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The Manual for the Mass Surveillance Tool Cops Use to Track Phones
- dsq 4y agoI am curious as to whether the apps that leak data are specific to a certain operating system. That is, are they android-only or iOS-only.
- 3np 4y agoBoth. In general Android exposes more dimensions compared to iOS.
- fsflover 4y agoMore details: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26639261 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26639261.
- kornhole 4y agoPossible sources: -Telcos who use cell tower triangulation -Apple and Google -A huge list of apps that collect location data regardless of OS
- toss1 4y agoSeems the buried lede in the article was this: >>Fog Reveal refers to a company called Venntel as its “data partner,” but neither company would clarify their relationship to the outlet. Motherboard has reported extensively on how Venntel sources global advertising data from its parent company Gravy Analytics. The data itself comes from apps installed on peoples’ smartphones; app developers often enter agreements to sell their users location information to third parties. Venntel then sells its own surveillance product to government agencies, including Customs and Border Protection. Seems this is no particular app, just apps SELLING the location data on to aggregators, who then sell it to Fog, who surface it in their Reveal product. So, no need to identify a person or phone and phish them into installing your tracker. This is just find your crime, ID the phones in the area, and start tracking them based on location data sold into the marketplace... While it's a great capability for the cops, it means that we really are at the point where we've all been sold a covert device to track our every move. (And deleting our Google location history is worthless, as Google has nothing to do with this.)
- 3np 4y agoRelated ongoing thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32690053 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32690053 EFF post: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2022/06/what-fog-data-science-why-surveillance-company-so-dangerous https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2022/06/what-fog-data-science-...
- erdos4d 4y agoI quit carrying my phone out of the house because I knew something like this was coming. I really like it, I look at scenery and actually think about things now. People around me probably think I'm poor as dirt too, so they leave me alone.
- hallway_monitor 4y agoThis is a great idea. I broke my phone in Mexico and it made the last few days a much different, amazing experience.
- alcover 4y agoI only have a dumb phone and I also often leave it at home. I don't get smart phones.. Why carry an addictive computer on yourself ?
- 8bitsrule 4y agoMe too. At one time I considered clipping a battery lead and adding a power switch ... rather than pay to wear an ear-tag ... but leaving it behind just makes more sense.
- maerF0x0 4y agoI do not understand why we accept such low standards from our governments. A warrant should be required. A warrant should be a cryptosecure signed file from the judge(s). The search tool should validate the signatures. The parameters in question should also be signed across and be the only allowed inputs. Also there should be accountability for the reasonable expectation aspect of warrants. A realistic threshold should be enforced... If an officer or judge starts to dip below the threshold they should be seen as incompetent.
- formerly_proven 4y ago> A warrant should be required. A warrant should be a cryptosecure signed file from the judge(s). The search tool should validate the signatures. The parameters in question should also be signed across and be the only allowed inputs. The issues run deeper. Court orders are widely rubberstamped. Circumventing legal processes like this creates a verneer of judicial review that's meaningless, because "judicial review" should not mean "a judge's eyes have scanned the warrant for the signature line he needs to sign on". As a cherry on top, things like the fruit of the poisonous tree doctrine are pretty unique to the US - most countries don't have something like it, or only forbid using evidence if the manner in which it was gathered was too egregiously illegal, but otherwise it doesn't matter if prosecutors obtained evidence legally or not. It doesn't take a genius to see how that's not exactly conducive for the LE system to stay in their legal lane.
- SuperKamiyay 4y ago> should not mean "a judge's eyes have scanned the warrant for the signature line he needs to sign on". We need CAPCHA for warrants!
- ccooffee 4y agoI wonder what would change in the criminal legal system if all warrant applications must be counter-argued by a public-defender-like-role. I suspect the "defender" would just end being an always-ignored voice in the room, at least based on my understanding of post-patriot-act America.
- metadat 4y agoIs there a direct download link to the manual? I wish we knew which apps are contributing user location data to the Fog Feed. This is an egregious abuse of user trust, just to make a buck (or fractions of a penny per user). Do Apple and / or the Google Play Store have policies about this? Are the app developers in breach of ToS?
- O__________O 4y agoPosted a link here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32691723 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32691723
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- mariodiana 4y agoI'm going to propose something crazy. Government shouldn't be allowed to do whatever isn't illegal. Government should not be allowed to do anything unless specifically authorized by law. With respect to electronic surveillance, the methods need to be clearly circumscribed. Anything outside of specific, written guidelines enacted into law should be illegal.
- fsflover 4y agoNow you need to propose how to implement that in a law.
- krapp 4y agoIt already has been - the Fourth Amendment to the US Constitution.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- benlivengood 4y agoThat's pretty much how the U.S. constitution was written. Federalism superceded that in spirit in many ways, and states followed suit.
- advisedwang 4y agoThat's true for the Federal government (although even that has loopholes you could drive a truck through, like exceptions for national security) but not for states. States have general police power and generally can regulate anything unless there it is forbidden.
- therealjumbo 4y agoA state could be a leader and enact that type of provision into their state law or state constitution. Good leadership is hard to find.
- joemazerino 4y agoDegoogled Android would help this but giving your location data up for free is still the caveat.
- advisedwang 4y agoThe article suggests this is not getting data from Google (as that requires a warrant) but from other apps that agreed to add location tracking SDKs.
- joemazerino 4y agoI would argue that the average deGoogled device has less apps and Google Play app bloat to decrease the surveillance surface. Less apps translates to less location data.
- advisedwang 4y agoIt's a question of _which_ bloat! All the google stuff spying on you goes to Google databases, which (at least as far as we know from public info and the news story here) requires a warrent. It's non-Google apps that are sending location data to the 3rd party brokers supplying this tool. deGoogling a phone has nothing to do with these apps.
- O__________O 4y agoDirect link to the PDF of the manual linked to in the article: https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/22273682/fog-data-science-portal-users-manual.pdf https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/22273682/fog-data-sci... Appears the “device IDs” mentioned in the manual are: - Apple’s Identifier for Advertisers (IDFA) or - Android’s Advertising Identifier.
- bagels 4y agoI wonder if this data is being used in trial or being used in warrant applications given that the data can easily be spoofed by providing inaccurate data to these analytics apis?
- AlexandrB 4y agoYou give the legal system way too much credit. When it comes to evidence provided by the police, "spoofed data" is considered an ultra rare edge case not worth considering unless the defense has some excellent evidence to the contrary.
- TechBro8615 4y agoThe dumbest part about this is that it’s only _partial_ dragnet surveillance. They’re surveilling a biased sample of the population that installs sketchy apps on their phones. I’m betting there are more Android users in this dataset than the general population. In a way, by using Android you’re actually increasing your chances of false imprisonment.
- sashahrzg 4y agoAfter listening to some experts speak about this, I don't think that's the case. One cited a lot of large apps as sources of data, especially free apps that offer a good service. Waze keeps getting brought up in this debate as well, though I'm unsure if it is used in this context.
- dontbesilly123 4y ago
- citizenpaul 4y ago>Android you’re actually increasing your chances of false imprisonment. That used to be true until apple implemented CSAM a black box that scans for hashes of straight to federal prison files. Without your consent or any way to audit it. No oversight. Yeah I know its not 100% implemented yet but that is just a matter of time.
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago> until apple implemented CSAM a black box that scans for hashes of straight to federal prison files Of photos uploaded to iCloud. That's a far cry from persistent surveillance.
- smoldesu 4y agoCorrect. The persistent surveillance comes in the form of PRISM compliance and covert warrants that we, the general public, don't get to see. You'd have to be crazy to think the most popular American phone is free from government surveillance.
- michaelmrose 4y agoSome uses that spring to mind. Stalking. Finding out if your significant other is cheating. Finding out who your kid has visiting your house. Finding out who visits the local abortion clinic for shaming, suing, persecuting, and prosecuting. Finding out who visits the local gay clubs. Finding out whose fucking especially when this is valuable blackmail material. Making a list of everyone's religious affiliations because nobody has ever misused THAT before. Keep track of all the abortion clinics and sell lawsuits as a service. Plug in your name and let it tell you if there is anyone you are eligible to collect 10,000 from. Just check a box to have papers sent to your door and theirs and wait while other people harvest their money like they already reaped their privacy. Privacy laws are in need of radical revision and I think I need a new phone. Ideally one that isn't tied to my name and makes voip calls over an out of country vpn.
- citizenpaul 4y agoYou missed one thing. Once your location pops up in one of these things you are now a "person of interest" which is just a fancy way for the police to avoid saying "suspect" You are now in a position forced to defend yourself from guilt rather than them finding something that points to you. Everything about police work is motivated towards finding a reason to pin guilt on you. Nothing is about exonerating you.
- michaelmrose 4y agoYou are absolutely correct and worse the more this tech is used to actually solve cases the fewer crooks will carry their phones and many crimes aren't pinpointed neatly in time. We will know that sometime between Friday afternoon and Saturday morning someone robbed a location and due to imperfection of GPS signals your suspects will include dozens of people including people who walked by 2 streets over. Over time your suspect list will be less and less likely to contain the criminal but it will statistically likely contain at least a few who got in trouble previously especially minorities who can be threatened with 10 to 20 years in jail in order to make them accept 6 months -> probation or risk facing a jury of mostly white people. You can then successfully close tons of cases without finding any actual criminals, doing any real work, or even risking court. And your local businesses get unpaid slave labor rented to them cheap. What a goddamn paradise. All we need is some cotton that needs picking you know or a soul and a shred of decency.
- ilaksh 4y agoSo now the phone is the biggest security problem I have, but all of my data is unlocked with it.. I think I need a smart phone without the actual phone part? But sometimes I need remote data.
- thewebcount 4y agoSerious question - would removing the SIM card do the same thing?
- mikeiz404 4y agoFrom the AP article [1]: > It relies on advertising identification numbers, which Fog officials say are culled from popular cellphone apps such as Waze, Starbucks and hundreds of others that target ads based on a person’s movements and interests, according to police emails. > … > On Monday, the Federal Trade Commission sued a data broker called Kochava that, like Fog, provides its clients with advertising IDs that authorities say can easily be used to find where a mobile device user lives, which violates rules the commission enforces. And there are bills before Congress now that, if passed, would regulate the industry. 1: https://apnews.com/article/technology-police-government-surveillance-d395409ef5a8c6c3f6cdab5b1d0e27ef https://apnews.com/article/technology-police-government-surv...
- ganyu 4y agoWhen people in the U.S. are arguing about why their govts should need a warrant to spy on peoples phones, people in PRC are required to install an app that literally spies on them. Surveillance is really going in its worst way, if there's not a worse one.
- jjwiseman 4y agoThe location tracking industry is getting ready for the real possibility of much stricter legislation coming soon. "Warren proposes sweeping ban on location and health data sales": https://www.theverge.com/2022/6/15/23169718/roe-wade-elizabeth-warren-location-data-tracking-ban-sale-brokers https://www.theverge.com/2022/6/15/23169718/roe-wade-elizabe...
- ccooffee 4y agoThe backing legislation, Health and Location Data Protection Act of 2022 (S.4408), was forwarded to subcommittee on June 15 but hasn't seen any action since [0]. That said, I don't know how quickly the Senate Committee on Commerce, Science, and Transportation moves through things. From skimming the previous meeting agendas [1], it appears that they often take months before discussing bills. It's possible that they will discuss this bill before midterm elections, but I'm doubtful. According to the Senate's schedule [2], the Senate has 33 more working days before midterms. I don't see enough momentum behind this bill to actually get it considered before midterms. Fingers crossed for 2023, though. [0] https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/senate-bill/4408?r=2&s=1 https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/senate-bill/440... [1] https://www.commerce.senate.gov/hearings https://www.commerce.senate.gov/hearings [2] https://www.senate.gov/legislative/resources/pdf/2021_calendar.pdf https://www.senate.gov/legislative/resources/pdf/2021_calend...
- mxuribe 4y agoI'm sure if the location data (and other related data) for those in power and law enforcement leaders were to be made available to everyone, in an easy to digest and display method...I'm sure some of these data flows would be quickly be made illegal, and quickly shut down. ;-)
- narrator 4y agoIs there a way to figure out how good of a job I'm doing avoiding tracking? I don't even think it would be unlawful to ask someone with access to this tool to look ones own phone up to see how much tracking data they are getting.
- nigrioid 4y agoThe rabbit hole goes deep. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17081684 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17081684 I remember a HN post from several years ago where a location data provider left an exposed API or web page that allowed anyone to enter a phone number and see the location of the device in real time, but I can't find it now.