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As Britain awaits a new prime minister, its cost-of-living crisis mounts

34 points by vic-traill 4y ago

curiousgal 4y ago
Okay this is a genuine question but why are the G7 not backing down when clearly their populations are the ones suffering? It feels strange to me living in the UK that the sanctions have been spearheaded by the US when they are mostly shielded from Russia. Whereas for European countries, it is obvious that they are dependent on Russian gas and yet they are not willing to negotiate. The average citizen cares about their energy bill and putting food on the table more than some idealistic notion of standing up to bullies.
- Razengan 4y ago
  > when clearly their populations are the ones suffering? Their populations, not their leaders.
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  Because energy companies, even European ones, are making bank. So are asset owners. Every crisis is someone's opportunity to make money off other peoples' loss. As long as their assets are safe and keep going up, nobody cares about CoL going up. Well, at least until riots happen and political extremism grows to new heights. Come on France, 'do yer thang' (riots), we'll follow suit.
  - sofixa 4y ago
    > Come on France, 'do yer thang' (riots), we'll follow suit. Somewhat unlikely for now. The government is shielding the population from the worst, as they should, by capping electricity prices and with grants/loans to those worst impacted. The average Brit is being hit much worse than the average French.
    - cm2187 4y ago
      You are not shielding the country. By printing money to pay for high energy cost, you maintain demand high when there is scarcity (instead of letting the demand adjust, people using heating as little as they can, companies finding substitute for gas, etc), that's a recipe for making the problem worse.
      - Jochim 4y ago
        The free market excuses work for luxury goods but they don't work for necessities. Prices have already reached the point where a large percentage of the population will not be able to afford any form of heating whatsoever over the winter. As a country we already know that a non-insignificant number of people develop serious illness or die because of a lack of heating. Making the choice to take no action further compounds the issue as you deepen the coming recession and create more people who cannot pay to heat their homes or keep the economy going. The answer to a crisis like this is price caps, investment in alternatives, taxes on profits, and if necessary targeted restrictions on energy use. There is absolutely nothing wrong with covering a situation like this with debt in order to keep people and the economy alive.
        cm2187 4y ago
        They will afford heating, only they will heat just the room they need at the temperature they need rather than heating to comfort. And keep in mind, if demand goes down, prices go down.
        lostlogin 4y ago
        Will everyone afford heating? The most painful point hasn’t been reached yet and some reports suggest it’s got a long way to go (tripling by the end of winter). https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-08-20/price-cap-seen-to-breach-6-000-for-first-time-in-grim-new-forecast https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-08-20/price-cap...
        sofixa 4y ago
- unpopularopp 4y ago
  >the sanctions have been spearheaded by the US when they are mostly shielded from Russia. Whereas for European countries, it is obvious that they are dependent on Russian gas and yet they are not willing to negotiate. This was my problem with the Syria war too. US: We want war! Europe you will get refugees, good luck.
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    >US: We want war! Europe you will get refugees, good luck. Europe could have also have pursued a strong military, independent of US protection, energy independence from Russia and a strong domestic tech sector allowing it to stick it up and sanction US and Russian warmongering. But as it stands, it has to 'shut up and take it'.
    - ShivShankaran 4y ago
      Eu is addicted to cheap Russian gas. Replacing with anything other than renewable will drive energy prices higher. The second largest steel mill in the world closed today in Germany.
      - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
        >The second largest steel mill in the world closed today in Germany. "Oh look, if it isn't the consequences of my own actions." - Germany, 2022 (hopefully)
- Jochim 4y ago
  Also in the UK. Personally I'm sick of seeing our government cosy up to authoritarian regimes because they have something we happen to want. In the UK we're particularly unlucky in that the people currently in charge don't really care if the poor in our society freeze or starve as they've stated so astutely in the recent leadership contest. The rest of the G7 at least seem prepared to shield their population as much as possible through planning and government intervention, which is probably why they seem much less concerned. On top of that, the answer to the pain of the current sanctions isn't to go back to relying on Russian gas. It's to pump covid levels of investment into alternatives that don't require us to prop up quasi-dictatorships in order to keep the lights on.
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    >alternatives that don't require us to prop up quasi-dictatorships in order to keep the lights on But how? The entire economy of the city of London is based on being the word's money laundering capital, vacation playground and best buddy for Russian Oligarchs, Saudi Royals, CCP big shots and other wealthy dictators and warlords. It's Thacher's legacy.
    - shapefrog 4y ago
      > entire economy of the city of London Is pretty much the entire economy of the UK. Yes Thatcher had her part to play, but election after election after referendum, the will of the people is more of the same Great British exceptionalism.
      - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
        People get what they vote for. What's the problem?
        shapefrog 4y ago
        I am extremely comfortable with people having to suffer the obvious consequences of their choicse, it only bothers me hearing them moan about it.
- simonh 4y ago
  6 out of 10 Britons support sanctions against Russia.
  - Ekaros 4y ago
    I then genuinely hope that the same 6 out of 10 are happy to pay their increased energy bill.
    - sokoloff 4y ago
      It probably makes sense to modify that from “happy” to “willing”.
    - lostlogin 4y ago
      It didn’t have to be that way though. It probably does now, but reducing dependence on Russia would have been wise in hindsight. It doesn’t take a genius to see that depending on Russia is a bad idea.
      - simonh 4y ago
        For sure, but that boat has sailed. Right now cutting them off as quickly as possible is the right thing to do.
    - simonh 4y ago
      Not everyone cares only about themselves. Some things are worth a degree of sacrifice.
- ruune 4y ago
  Backing down means handing the victory to Russia, which is politically costly in the short term and probably not financially cheaper in the long term. Whether europe wants it or not, they are involved in a war, and you can't just back down in a war without consequences. You could also argue that the current prices are just a teaser of what's coming anyway so more incentive to innovate now instead of later. Very harsh and not completely true, but I think there's a little bit of truth to it
  - ShivShankaran 4y ago
    Russia is exporting more oil and gas to china and India and in long run will export to Africa as well in addition to building 19 nuclear reactors across the world from Egypt to Argentina. China is reselling Russian lng while India is reselling Russian oil as blend. True intelligence is backing down now but stopping all Russian imports gradually over next 10 years
    - mupuff1234 4y ago
      So you think the west should've just let Russia take over Ukraine? Even without the sanctions Russia would've still most likely disrupted gas & oil supply as long as the west supplied Ukraine's army.
      - ShivShankaran 4y ago
    - 323 4y ago
      China increased US gas imports to record levels, after the war started. US is now the biggest exporter of LNG gas to China: https://www.spglobal.com/commodityinsights/en/market-insights/latest-news/oil/062920-china-data-lpg-imports-from-us-surge-to-record-high-733385-mt-in-may https://www.spglobal.com/commodityinsights/en/market-insight...
      - ShivShankaran 4y ago
- podviaznikov 4y ago
  > The average citizen cares about their energy bill and putting food on the table more than some idealistic notion of standing up to bullies. this one is based on what? on some sources or own projections?
- jibbit 4y ago
  You’ve guessed incorrectly how much the average citizen cares about standing up to Putin. Most people believe that the consequences of not standing up to him would be far worse
  - ShivShankaran 4y ago
    Impressive how much propaganda can achieve. The average citizen also wanted to stand up to Saddam, Gaddafi, xi , Al Assad before they take over the world
    - DFHippie 4y ago
      > Impressive how much propaganda can achieve. Alanis Morissette missed a lyric.
    - MrRiddle 4y ago
      Interesting how people care about Ukraine where Russian actions are arguably very localized to military targets but no one is concerned for over 500k dead in Iraq and their current civil war, all caused by certain NATO countries. Half of the ME is on fire, but no one care. Just a bunch of hypocrites.
      - lostlogin 4y ago
        > Russian actions are arguably very localized to military targets I don’t think anyone believes this. Your comment is whataboutism at a grand level. It is possible to oppose slaughtering people wherever they live.
        MrRiddle 4y ago
        Yet people didn’t oppose when their own governments were slaughtering people. Countries ruined for decades if not centuries. Whataboutism would be if I justified Russian actions, but I’m not doing that. I’m looking at the western butchers pointing fingers at Russian butchers. Hypocrite.
- mellavora 4y ago
  Counter-argument. Why are the G7 not increasing the aid to Ukraine, to more quickly end the war and force Russia to settle?
  - 323 4y ago
    Because G7 is afraid of Russia splintering into 10 nuclear republics. This is well covered by various analysts. So G7 wants a soft "landing".
  - ShivShankaran 4y ago
    Exactly.. Why not amp up the war against the super power with most nukes in the world. I wonder what would happen if the real civilized world started aiding freedom fighters against UK in Iraq, Syria and Libya? Russia will probably start doing that
    - sofixa 4y ago
      This false equivalency is honestly revolting. Anyways, Putin is, hopefully, not mad enough to step into nuclear territory. We'll see how he fares when he's cornered in (when Ukraine's counteroffensives get too serious to hide from the Russian public and he has to mobilise to hope to win, or back down.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - dmytrish 4y ago
      Do I understand correctly that what you propose is making this derailed "super"power richer and more connected to the countries it's been trying to subvert for fifteen years?
  - Mountain_Skies 4y ago
    The G7, NATO and others have showered Ukraine with more money than it will ever be able to spend on military assets (which they are also being showered with). Ukraine needs experienced solders and expertise in the conflict zone. NATO, G7, etc. are unwilling to make that escalation so they'll keep on throwing more money and resources into a black hole to appear to be doing something when they're not willing to do the one thing that must be done if they want Ukraine to prevail. The only question is how long will the people of the nations supporting Ukraine continue to let this go on? Unless those supporting Ukraine do so with their own bodies, the end result of the conflict is guaranteed, all we're doing now is prolonging the pain.
- danielrpa 4y ago
  The allies could have backed down in WWII, handing major concessions to the Axis. Would we be better off today? Backing down to a bully will only encourage and empower it further. The current situation in Europe is status quo in poor countries, so the world isn't ending...
- tomjen3 4y ago
  Because we fucking hat it with Russia. Yeah we could back down and then maybe they will send us some gas and then what? What will be their demand next time? Yes we need to deal with this crisis by constructing enough nuclear power plants that we never need power again, and that means overriding all rules about planning permissions. This means that energy prices will be higher than before this winter, and then lower and green forever after. Technically Europe still needs to import Uranium, but we can get that from anywhere and a single ship or aircraft can transport enough for it never to be an issue.
- Pearse 4y ago
  I'm not in the UK but we are having a similar cost of living crisis in Ireland. I'm happy to pay the price of solidarity with Ukraine. I work with both Russian and Ukrainian people and none of them want this war. People are dieing and being forced out of their homes. I know this is happing everywhere but I would like to support these people: 1 because I know people in that country and 2 because like Britain in the second world war they are fighting for some form of a fair democracy. If that means I have to buy cheaper food and not have heating.. It's a small price to pay compared to what my friends are going through.
  - maccard 4y ago
    > I'm not in the UK but we are having a similar cost of living crisis in Ireland. I'm irish, living in the UK, and the cost of living crisis is significantly worse here. The standard rate that Electric ireland are about to increase to for both gas and electricity is lower than I paid last winter, and we're about to see our bills almost double from that (and do the same again in 6 months). My bill in october will be almost 4x the cost of what it was last september.
- KaiserPro 4y ago
  because if we had not done this, ukraine would have been obliterated, and russia would have been knocking at the EU's door. having war on our doorstep, and being called up because poland is being attacked is not what I want. The Inflation issues we have are partly because of russia, partly because we have a stupidly designed pricing structure. From my understanding we only import about 20% of our gas. However global gas price sets the entire uk's electricity price. Gas sometimes accounts for 50% -60% of the UK's electricity generation, but that shouldn't result in a 1000% rise in costs.
- 323 4y ago
  > yet they are not willing to negotiate Negociate what? Russia has stated multiple times that the only negotiation offer they accept is the complete surrender of Ukraine: > Russia vowed on Tuesday its assault on Ukraine would continue until Kyiv surrenders https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20220628-russia-demands-ukraine-surrender-as-g7-vows-to-make-moscow-pay https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20220628-russia-demand...
- moomin 4y ago
  Surprisingly, the U.K. isn’t nearly as affected as mainland Europe by Russia’s antics. But sky-high crude prices, regulatory capture and lack of storage (government neglect, again) mean that, shockingly, U.K. is going to suffer worse than Germany. Blaming this all of this on the UK’s stance wrt Russia is mostly a move by politicians who don’t want to admit how badly they’ve messed regular governing up.
- cm2187 4y ago
  The sanctions were spearheaded by europe, the US followed, initially reluctantly (Biden wanted some symbolic sanctions like freezing a few bank accounts and banning a handful of people from travel). It is european countries (and EU countries), that Putin claims are in Russia' sphere of influence (Baltic states, Poland, czech republic, etc). That stated nostalgia for lost power was easy to dismiss until 2022 (and I dismissed it). But the Ukraine invasion made it clear they cannot be dismissed anymore and if Ukraine becomes a military success for Russia, the next provocations and aggressions will target EU countries. So no, this is not something imposed by the US, it is a policy initiated by europe, for europe's benefit, and with the support of the US.
- justin66 4y ago
  > Okay this is a genuine question but why are the G7 not backing down when clearly their populations are the ones suffering? The G7 includes the EU as a non enumerated member. The EU, which does not include Ukraine but does include the Baltics and some Nordic states which fear for their own safety. Not to mention how intertwined the G7’s interests are with NATO. There is a really derpy “if you ignore all the killing that’s happening in this war, it would totally make financial sense to end the sanctions” vibe to some of these comments. The people who are at risk have a say as well.
- matthewmacleod 4y ago
  I think worth pointing out that while this is a Europe-wide issue, the challenges faced by the UK are exacerbated by a lot of other dumb shit going on - the UK is way less reliant on Russian gas than some other countries. Aside from the obvious Brexit hangover, there is now a messy and confused series of economic policies in place and no clear leadership with regard to policies that could help tackle this issue. The quite literal absence of a functioning executive makes it difficult to take action, and even after a new PM is in place on Monday it’s not clear what’s going to happen. At least for my part, I’m entirely happy with a massive tax increase on myself and people like me if it helps to ensure that tanks don’t roll into Romania, and my neighbours don’t starve or freeze to death over winter. The “average citizen” in any case is probably more compassionate than you give them credit for.
- checkyoursudo 4y ago
  I as an "average citizen" living in Germany care more about an idealistic notion of standing up to bullies than living in complete comfort. I don't know about the UK, but here nobody is going to have problems putting food on the table or freezing to death this winter. [Edit: I should say, no more problems than we already have.] My small discomfort at higher heating prices pales in comparison to the death and destruction that Russia is inflicting on Ukraine. If my small discomfort can stop that at all sooner then I am happy to face some discomfort. I don't understand how people fail to see that our standing up for Ukraine and putting an end to this Russian war as soon as possible is also purely in our self-interests. Russia rampaging through all of Ukraine, and then Georgia, and then Kazakhstan, and then Uzbekistan, and then Finland, and then ..., and then maybe on to NATO (Poland? Balitics?) -- this is not in our interests. "Oh, but Russia won't do that!" Yeah, that's what all the experts said about Ukraine also. No, sorry, Russia must be stopped now because Russia can no longer be trusted at all.
  - MrRiddle 4y ago
    Not sure what experts you are talking about, Russia itself said Ukraine is no more if it continues to pursue NATO membership. They were saying that since orange revolution in 2004. Also, looks like your neighbors don’t share your opinion. https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-prague-european-union-d47093ce6a14354f22d68383722144a3 https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-prague-european-un...
- dangerface 4y ago
  > The average citizen cares about their energy bill and putting food on the table more than some idealistic notion of standing up to bullies. If that where true we would all be Nazi.
- ShivShankaran 4y ago
  Remember when Victoria nuland said " fuck the EU" to Ukrainian authorities? Remember when Trump imposed duties on EU? Yeah the rich of US doesn't care.. Sorry
sprkwd 4y ago
More UK cost of living information: https://www.theguardian.com/business/cost-of-living-crisis https://www.theguardian.com/business/cost-of-living-crisis
Bostonian 4y ago
Due in part to "net zero" CO2 emissions policies.
- z9znz 4y ago
  Are you sure it wasn't because of all the trouble caused by people on bicycles?
- sofixa 4y ago
  Source? Also, blaming that while there's a pandemic and war impacting the supply of the most critical raw materials (energy and foodstuffs) is a curious (being very generous here) choice.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- moomin 4y ago
  Gotta love the “in part”. Let’s be clear, the “part” we’re talking about is negligible.
- Bostonian 4y ago
  Here is part of a WSJ editorial backing up my statement. https://www.wsj.com/articles/net-zero-bankrupts-britain-household-energy-bills-climate-11661523856 https://www.wsj.com/articles/net-zero-bankrupts-britain-hous... Net-Zero Emissions Policy Bankrupts Britain And it could do the same to the U.S., which is following a similar path. Updated Aug. 26, 2022 7:01 pm ET Americans who fancy themselves net-zero climate advocates might want to take a look at Britain for a guide to the future. Household energy bills were expected to rise 40% this autumn, but on Friday the government regulator announced they’ll leap 80% in a single bound. This boost follows a 54% rise in April and brings the average household’s annual bill to £3,549 ($4,208). The median household income is £31,400, which gives a sense of the growing proportion of each household’s budget that will go toward central heating, cooking and keeping the lights on. For the ruling Tories, this is a political calamity. And that’s merely what households will spend directly on energy. Britain is also in the grip of an energy-price crisis for businesses, whose rates aren’t subject to a cap. Some small businesses report they can’t get any utility to supply them without paying a steep deposit up front, because energy companies are concerned that high prices will push more small firms into insolvency. Lower-income households in particular will bear the brunt of this as prices for goods and services skyrocket and companies lay off employees. If you think this couldn’t happen in America, think again. The underlying cause of Britain’s energy misery is its fixation with climate goals, especially the ambition to achieve net-zero CO2 emissions by 2050. To meet that goal Britain has grown hostile to domestic energy exploration, banning shale-gas fracking and slapping windfall-profits taxes on North Sea oil and gas producers that will deter investment. Russia’s invasion of Ukraine has hurt, but the U.K.’s policies made its citizens vulnerable to such a global shock. The U.K. is belatedly building new nuclear plants, but those will take years to come online. Unreliable wind and solar raise the cost the electric grid must pay to balance supply and demand when the winds are still and the sun is behind clouds, and more than 80% of English households rely on gas rather than electricity to heat their homes. All of this drives up the cost of supplying power, and then the government adds about £153 in green levies and a 5% consumption tax directly on household bills.
moomin 4y ago
Honestly, this article understates the situation. Everyone is bricking it. I go to the barbers, the barber wants to talk about it. I go to get a burger, the server wants to talk about it. A really large chunk of the country is doing calculations and really not liking the results. Small businesses and charities are already receiving their new contract quotes and deciding to shut down. And our next Prime Minister shows exactly no sign of caring about or even understanding the seriousness of the situation.
- bArray 4y ago
  > Honestly, this article understates the situation. Everyone is bricking it. Yeah, it's really quite bad. I'm yet to talk to anybody who isn't worried about this, from low class to upper class. > Small businesses and charities are already receiving their new contract quotes and deciding to shut down. Sadly we will now lose many historic institutions that COVID lockdowns didn't quite manage to kill off. Some pubs for example have been around for hundreds of years. > And our next Prime Minister shows exactly no sign of caring about or even understanding the seriousness of the situation. I believe I saw Boris _finally_ committing to building new nuclear power stations, but this is maybe 10 years too late. Nuclear power was such an obvious quick win in terms of energy security, green climate action and energy costs. I hope the UK is able to keep its remaining reactors online a while longer until new ones can be phased in.
Gravityloss 4y ago
Britain has for a long time neglected energy efficiency improvements and investment in renewable energy. The houses are the worst insulated in Europe [1]. UK has extremely good wind resources, very mild winters, bearable summers, a lot of capital available, a generally organized society. As a starting point, from energy point of view, it is extremely advantageous compared to say Finland or Germany. Now vote someone who will act on it. Insulate the houses, build the windmills and nuclear plants. Stop complaining. 1: https://jannemkorhonen.files.wordpress.com/2022/08/image.png https://jannemkorhonen.files.wordpress.com/2022/08/image.png
- bArray 4y ago
  > Britain has for a long time neglected energy efficiency improvements and investment in renewable energy. Like the EU nations, the UK was designed and built to use energy in what seemed like a sustainable way. Obviously every Country in Europe is now reconsidering what to make reductions. If anything this is quite promising for the UK's winter, as there are so many quick-win improvements to be made (assuming we can get sufficient supplies of insulation). > The houses are the worst insulated in Europe [1]. The majority of the UK doesn't get too much below zero, spending a brief time at -10 degrees. Places in Europe can reach -30/-40 for a sustained period. We're also talking about houses that are quite old and hard to upgrade (if not impossible due to restrictions).
  - Gravityloss 4y ago
    Did you look at the link? Spain is better insulated than Britain. That it gets to -40 in Lapland is a red herring. And if the climate is so mild that insulation is not needed, what's the problem then... Having said that, all countries would benefit from better building.
bArray 4y ago
I was thinking about this just the other day: 0. Secure food chains _now_. Nobody is talking about this yet. Droughts + fertilizer shortage + energy crisis + inflation = disaster. Name a single Country that got a good harvest this year. Personally I have begun to slowly store long-storage food items to get way ahead of panic buying. 1. Invest in nuclear power heavily. It's okay saying "people should change their lives to be more sustainable" - without ever giving details about exactly how that is supposed to be done. The people saying such things have _zero_ idea about how their Country actually works. 2. Reduce or remove green levies and stop subsidizing green energy initiatives. It is simply false to state that green energy is cheaper when it is heavily subsidized - if it was so affordable and cheap it should be able to fund itself, but it can't. If it needs growth and is such an amazing investment, allow for private investment. If the UK tax payer _must_ subsidize it, we want part ownership of it so we can set prices. 3. Stop pushing for electric cars when we don't have the energy infrastructure or raw materials. Fuel cars are likely to stay until 2050 or so. Hybrids also make more sense as the 'cheap' energy is likely to fluctuate. 4. If a war were to break out, it will likely happen very soon. Countries are on their back-foot, governments need a distraction and tensions easily rise over limited resources in contended locations. We need immediate preparations for defense and offense.
- DFHippie 4y ago
  It's cold. Burn the house down now!
- bryanlarsen 4y ago
  1. It takes 20 years to build a nuke plant, 2 years to do wind and 6 months to do solar. Solving the problem 20 years from now is not solving the problem. 2. In case you haven't noticed, the wind subsidies are now negative. Wind subsidizes natgas, not the other way around. 3. If the lithium supply gets cut off, existing EV's don't stop working. If gasoline gets cut off, gasoline cars are stranded. EV's are crucial for self sufficiency.
  - orwin 4y ago
    20 year to build a nuke plant? You'll want to learn about the "plan Messmer". Or 6 years to build 13 900 MW reactors. When they only had experience with UNGG tech and wanted to use PWR. I think in the end, 55 reactors were build in 12 years, replacing all coal and gas plants except for 2. I mean, 50 000 MW in 12 years, basically. For today equivalent of 50 billions USD.

34 points by vic-traill 4y ago

Okay this is a genuine question but why are the G7 not backing down when clearly their populations are the ones suffering? It feels strange to me living in the UK that the sanctions have been spearheaded by the US when they are mostly shielded from Russia. Whereas for European countries, it is obvious that they are dependent on Russian gas and yet they are not willing to negotiate. The average citizen cares about their energy bill and putting food on the table more than some idealistic notion of standing up to bullies.

Razengan 4y ago
> when clearly their populations are the ones suffering? Their populations, not their leaders.
ChuckNorris89 4y ago
Because energy companies, even European ones, are making bank. So are asset owners. Every crisis is someone's opportunity to make money off other peoples' loss. As long as their assets are safe and keep going up, nobody cares about CoL going up. Well, at least until riots happen and political extremism grows to new heights. Come on France, 'do yer thang' (riots), we'll follow suit.
- sofixa 4y ago
  > Come on France, 'do yer thang' (riots), we'll follow suit. Somewhat unlikely for now. The government is shielding the population from the worst, as they should, by capping electricity prices and with grants/loans to those worst impacted. The average Brit is being hit much worse than the average French.
  - cm2187 4y ago
    You are not shielding the country. By printing money to pay for high energy cost, you maintain demand high when there is scarcity (instead of letting the demand adjust, people using heating as little as they can, companies finding substitute for gas, etc), that's a recipe for making the problem worse.
    - Jochim 4y ago
      The free market excuses work for luxury goods but they don't work for necessities. Prices have already reached the point where a large percentage of the population will not be able to afford any form of heating whatsoever over the winter. As a country we already know that a non-insignificant number of people develop serious illness or die because of a lack of heating. Making the choice to take no action further compounds the issue as you deepen the coming recession and create more people who cannot pay to heat their homes or keep the economy going. The answer to a crisis like this is price caps, investment in alternatives, taxes on profits, and if necessary targeted restrictions on energy use. There is absolutely nothing wrong with covering a situation like this with debt in order to keep people and the economy alive.
      - cm2187 4y ago
        They will afford heating, only they will heat just the room they need at the temperature they need rather than heating to comfort. And keep in mind, if demand goes down, prices go down.
        lostlogin 4y ago
        Will everyone afford heating? The most painful point hasn’t been reached yet and some reports suggest it’s got a long way to go (tripling by the end of winter). https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-08-20/price-cap-seen-to-breach-6-000-for-first-time-in-grim-new-forecast https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-08-20/price-cap...
        sofixa 4y ago
unpopularopp 4y ago
>the sanctions have been spearheaded by the US when they are mostly shielded from Russia. Whereas for European countries, it is obvious that they are dependent on Russian gas and yet they are not willing to negotiate. This was my problem with the Syria war too. US: We want war! Europe you will get refugees, good luck.
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  >US: We want war! Europe you will get refugees, good luck. Europe could have also have pursued a strong military, independent of US protection, energy independence from Russia and a strong domestic tech sector allowing it to stick it up and sanction US and Russian warmongering. But as it stands, it has to 'shut up and take it'.
  - ShivShankaran 4y ago
    Eu is addicted to cheap Russian gas. Replacing with anything other than renewable will drive energy prices higher. The second largest steel mill in the world closed today in Germany.
    - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
      >The second largest steel mill in the world closed today in Germany. "Oh look, if it isn't the consequences of my own actions." - Germany, 2022 (hopefully)
Jochim 4y ago
Also in the UK. Personally I'm sick of seeing our government cosy up to authoritarian regimes because they have something we happen to want. In the UK we're particularly unlucky in that the people currently in charge don't really care if the poor in our society freeze or starve as they've stated so astutely in the recent leadership contest. The rest of the G7 at least seem prepared to shield their population as much as possible through planning and government intervention, which is probably why they seem much less concerned. On top of that, the answer to the pain of the current sanctions isn't to go back to relying on Russian gas. It's to pump covid levels of investment into alternatives that don't require us to prop up quasi-dictatorships in order to keep the lights on.
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  >alternatives that don't require us to prop up quasi-dictatorships in order to keep the lights on But how? The entire economy of the city of London is based on being the word's money laundering capital, vacation playground and best buddy for Russian Oligarchs, Saudi Royals, CCP big shots and other wealthy dictators and warlords. It's Thacher's legacy.
  - shapefrog 4y ago
    > entire economy of the city of London Is pretty much the entire economy of the UK. Yes Thatcher had her part to play, but election after election after referendum, the will of the people is more of the same Great British exceptionalism.
    - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
      People get what they vote for. What's the problem?
      - shapefrog 4y ago
        I am extremely comfortable with people having to suffer the obvious consequences of their choicse, it only bothers me hearing them moan about it.
simonh 4y ago
6 out of 10 Britons support sanctions against Russia.
- Ekaros 4y ago
  I then genuinely hope that the same 6 out of 10 are happy to pay their increased energy bill.
  - sokoloff 4y ago
    It probably makes sense to modify that from “happy” to “willing”.
  - lostlogin 4y ago
    It didn’t have to be that way though. It probably does now, but reducing dependence on Russia would have been wise in hindsight. It doesn’t take a genius to see that depending on Russia is a bad idea.
    - simonh 4y ago
      For sure, but that boat has sailed. Right now cutting them off as quickly as possible is the right thing to do.
  - simonh 4y ago
    Not everyone cares only about themselves. Some things are worth a degree of sacrifice.
ruune 4y ago
Backing down means handing the victory to Russia, which is politically costly in the short term and probably not financially cheaper in the long term. Whether europe wants it or not, they are involved in a war, and you can't just back down in a war without consequences. You could also argue that the current prices are just a teaser of what's coming anyway so more incentive to innovate now instead of later. Very harsh and not completely true, but I think there's a little bit of truth to it
- ShivShankaran 4y ago
  Russia is exporting more oil and gas to china and India and in long run will export to Africa as well in addition to building 19 nuclear reactors across the world from Egypt to Argentina. China is reselling Russian lng while India is reselling Russian oil as blend. True intelligence is backing down now but stopping all Russian imports gradually over next 10 years
  - mupuff1234 4y ago
    So you think the west should've just let Russia take over Ukraine? Even without the sanctions Russia would've still most likely disrupted gas & oil supply as long as the west supplied Ukraine's army.
    - ShivShankaran 4y ago
  - 323 4y ago
    China increased US gas imports to record levels, after the war started. US is now the biggest exporter of LNG gas to China: https://www.spglobal.com/commodityinsights/en/market-insights/latest-news/oil/062920-china-data-lpg-imports-from-us-surge-to-record-high-733385-mt-in-may https://www.spglobal.com/commodityinsights/en/market-insight...
    - ShivShankaran 4y ago
podviaznikov 4y ago
> The average citizen cares about their energy bill and putting food on the table more than some idealistic notion of standing up to bullies. this one is based on what? on some sources or own projections?
jibbit 4y ago
You’ve guessed incorrectly how much the average citizen cares about standing up to Putin. Most people believe that the consequences of not standing up to him would be far worse
- ShivShankaran 4y ago
  Impressive how much propaganda can achieve. The average citizen also wanted to stand up to Saddam, Gaddafi, xi , Al Assad before they take over the world
  - DFHippie 4y ago
    > Impressive how much propaganda can achieve. Alanis Morissette missed a lyric.
  - MrRiddle 4y ago
    Interesting how people care about Ukraine where Russian actions are arguably very localized to military targets but no one is concerned for over 500k dead in Iraq and their current civil war, all caused by certain NATO countries. Half of the ME is on fire, but no one care. Just a bunch of hypocrites.
    - lostlogin 4y ago
      > Russian actions are arguably very localized to military targets I don’t think anyone believes this. Your comment is whataboutism at a grand level. It is possible to oppose slaughtering people wherever they live.
      - MrRiddle 4y ago
        Yet people didn’t oppose when their own governments were slaughtering people. Countries ruined for decades if not centuries. Whataboutism would be if I justified Russian actions, but I’m not doing that. I’m looking at the western butchers pointing fingers at Russian butchers. Hypocrite.
mellavora 4y ago
Counter-argument. Why are the G7 not increasing the aid to Ukraine, to more quickly end the war and force Russia to settle?
- 323 4y ago
  Because G7 is afraid of Russia splintering into 10 nuclear republics. This is well covered by various analysts. So G7 wants a soft "landing".
- ShivShankaran 4y ago
  Exactly.. Why not amp up the war against the super power with most nukes in the world. I wonder what would happen if the real civilized world started aiding freedom fighters against UK in Iraq, Syria and Libya? Russia will probably start doing that
  - sofixa 4y ago
    This false equivalency is honestly revolting. Anyways, Putin is, hopefully, not mad enough to step into nuclear territory. We'll see how he fares when he's cornered in (when Ukraine's counteroffensives get too serious to hide from the Russian public and he has to mobilise to hope to win, or back down.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - dmytrish 4y ago
    Do I understand correctly that what you propose is making this derailed "super"power richer and more connected to the countries it's been trying to subvert for fifteen years?
- Mountain_Skies 4y ago
  The G7, NATO and others have showered Ukraine with more money than it will ever be able to spend on military assets (which they are also being showered with). Ukraine needs experienced solders and expertise in the conflict zone. NATO, G7, etc. are unwilling to make that escalation so they'll keep on throwing more money and resources into a black hole to appear to be doing something when they're not willing to do the one thing that must be done if they want Ukraine to prevail. The only question is how long will the people of the nations supporting Ukraine continue to let this go on? Unless those supporting Ukraine do so with their own bodies, the end result of the conflict is guaranteed, all we're doing now is prolonging the pain.
danielrpa 4y ago
The allies could have backed down in WWII, handing major concessions to the Axis. Would we be better off today? Backing down to a bully will only encourage and empower it further. The current situation in Europe is status quo in poor countries, so the world isn't ending...
tomjen3 4y ago
Because we fucking hat it with Russia. Yeah we could back down and then maybe they will send us some gas and then what? What will be their demand next time? Yes we need to deal with this crisis by constructing enough nuclear power plants that we never need power again, and that means overriding all rules about planning permissions. This means that energy prices will be higher than before this winter, and then lower and green forever after. Technically Europe still needs to import Uranium, but we can get that from anywhere and a single ship or aircraft can transport enough for it never to be an issue.
Pearse 4y ago
I'm not in the UK but we are having a similar cost of living crisis in Ireland. I'm happy to pay the price of solidarity with Ukraine. I work with both Russian and Ukrainian people and none of them want this war. People are dieing and being forced out of their homes. I know this is happing everywhere but I would like to support these people: 1 because I know people in that country and 2 because like Britain in the second world war they are fighting for some form of a fair democracy. If that means I have to buy cheaper food and not have heating.. It's a small price to pay compared to what my friends are going through.
- maccard 4y ago
  > I'm not in the UK but we are having a similar cost of living crisis in Ireland. I'm irish, living in the UK, and the cost of living crisis is significantly worse here. The standard rate that Electric ireland are about to increase to for both gas and electricity is lower than I paid last winter, and we're about to see our bills almost double from that (and do the same again in 6 months). My bill in october will be almost 4x the cost of what it was last september.
KaiserPro 4y ago
because if we had not done this, ukraine would have been obliterated, and russia would have been knocking at the EU's door. having war on our doorstep, and being called up because poland is being attacked is not what I want. The Inflation issues we have are partly because of russia, partly because we have a stupidly designed pricing structure. From my understanding we only import about 20% of our gas. However global gas price sets the entire uk's electricity price. Gas sometimes accounts for 50% -60% of the UK's electricity generation, but that shouldn't result in a 1000% rise in costs.
323 4y ago
> yet they are not willing to negotiate Negociate what? Russia has stated multiple times that the only negotiation offer they accept is the complete surrender of Ukraine: > Russia vowed on Tuesday its assault on Ukraine would continue until Kyiv surrenders https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20220628-russia-demands-ukraine-surrender-as-g7-vows-to-make-moscow-pay https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20220628-russia-demand...
moomin 4y ago
Surprisingly, the U.K. isn’t nearly as affected as mainland Europe by Russia’s antics. But sky-high crude prices, regulatory capture and lack of storage (government neglect, again) mean that, shockingly, U.K. is going to suffer worse than Germany. Blaming this all of this on the UK’s stance wrt Russia is mostly a move by politicians who don’t want to admit how badly they’ve messed regular governing up.
cm2187 4y ago
The sanctions were spearheaded by europe, the US followed, initially reluctantly (Biden wanted some symbolic sanctions like freezing a few bank accounts and banning a handful of people from travel). It is european countries (and EU countries), that Putin claims are in Russia' sphere of influence (Baltic states, Poland, czech republic, etc). That stated nostalgia for lost power was easy to dismiss until 2022 (and I dismissed it). But the Ukraine invasion made it clear they cannot be dismissed anymore and if Ukraine becomes a military success for Russia, the next provocations and aggressions will target EU countries. So no, this is not something imposed by the US, it is a policy initiated by europe, for europe's benefit, and with the support of the US.
justin66 4y ago
> Okay this is a genuine question but why are the G7 not backing down when clearly their populations are the ones suffering? The G7 includes the EU as a non enumerated member. The EU, which does not include Ukraine but does include the Baltics and some Nordic states which fear for their own safety. Not to mention how intertwined the G7’s interests are with NATO. There is a really derpy “if you ignore all the killing that’s happening in this war, it would totally make financial sense to end the sanctions” vibe to some of these comments. The people who are at risk have a say as well.
matthewmacleod 4y ago
I think worth pointing out that while this is a Europe-wide issue, the challenges faced by the UK are exacerbated by a lot of other dumb shit going on - the UK is way less reliant on Russian gas than some other countries. Aside from the obvious Brexit hangover, there is now a messy and confused series of economic policies in place and no clear leadership with regard to policies that could help tackle this issue. The quite literal absence of a functioning executive makes it difficult to take action, and even after a new PM is in place on Monday it’s not clear what’s going to happen. At least for my part, I’m entirely happy with a massive tax increase on myself and people like me if it helps to ensure that tanks don’t roll into Romania, and my neighbours don’t starve or freeze to death over winter. The “average citizen” in any case is probably more compassionate than you give them credit for.
checkyoursudo 4y ago
I as an "average citizen" living in Germany care more about an idealistic notion of standing up to bullies than living in complete comfort. I don't know about the UK, but here nobody is going to have problems putting food on the table or freezing to death this winter. [Edit: I should say, no more problems than we already have.] My small discomfort at higher heating prices pales in comparison to the death and destruction that Russia is inflicting on Ukraine. If my small discomfort can stop that at all sooner then I am happy to face some discomfort. I don't understand how people fail to see that our standing up for Ukraine and putting an end to this Russian war as soon as possible is also purely in our self-interests. Russia rampaging through all of Ukraine, and then Georgia, and then Kazakhstan, and then Uzbekistan, and then Finland, and then ..., and then maybe on to NATO (Poland? Balitics?) -- this is not in our interests. "Oh, but Russia won't do that!" Yeah, that's what all the experts said about Ukraine also. No, sorry, Russia must be stopped now because Russia can no longer be trusted at all.
- MrRiddle 4y ago
  Not sure what experts you are talking about, Russia itself said Ukraine is no more if it continues to pursue NATO membership. They were saying that since orange revolution in 2004. Also, looks like your neighbors don’t share your opinion. https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-prague-european-union-d47093ce6a14354f22d68383722144a3 https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-prague-european-un...
dangerface 4y ago
> The average citizen cares about their energy bill and putting food on the table more than some idealistic notion of standing up to bullies. If that where true we would all be Nazi.
ShivShankaran 4y ago
Remember when Victoria nuland said " fuck the EU" to Ukrainian authorities? Remember when Trump imposed duties on EU? Yeah the rich of US doesn't care.. Sorry

sprkwd 4y ago

More UK cost of living information: https://www.theguardian.com/business/cost-of-living-crisis https://www.theguardian.com/business/cost-of-living-crisis

Bostonian 4y ago

Due in part to "net zero" CO2 emissions policies.

z9znz 4y ago
Are you sure it wasn't because of all the trouble caused by people on bicycles?
sofixa 4y ago
Source? Also, blaming that while there's a pandemic and war impacting the supply of the most critical raw materials (energy and foodstuffs) is a curious (being very generous here) choice.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
moomin 4y ago
Gotta love the “in part”. Let’s be clear, the “part” we’re talking about is negligible.
Bostonian 4y ago
Here is part of a WSJ editorial backing up my statement. https://www.wsj.com/articles/net-zero-bankrupts-britain-household-energy-bills-climate-11661523856 https://www.wsj.com/articles/net-zero-bankrupts-britain-hous... Net-Zero Emissions Policy Bankrupts Britain And it could do the same to the U.S., which is following a similar path. Updated Aug. 26, 2022 7:01 pm ET Americans who fancy themselves net-zero climate advocates might want to take a look at Britain for a guide to the future. Household energy bills were expected to rise 40% this autumn, but on Friday the government regulator announced they’ll leap 80% in a single bound. This boost follows a 54% rise in April and brings the average household’s annual bill to £3,549 ($4,208). The median household income is £31,400, which gives a sense of the growing proportion of each household’s budget that will go toward central heating, cooking and keeping the lights on. For the ruling Tories, this is a political calamity. And that’s merely what households will spend directly on energy. Britain is also in the grip of an energy-price crisis for businesses, whose rates aren’t subject to a cap. Some small businesses report they can’t get any utility to supply them without paying a steep deposit up front, because energy companies are concerned that high prices will push more small firms into insolvency. Lower-income households in particular will bear the brunt of this as prices for goods and services skyrocket and companies lay off employees. If you think this couldn’t happen in America, think again. The underlying cause of Britain’s energy misery is its fixation with climate goals, especially the ambition to achieve net-zero CO2 emissions by 2050. To meet that goal Britain has grown hostile to domestic energy exploration, banning shale-gas fracking and slapping windfall-profits taxes on North Sea oil and gas producers that will deter investment. Russia’s invasion of Ukraine has hurt, but the U.K.’s policies made its citizens vulnerable to such a global shock. The U.K. is belatedly building new nuclear plants, but those will take years to come online. Unreliable wind and solar raise the cost the electric grid must pay to balance supply and demand when the winds are still and the sun is behind clouds, and more than 80% of English households rely on gas rather than electricity to heat their homes. All of this drives up the cost of supplying power, and then the government adds about £153 in green levies and a 5% consumption tax directly on household bills.

moomin 4y ago

Honestly, this article understates the situation. Everyone is bricking it. I go to the barbers, the barber wants to talk about it. I go to get a burger, the server wants to talk about it. A really large chunk of the country is doing calculations and really not liking the results. Small businesses and charities are already receiving their new contract quotes and deciding to shut down. And our next Prime Minister shows exactly no sign of caring about or even understanding the seriousness of the situation.

bArray 4y ago
> Honestly, this article understates the situation. Everyone is bricking it. Yeah, it's really quite bad. I'm yet to talk to anybody who isn't worried about this, from low class to upper class. > Small businesses and charities are already receiving their new contract quotes and deciding to shut down. Sadly we will now lose many historic institutions that COVID lockdowns didn't quite manage to kill off. Some pubs for example have been around for hundreds of years. > And our next Prime Minister shows exactly no sign of caring about or even understanding the seriousness of the situation. I believe I saw Boris _finally_ committing to building new nuclear power stations, but this is maybe 10 years too late. Nuclear power was such an obvious quick win in terms of energy security, green climate action and energy costs. I hope the UK is able to keep its remaining reactors online a while longer until new ones can be phased in.

Gravityloss 4y ago

Britain has for a long time neglected energy efficiency improvements and investment in renewable energy. The houses are the worst insulated in Europe [1]. UK has extremely good wind resources, very mild winters, bearable summers, a lot of capital available, a generally organized society. As a starting point, from energy point of view, it is extremely advantageous compared to say Finland or Germany. Now vote someone who will act on it. Insulate the houses, build the windmills and nuclear plants. Stop complaining. 1: https://jannemkorhonen.files.wordpress.com/2022/08/image.png https://jannemkorhonen.files.wordpress.com/2022/08/image.png

bArray 4y ago
> Britain has for a long time neglected energy efficiency improvements and investment in renewable energy. Like the EU nations, the UK was designed and built to use energy in what seemed like a sustainable way. Obviously every Country in Europe is now reconsidering what to make reductions. If anything this is quite promising for the UK's winter, as there are so many quick-win improvements to be made (assuming we can get sufficient supplies of insulation). > The houses are the worst insulated in Europe [1]. The majority of the UK doesn't get too much below zero, spending a brief time at -10 degrees. Places in Europe can reach -30/-40 for a sustained period. We're also talking about houses that are quite old and hard to upgrade (if not impossible due to restrictions).
- Gravityloss 4y ago
  Did you look at the link? Spain is better insulated than Britain. That it gets to -40 in Lapland is a red herring. And if the climate is so mild that insulation is not needed, what's the problem then... Having said that, all countries would benefit from better building.

bArray 4y ago

I was thinking about this just the other day: 0. Secure food chains _now_. Nobody is talking about this yet. Droughts + fertilizer shortage + energy crisis + inflation = disaster. Name a single Country that got a good harvest this year. Personally I have begun to slowly store long-storage food items to get way ahead of panic buying. 1. Invest in nuclear power heavily. It's okay saying "people should change their lives to be more sustainable" - without ever giving details about exactly how that is supposed to be done. The people saying such things have _zero_ idea about how their Country actually works. 2. Reduce or remove green levies and stop subsidizing green energy initiatives. It is simply false to state that green energy is cheaper when it is heavily subsidized - if it was so affordable and cheap it should be able to fund itself, but it can't. If it needs growth and is such an amazing investment, allow for private investment. If the UK tax payer _must_ subsidize it, we want part ownership of it so we can set prices. 3. Stop pushing for electric cars when we don't have the energy infrastructure or raw materials. Fuel cars are likely to stay until 2050 or so. Hybrids also make more sense as the 'cheap' energy is likely to fluctuate. 4. If a war were to break out, it will likely happen very soon. Countries are on their back-foot, governments need a distraction and tensions easily rise over limited resources in contended locations. We need immediate preparations for defense and offense.

DFHippie 4y ago
It's cold. Burn the house down now!
bryanlarsen 4y ago
1. It takes 20 years to build a nuke plant, 2 years to do wind and 6 months to do solar. Solving the problem 20 years from now is not solving the problem. 2. In case you haven't noticed, the wind subsidies are now negative. Wind subsidizes natgas, not the other way around. 3. If the lithium supply gets cut off, existing EV's don't stop working. If gasoline gets cut off, gasoline cars are stranded. EV's are crucial for self sufficiency.
- orwin 4y ago
  20 year to build a nuke plant? You'll want to learn about the "plan Messmer". Or 6 years to build 13 900 MW reactors. When they only had experience with UNGG tech and wanted to use PWR. I think in the end, 55 reactors were build in 12 years, replacing all coal and gas plants except for 2. I mean, 50 000 MW in 12 years, basically. For today equivalent of 50 billions USD.