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Honestly, based on the content of this video and the replies from the prior HN thread, it seems like folks are locked into the belief that the current manufactu

Honestly, based on the content of this video and the replies from the prior HN thread, it seems like folks are locked into the belief that the current manufacturing... "experience" (for lack of a better term) for the workers involved will be lifted from Asia and dropped into the US, but that doesn't actually make any sense to me. Sure, that's how the world knows how to make chips now, but given the varying laws between those two places, and the varying workforce cultures, I think it's safe to say that adaptations will be made to the experience to suit American workers, and those adaptations won't result in meaningful drop offs in quality or execution. As an outsider, it seems pretty clear that the rejection to the industry is more about the cultural mismatch than it is to the actual work needing to be executed. It's just weird to me that people really believe nothing about the job will change, and all of the Asian cultural aspects of the way the job is currently executed would be dropped on American workers with zero adjustments.

Curzel 4y ago
Agree… only issue might be managers and supervisors coming from manufacturing in Asia, they will have to re-learn how to treat workers, but I am hopeful
- bobthepanda 4y ago
  I mean, Toyota and Hyundai make cars in the South, so that particular lesson has been learned before
  - okdood64 4y ago
    Are we lumping up modern Japanese, Korean and Taiwanese culture into one now?
    - triceratops 4y ago
      Surely in terms of work culture they're more similar to each other than any of them are to North American work culture? That's the culture we're all talking about here.
    - coldtea 4y ago
      From a western perspective, everything people say about the Chinese (regarding culture, "bad products", cheap immitations, low quality, and so on) had been said about the Japanese in the 50s to 70s, the Taiwanese 80s to 90s, and the Koreans 90s to 00ss. In all cases it was followed by "they are now better and cheaper than us" and "they take our jobs". Besides, this discussion is not about their respective cultures in general, but about manufacturing styles and working conditions, which are indeed, and even by necessity, similar. Not that they don't also have shared history, interactions and cultural exchanges going back thousands of years. So, yeah, even that would be more like comparing Argentina and Uruguay, or comparing US and Canada, or France and Belgium, and so on, than some unfathomable comparison.
- the_only_law 4y ago
  Wasn’t there a documentary about this or something? I swear I’ve seen this premise play out somewhere.
  - droidist2 4y ago
    Maybe American Factory (2019) or Gung Ho (1986). The latter isn't a documentary though.
    - the_only_law 4y ago
      I think the former was it. I only caught clips of it, but the previous comment basically summed up what I saw.
logicchains 4y ago
>As an outsider, it seems pretty clear that the rejection to the industry is more about the cultural mismatch than it is to the actual work needing to be executed. Look at Intel. It's a western company, but it famously fell behind its competitors due to offering comparatively shit pay and conditions to its staff, so the best people left. The problem is hardware company culture, not Asian company culture. Apple's M1 is an example of what a company that compensates its staff fairly can achieve in hardware. Hardware companies need to get the idea out of their head that they can pay people shit (even when they've got huge monopoly profits like Intel had) and still expect to remain competitive.
- nightski 4y ago
  Isn't M1 manufactured by TSMC? Are you saying TSMC has good pay and treats it's workers great? (it might I honestly don't know).
  - KerrAvon 4y ago
    I'm not taking a position either way, butI believe the poster is talking about the design/integration phase.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- BeetleB 4y ago
  Apple's M1 is an irrelevant comparison. Apple doesn't run a fab. Yes, Intel lost a lot of chip designers, etc, but the submission is about fab related work, which Apple is not involved in.
  - elteto 4y ago
    Seeing how Intel hemorrhaged talent that went straight to their competitors, like Apple, I’d say your distinction is not very relevant.
- deleted 4y ago
moomin 4y ago
Nissan ran a very successful car manufacturing facility for many years in the U.K. This kind of cultural adaptation is exactly how they did it. And it turns out that Geordies were more than capable of executing “The Nissan Way”.
- Apocryphon 4y ago
  Another attempt, where Toyota and GM attempted to build a plant together in Fremont, California: https://www.thisamericanlife.org/561/nummi-2015 https://www.thisamericanlife.org/561/nummi-2015
  - ForHackernews 4y ago
    Not just an attempt. Toyota is the one of largest employers of Americans in the auto industry today: https://www.thomasnet.com/articles/top-suppliers/car-manufacturers-in-usa/ https://www.thomasnet.com/articles/top-suppliers/car-manufac...
    - Apocryphon 4y ago
      True, they have plenty of plants, I just mean it sounds like NUMMI wasn't as successful as it could've been.
      - vxNsr 4y ago
        According to that story which I’ve listened to before, that partnership had a very specific set of goals, once those goals were achieved or deemed unachievable (as the case may be) the purpose of the plant no longer existed so they shut it down.
        buescher 4y ago
        That plant is now the Tesla plant.
      - FunnyBadger 4y ago
pm90 4y ago
Why would it lead to dropoffs in quality? I think u are underestimating how much ingenuity workers of all cultures have when its encouraged. Considering the strength of American research universities, I believe that we might see gains in quality and productivity.
- madrox 4y ago
  I think OP is agreeing with you
dirtyid 4y ago
Since there's several car manufacturing comparisons of American manufacturing adapting to East Asian manufacturing culture, I feel like there's consensus that Japanese built cars still have tighter QC than ones built in North America. Better fit etc, the kind of details in semi and would compound when moving from millimeters to nanometers. My understanding is the commitment for semi technicians / equipment engineers are also much more rigorous, people being practically married to their stations. Hard to say if high-end chip manufacturing processes refined under East Asian sweatshop work culture that's still better than the alternative can be adapated to west. Which is not to say American's can't make chips, perhaps with less efficiency. Which ultimately doesn't matter because semi is being elevated to critical strategic industry and the governemnt's money printer is going to keep US fabs open regardless of how competitive US fabs are.
mensetmanusman 4y ago
It’s true that Americans are less likely to work 16 hours days with low pay. The issue is that the Asian work culture in the tech industry is not sustainable, as seen from their demographic replacement rates. They are burning too hot and the culture will change or they will disappear.
- tuatoru 4y ago
  Yeah, the next decade is going to be interesting to watch. In Taiwan, for instance, the working age population peaked just five years ago[1], so I doubt that the fact that their worker shortage is permanent and going to get worse has yet sunk in the brains of the management and political class in Taiwan. Give it ten years, they might start understanding what's going on. Based on China's and Japan's responses, they'll have no idea what to do. 1. https://population.un.org/wpp/Graphs/Probabilistic/POP/20-64/158 https://population.un.org/wpp/Graphs/Probabilistic/POP/20-64...
  - eru 4y ago
    Taiwan could import labour.
    - Gollapalli 4y ago
      This is not and will never be an effective, sustainable solution. It is akin to assuming that you can import soil after you have depleted your own. Human ecology matters as much as soil ecology does.
      - eru 4y ago
        Cities have been importing population since the dawn of history. How sustainable do you want sustainable to be?
        Gollapalli 4y ago
        Folks have been importing top soil for a long time too. That doesn't mean that you get to be okay with soil erosion. Or for a better example, folks have been digging wells and building canals for agriculture for as long as civilization has existed. That doesn't mean you get to deplete your aquifers and natural reservoirs. I want sustainable to be sustainable. Responsible societies should be able to maintain and improve the people that they have. Any people imported should be a supplementary augmentation, calculated for sustainable growth and improvement of the society as a whole. An augmentation, a supplement, is very different from a replacement. A replacement is what happens when you have the irresponsible depletion of human capital, and frankly, any immigrant should not want to go to a place where human capital is unsustainably depleted in such a way, as their own offspring are likely to receive the same treatment.

Curzel 4y ago

Agree… only issue might be managers and supervisors coming from manufacturing in Asia, they will have to re-learn how to treat workers, but I am hopeful

bobthepanda 4y ago
I mean, Toyota and Hyundai make cars in the South, so that particular lesson has been learned before
- okdood64 4y ago
  Are we lumping up modern Japanese, Korean and Taiwanese culture into one now?
  - triceratops 4y ago
    Surely in terms of work culture they're more similar to each other than any of them are to North American work culture? That's the culture we're all talking about here.
  - coldtea 4y ago
    From a western perspective, everything people say about the Chinese (regarding culture, "bad products", cheap immitations, low quality, and so on) had been said about the Japanese in the 50s to 70s, the Taiwanese 80s to 90s, and the Koreans 90s to 00ss. In all cases it was followed by "they are now better and cheaper than us" and "they take our jobs". Besides, this discussion is not about their respective cultures in general, but about manufacturing styles and working conditions, which are indeed, and even by necessity, similar. Not that they don't also have shared history, interactions and cultural exchanges going back thousands of years. So, yeah, even that would be more like comparing Argentina and Uruguay, or comparing US and Canada, or France and Belgium, and so on, than some unfathomable comparison.
the_only_law 4y ago
Wasn’t there a documentary about this or something? I swear I’ve seen this premise play out somewhere.
- droidist2 4y ago
  Maybe American Factory (2019) or Gung Ho (1986). The latter isn't a documentary though.
  - the_only_law 4y ago
    I think the former was it. I only caught clips of it, but the previous comment basically summed up what I saw.

logicchains 4y ago

>As an outsider, it seems pretty clear that the rejection to the industry is more about the cultural mismatch than it is to the actual work needing to be executed. Look at Intel. It's a western company, but it famously fell behind its competitors due to offering comparatively shit pay and conditions to its staff, so the best people left. The problem is hardware company culture, not Asian company culture. Apple's M1 is an example of what a company that compensates its staff fairly can achieve in hardware. Hardware companies need to get the idea out of their head that they can pay people shit (even when they've got huge monopoly profits like Intel had) and still expect to remain competitive.

nightski 4y ago
Isn't M1 manufactured by TSMC? Are you saying TSMC has good pay and treats it's workers great? (it might I honestly don't know).
- KerrAvon 4y ago
  I'm not taking a position either way, butI believe the poster is talking about the design/integration phase.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
BeetleB 4y ago
Apple's M1 is an irrelevant comparison. Apple doesn't run a fab. Yes, Intel lost a lot of chip designers, etc, but the submission is about fab related work, which Apple is not involved in.
- elteto 4y ago
  Seeing how Intel hemorrhaged talent that went straight to their competitors, like Apple, I’d say your distinction is not very relevant.
deleted 4y ago

moomin 4y ago

Nissan ran a very successful car manufacturing facility for many years in the U.K. This kind of cultural adaptation is exactly how they did it. And it turns out that Geordies were more than capable of executing “The Nissan Way”.

Apocryphon 4y ago
Another attempt, where Toyota and GM attempted to build a plant together in Fremont, California: https://www.thisamericanlife.org/561/nummi-2015 https://www.thisamericanlife.org/561/nummi-2015
- ForHackernews 4y ago
  Not just an attempt. Toyota is the one of largest employers of Americans in the auto industry today: https://www.thomasnet.com/articles/top-suppliers/car-manufacturers-in-usa/ https://www.thomasnet.com/articles/top-suppliers/car-manufac...
  - Apocryphon 4y ago
    True, they have plenty of plants, I just mean it sounds like NUMMI wasn't as successful as it could've been.
    - vxNsr 4y ago
      According to that story which I’ve listened to before, that partnership had a very specific set of goals, once those goals were achieved or deemed unachievable (as the case may be) the purpose of the plant no longer existed so they shut it down.
      - buescher 4y ago
        That plant is now the Tesla plant.
    - FunnyBadger 4y ago

pm90 4y ago

Why would it lead to dropoffs in quality? I think u are underestimating how much ingenuity workers of all cultures have when its encouraged. Considering the strength of American research universities, I believe that we might see gains in quality and productivity.

madrox 4y ago
I think OP is agreeing with you

dirtyid 4y ago

Since there's several car manufacturing comparisons of American manufacturing adapting to East Asian manufacturing culture, I feel like there's consensus that Japanese built cars still have tighter QC than ones built in North America. Better fit etc, the kind of details in semi and would compound when moving from millimeters to nanometers. My understanding is the commitment for semi technicians / equipment engineers are also much more rigorous, people being practically married to their stations. Hard to say if high-end chip manufacturing processes refined under East Asian sweatshop work culture that's still better than the alternative can be adapated to west. Which is not to say American's can't make chips, perhaps with less efficiency. Which ultimately doesn't matter because semi is being elevated to critical strategic industry and the governemnt's money printer is going to keep US fabs open regardless of how competitive US fabs are.

mensetmanusman 4y ago

It’s true that Americans are less likely to work 16 hours days with low pay. The issue is that the Asian work culture in the tech industry is not sustainable, as seen from their demographic replacement rates. They are burning too hot and the culture will change or they will disappear.

tuatoru 4y ago
Yeah, the next decade is going to be interesting to watch. In Taiwan, for instance, the working age population peaked just five years ago[1], so I doubt that the fact that their worker shortage is permanent and going to get worse has yet sunk in the brains of the management and political class in Taiwan. Give it ten years, they might start understanding what's going on. Based on China's and Japan's responses, they'll have no idea what to do. 1. https://population.un.org/wpp/Graphs/Probabilistic/POP/20-64/158 https://population.un.org/wpp/Graphs/Probabilistic/POP/20-64...
- eru 4y ago
  Taiwan could import labour.
  - Gollapalli 4y ago
    This is not and will never be an effective, sustainable solution. It is akin to assuming that you can import soil after you have depleted your own. Human ecology matters as much as soil ecology does.
    - eru 4y ago
      Cities have been importing population since the dawn of history. How sustainable do you want sustainable to be?
      - Gollapalli 4y ago
        Folks have been importing top soil for a long time too. That doesn't mean that you get to be okay with soil erosion. Or for a better example, folks have been digging wells and building canals for agriculture for as long as civilization has existed. That doesn't mean you get to deplete your aquifers and natural reservoirs. I want sustainable to be sustainable. Responsible societies should be able to maintain and improve the people that they have. Any people imported should be a supplementary augmentation, calculated for sustainable growth and improvement of the society as a whole. An augmentation, a supplement, is very different from a replacement. A replacement is what happens when you have the irresponsible depletion of human capital, and frankly, any immigrant should not want to go to a place where human capital is unsustainably depleted in such a way, as their own offspring are likely to receive the same treatment.