (seem to?) like about that qaint system is what makes it possible to maintain such a careless elite class that is not only not punished for creating extractive vehicles such as the City, but even praised and rewarded for it, through British identity politics. "Great" Britain, world power, A-rank capital, and so on. Brits never saw a social revolution, and it shows.

shapefrog 4y ago

> entire economy of the city of London Is pretty much the entire economy of the UK. Yes Thatcher had her part to play, but election after election after referendum, the will of the people is more of the same Great British exceptionalism.

ChuckNorris89 4y ago
People get what they vote for. What's the problem?
- shapefrog 4y ago
  I am extremely comfortable with people having to suffer the obvious consequences of their choicse, it only bothers me hearing them moan about it.
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    People moan about it because they and their governments haven't understood the consequences of their votes and actions. They wanted to have their cake and eat it too. It doesn't help that elections are also just popularity contests and charades of endless lies and empty promises. Your average voter is far too I'll equipped to make informed judgements on complex issues making them easy to influence through fear mongering by groups with vested interests in seeing the results they want. Everything is fucked.
  - buran77 4y ago
    > I am extremely comfortable with people having to suffer the obvious consequences of their choicse [sic] Of course, because you probably don't have to live with any serious consequences of your choices, and you're most likely unaffected by these ones either. Almost half if not more than half of the population in a democracy usually doesn't get to make a realistic choice, they voted for the losers without enough power to enact anything. Most people don't get to live with the result of their choices but the result of others'. This means the pain is lessened for those responsible, and heightened for others. Are they allowed to moan without triggering your sensibilities? How would you know which is which? Then realistically you probably didn't get to "suffer" the real consequences from most of your democratic process related choices. If you voted for leadership that went on to wage an illegal war you don't get to bear any of that responsibility. People love to bang their own drum about democracy, and freedoms, and their power, and the contribution they made. Until you bring up what the leaders they chose did. And then it's no longer their responsibility, then it's just a stamp on a paper, not a share of the responsibility. What are the consequences you suffer for something like that?
    - lostlogin 4y ago
      > Then realistically you probably didn't get to "suffer" the real consequences from most of your democratic process related choices. An example of this that I have heard many times is that of Blair and Iraq. However now the situation is more interesting as Brexit was done to themselves, not others (though that does not make any suffering ok).
      - buran77 4y ago
        > Brexit was done to themselves Part of my point is that unanimity (amongst the people) in democracy is pretty much unheard of. So Brexit was not done by everyone. Realistically it wasn't even done by a majority of the population. All the others are in for the ride despite being against it. Democracy may be the best system we've got now but it sure sucks sometimes. It's why it's called the dictatorship of the majority, and many countries are democratic and yet have very little protections for the different minorities, particularly the ones who have no chance of becoming a majority anytime soon. The other part of the point is that most times people don't suffer from some of their decisions despite taking credit for any when it suits them. Similar to sport fans where when their team wins "we won", and when it loses "they lost".
Jochim 4y ago
I think it'd be more accurate to say the will of some people given the effects of the current voting system. That's without going into the effectiveness of tabloid newspapers in inventing public opinion. While people bear at least some responsibility for their actions, I do think they can be put into perspective when you consider the circumstances which led to them.

ThePadawan 4y ago

> London is based on being the word's money laundering capital, vacation playground and best buddy for Russian Oligarchs, Saudi Royals, CCP big shots and other wealthy dictators and warlords. Having lived in Zurich for many years, those are fightin' words! /j

ReptileMan 4y ago
As a friend of mine defined Zurich in the mid 90s - Zurich - the Swiss city where one of ten is Swiss ... The irony - she was mail order bride that just got her Swiss citizenship.
- ignoramous 4y ago
  The quasi-Xenophobes are well and truly out of their closet.
  - ReptileMan 4y ago
    I am full blown xenophobe, not quasi, but not in this case since I was from her home country and were visiting her for a week - but we spend probably half an hour in Zurich trying to find someone that knows the place and speak German or French at acceptable level to give us directions. It was during the late evening and out of 15 people we stopped like one was swiss.
    - ThePadawan 4y ago
      I'm sorry to hear you had such an outlier of an experience - I've never been met with anything except understanding when asking for directions in any of the national languages. > we spend probably half an hour in Zurich trying to find someone that knows the place and speak German or French at acceptable level to give us directions. It was during the late evening and out of 15 people we stopped like one was swiss. Stopped...successfully? And does Swiss German count as "an acceptable level of German" :)? I don't find it hard to believe that 14 people would pass you by (as people would in a major city), but I find it hard to believe that out of 14 people, none would speak the major national languages.

bstr_ 4y ago

Why Thatcher and not Blair? His reforms have a more direct influence on the situation we find ourselves in. After all, it was Mandelson who said "We are intensely relaxed about people getting filthy rich."

orwin 4y ago
Because it's all politicians since Thatcher ? But i will admit that the Third way, like it's French equivalent 10 years ago, can do more harm faster than regular liberals.

brnt 4y ago

I think it's deeply ingrained in British culture, through its very much alive social class system. Precisely what Brits (seem to?) like about that qaint system is what makes it possible to maintain such a careless elite class that is not only not punished for creating extractive vehicles such as the City, but even praised and rewarded for it, through British identity politics. "Great" Britain, world power, A-rank capital, and so on. Brits never saw a social revolution, and it shows.