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These styles of multi-round interviews inspired by the FAANG collective started picking up in Australia before the pandemic, but it got to a point where most of
by PebblesHD 4y ago
These styles of multi-round interviews inspired by the FAANG collective started picking up in Australia before the pandemic, but it got to a point where most of my more talented colleagues and I all agreed it just wasn’t worth the time for the salaries being offered. 4 round interviews for a ‘senior’ developer position on $120k?
When interviewing my own candidates, I use a 1 hour interview mostly focused on approach and personality. We have a probation period to work out if they’ve over-promised, and most of our tech industry is big banks that won’t notice if they waste a few weeks salary trying someone out. Honestly, for the salaries the local market provides, I think 1 interview is fair. Any more and I think we’re wasting peoples time for nothing.
Personally, I’ve dropped out of application processes when they’ve indicated there are multiple rounds, and my salary hasn’t suffered for it relative to my friends who put up with them, so I feel like I’m ahead.
- PretzelPirate 4y agoI don't like having one interview with one interviewer. That can easily result in that interviewer having a bad day or simply being biased and costing someone a job.
- PebblesHD 4y agoAgreed, it can also be uncomfortable for persons not of the same gender as the interviewer, so I always take a second person and try to ensure we always have a mix of men and women scheduled as that other person depending on who we’re interviewing to minimise the single point of me/another manager having a bad day.
- profile53 4y agoEven in a panel or multiple round interview, it usually only takes one no to end the process for the candidate. So I don’t see how this is any worse.
- PebblesHD 4y agoFor one, this one only requires the candidate to provide an hour of their time, which for me is the main reason I personally avoid multi-round interviews.
- groby_b 4y agoThat'd be a problem if there'd be a shortage of interesting jobs. And, speaking as somebody who's seen a 4-digit number of interview packets: The multi-interviewer format is far from flawless, too. The capability of groups of humans to collectively fuck up without ever talking to each other is quite impressive. If you absolutely want to invest more time, at least build a multi-hour interview that has people do their job, in a team environment. Because that's what ultimately will happen. Don't do multiple rounds of CS trivia.
- egorfine 4y agoDepends. For a small company the interviewer might well be the beneficiary of your work and in the end he needs you more than you need him. So a good one won't let his bad day ruin a nice candidate. Also, depends on culture. There are countries where 1:1 interviews with a different gender candidate are okay.
- eastbound 4y agoI’m sorry, what are typical pays for a junior engineer (Say, JS and Java?), a medium and a senior?
- PebblesHD 4y agoDepends which section of the industry you end up in, but in the big banks which are some of the largest java shops, a cadet/intern will end up around $45k, a junior around $55-65k, an ordinary dev around $80-90k, and a senior anywhere from $115-$150k but weighted toward the lower end. Then of course there’s the rest of the buzzword fleet, DevOps engineers are a bit of a premium on those figures, architects the same.
- cgio 4y agoI am seeing interns joining at 90k+ atm and you can extrapolate but on a <45deg angle from there. I even know a junior (<2yr experience) at 140k, not any kind of superstar but lucky I guess. Are you talking Aussie market? Maybe for entrenched big java teams that are reluctant to restructure their compensation for the whole team. I’d advise anyone to look at newer teams that can accommodate market rates easier.
- shoo 4y agoI ran a bunch of interviews over the last couple of years, in some (reasonably rare) cases I saw quite junior candidates with only a year or two experience who scored very strongly on our technical interviews -- not at a senior level but as a solid intermediate level hire. I suspect if that candidate gets a junior or intermediate grade offer for salary may depend quite a bit on how strong their negotiating position is.
- PebblesHD 4y agoYep Australian market. The numbers I’ve talked about above are what I’d classify as ‘normal’, there are of course always exceptions, and I’ve been fortunate enough to exist outside these ranges for most of my career, but ultimately I left the banks a few years ago for better prospects.
- gabeio 4y ago> We have a probation period to work out if they’ve over-promised I'm curious what you mean by over-promised? Unless you only do this for people who don't already have a job, this sounds more toxic than multiple interviews. "Oh yeah we want you to work for us, but quit your old company, we'll try you out for a few weeks and if not we'll go our separate ways" ... but they quit their previous company so it's not as nice as it sounds.
- white_dragon88 4y ago[dead]
- PebblesHD 4y agoValid question. By that I mean if were looking for someone with experience in X, Y, and Z, we’ve had situations where applicants have done enough research to have a conversation about X but not have any practical or troubleshooting experience with it, which we needed. The probation period means we don’t need to grill someone on every aspect of the role, instead we can focus on the absolute core of what we need and specify the rest in the JD, and if someone claims to know it we can safely take their word with minimal risk of committing ourselves if they can’t then pick it up in a few weeks.
- citizenkeen 4y agoIf they said in the interview they’re very comfortable with Vue.js and Postgres, and then you find out after a few weeks that actually they barely know Vue or Postgres, they actually come from a React/SQLite background, they’ve overpromised. Rather than ensuring every bullet point on their resume is factual through six interviews I’ve found it’s better to assume they’re honest and as capable as advertised, interview for personality, and then if they’ve oversold themselves that’s why it’s called a 90 probationary period. I don’t get cranky if someone quits (even with no notice) within 90 days, for any reason. And I’ll let someone go within 90 days, for any (legal, ethical) reason.
- nomel 4y ago> And I’ll let someone go within 90 days, for any (legal, ethical) reason. I think it's a cultural difference. Many companies see firing as a failure to competently hire. Many employees see firing as a sign of instability. In the few startups I've worked at, I saw top talent leave at the first sign of instability/layoffs.
- willio58 4y agoI’m all for probation periods. I think this is where the industry should go. Before I got hired at my current job, I think I went through around 20 hours of total interviews at several companies. I got to the final round three times for three separate companies, but they always found a reason to say no at the end. At my current company, I’m thriving and people constantly tell me so. It really makes me wonder if those other companies had just given me a chance, how much I would’ve thrived there. Really just a waste of time for everyone in the end.
- therealdrag0 4y agoThe industry is trying to optimize for avoiding opposite. How many more hours wasted for a candidate that is sub-par? 20 hours? That’s not even a single probation period. Must be hundreds of hours spent per candidate, and I can easily imagine 5 subpar candidates in a row. A colossal waste of time. Honestly we also have a senior contractor on my who we only did 1 or 2 60 min basic screens for and they’re a huge disappointment and we’ve been dealing with them for a year I guess because they’re not quite bad enough to fire immediately. I bet a full panel would not have accepted them.
- wiseowise 4y agoWait, you say waste everyone’s time and advocate for probation period? Are you serious right now?
- uraura 4y agoIn the old day, salary may be increased after probation if the performance is better than expected. I don't know why this practice fades out in my country.
- technick 4y ago> We have a probation period to work out if they’ve over-promised That's what contracting is for and I tell everybody to turn down any position that starts as a "contractor". Commit or GTFO, stop wasting peoples time.
- PebblesHD 4y agoThat’s just not the case in the Australian market. Contractors generally receive a higher rate of pay in exchange for an ongoing risk that they won’t be renewed, and are generally used to fill temporary skills gaps for projects and such. Permanent roles are expected to be for ongoing work, but that still leaves a risk of a bad hire as our labour laws are quite strict in terms of how you can terminate a permanent employee, which is what our probation laws cover, as it encourages employers to take risks with potentially under qualified candidates or be less prone to these sorts of 20 hour long 10 stage interviews to eliminate the possibility of a bad hire at the expense of wasting countless hours for even a good hire. On the balance, I prefer the probation approach as it makes life easier for everyone.
- PainfullyNormal 4y agoI disagree. Some of my best jobs were contract to hire positions. The interviews are much more humane because the company isn't so worried about making a hiring mistake. I don't know why, but something about "not renewing a contract" makes HR and the C-Suite at most companies feel a lot safer than "we're firing you" despite the fact they're virtually identical with the standard US at-will employment contract.
- sofixa 4y agoRead OPs comment again, they're in Australia, so you should not apply out of place American logic and labour "laws". Probationary periods are a normal part of employment contracts in most developed/Western countries, with few glaring exceptions like the US, due to the presence of worker protection laws like the fact you can't be fired on a whim, and you can't quit on a whim without notice. So the probationary period leaves both parties the opportunity to quit before it becomes hard to do so.